Hmmm....

@Ithillid, can some Escort Carriers be modified to serve as amphibious assault ships? And does the Navy have or envision needing a Marine Corp?

Because if so, I'd like to take dice off the Mastodon and the Tube Arty to develop the Escort Carrier and the Orca Refit concurrently with rolling out the Governor, on the idea that we roll out the Carriers right after the Governors.

That would give the Navy the hulls to conduct naval air support and amphibious assault, giving us an hour man to the OSRCT's minute man--where the OSRCT can deploy anywhere within hours and hold down the fort for a few days, the Navy could deploy a Marine Expeditionary Unit anywhere within weeks and stay there, because they can maintain a seaborne logistics link that isn't vulnerable to triple A/ASAT.
I mean, I think the Navy would tell us if they needed the vessels to launch and support amphibious landings- I suspect it's a role the Navy already has covered given from what they've told us the only thing stopping the hypothetical 'Rescue Raids' to conduct controlled amphibious evacuations into the Blue Zones is the lack of Governors.

I think we've got surprisingly good sealift capabilities even if it hasn't come up. GDI maintains a military presence in pretty much every Blue Zones and a lot of their neighboring Yellow Zones (if intermitten) there's no way you could shift men and material between them purely by air even without Nod or Tiberium weather getting involved.
 
I mean, I think the Navy would tell us if they needed the vessels to launch and support amphibious landings- I suspect it's a role the Navy already has covered given from what they've told us the only thing stopping the hypothetical 'Rescue Raids' to conduct controlled amphibious evacuations into the Blue Zones is the lack of Governors.
Actually I think it would be more accurate to say that the only thing holding them back is a lack of point defence as we already have a bunch of cruisers and other ships from before the war, it's just that because of people being silly when designing them none of them have point defences worth a damn right now.

I'm not saying don't build the Governors, they're pretty vital after all, but point defence refits would be quicker, won't cost capital goods and would make point defences available for things like the fortress towns.
 
Actually I think it would be more accurate to say that the only thing holding them back is a lack of point defence as we already have a bunch of cruisers and other ships from before the war, it's just that because of people being silly when designing them none of them have point defences worth a damn right now.
Actually, according to Word of GM IIRC, we did not have Cruisers before the war.

We had far bigger (and more expensive) Battleships, because they looked more impressive and were great for showing GDI material superiority.
Not really. No. Quite a few of them, but rarely as anything other than a convoy perimeter.

Edit: Basically, prewar naval doctrine was heavily influenced by politics. Which typically emphasized big heavy capital ships to the near exclusion of all else, because that was big and impressive and a mark of GDI's material superiority. Rolling up with a carrier and a handful of battleships was something that GDI could do and generally cowed everyone else into submission. The thing is that NOD turned around and found good ways to counter that, generally with stealth fielded artillery and stealth bomber strikes.
With the new naval command very aware of the problems the fleet had, there is a push towards smaller, lighter, more diversified and more survivable. So cruisers as the mainline combatant and carrier escort. Escort carriers, hydrofoils, and eventually frigate and destroyer weight vessels if needed.
And in the postwar environment, the navy is realizing it can't actually make as many Battleships as it needs to patrol the oceans, so now they want smaller, cheaper Cruisers.
 
Actually, according to Word of GM IIRC, we did not have Cruisers before the war.

We had far bigger (and more expensive) Battleships, because they looked more impressive and were great for showing GDI material superiority.

And in the postwar environment, the navy is realizing it can't actually make as many Battleships as it needs to patrol the oceans, so now they want smaller, cheaper Cruisers.
Huh I forgot about that, still my point does still stand as those big ships are available now rather then in I'm not sure how long it would take to build a Governor so doing PD refits will still be to our advantage for the reasons I've mentioned before and it would count towards our goal of five military deployments.
 
This is presuming both the satellites have no means to maneuver in the face of long range fire, or that our Ion Cannon network designed to intercept and defeat advanced nuclear missile launches won't be able to engage ballistic projectiles lobbed at extreme ranges.

You, certainly do not know IC what works as an effective space defensive system, considering the IC experts who do just got done turning the Ion network against alien assault and have decided the most the immediate step to address that problem is higher orbit defense stations. And literally no one in Space Force has told us to hold off on defensive installations until we get warships. Not when fusion torches became viable, and not when we started playing with reactionless drives. This is literal armchair generalship that ignores any IC expertise on the subject.

Maneuvering thrusters would be a first step, but at some point the threshold becomes "might as well make an actual warship". And you know, point defence usually has more trouble with dumb kinetic projectiles that don't have any warheads that can be prematurely detonated or or delicate control systems that can be burnt out, or heat signatures that can be tracked. Besides, it doesn't actually matter how good at evasion or interception the network is when at the end of the day we would still have no ability to retaliate against an enemy parked outside the effective range of our defences.

Just because the option is presented doesn't actually mean it's worth doing, otherwise we might as well just do whatever because only the order of things matters then.
 
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@Simon_Jester
According to the status page, we've completed the following hubs:
RZ-1 North
RZ-6 North
RZ-6 South
YZ-5a

According to @Crazycryodude's post after the rolls, we are at 49/105 for RZ-7 N (Chicago). Am I missing that we completed RZ-7 S somewhere else?
I must be mistaken; I was relying on a misremembered comment from some time ago in the thread.

Look, I'm not saying that we need to get every bit of overflow we can. But when it is to something that is a very high priority (red zone) or high priority (the first yellow zone to secure red zone military resupply and tiberium exports), it is very nice to have.
Fair enough- but at the same time, there are overarching practical questions.

1) We are definitely completing the YZ-5a fleet, period, end of sentence. We're already too far into committing to it, it serves a strategic purpose, and failure to do so in a timely manner risks handing a victory to the recently named Nod warlord in South America. We'd be leaving money on the table.

2) We are also definitely completing the RZ-7N hub, in preparation to completing the fleet there; it's our next goal.

3) All questions of this aside, we really cannot afford to budget an arbitrary number of dice to MARV construction indefinitely. Three dice is close to a maximum and frankly I'm not sure we should even be sustaining three indefinitely. It's making the difference between a rapid military upgrade cycle and a rapid upgrade cycle as it is, and I'd really like to get through the backlog of immediately post-TWIII upgrades as fast as possible now that we're committed to funding that seriously.

Because of (1) we don't want to wait more than about 1-2 more turns to finish the YZ-5a fleet. Because of (2) we want the RZ-7N hub finished soon... But because of (3), we're realistically not going to do much on the RZ-7N fleet until the YZ-5a fleet is finished.

This gives rise to the basic logic of "one die on the hub, two dice on the fleet."

I would note that we also now have a decently sized pure Socialist Party, so there clearly is a slide towards support for the planned economy— and if we continue to do well, I expect that to only grow.
We'll see how the Socialists' support for us breaks down at the start of the Third Plan. They may be planned economy fanboys, they may not, it may depend.

I will say, though...

No.

It's a slide towards 'do not let corporations be a bunch of dicks, and protect the right of the workers to not be abused for the sake of another's profit'. Subtle difference.

The Market Socialists especially don't care about whether or not the economy is a planned one or not, so long as it functions, but the Socialist Party is not going to go all 'planned economy hurray, now everything shall be good and better'. They too want things to actually get better, focusing on the lot of the general population and the most deprived among them. The centralized command/planned economy? That is one of a number of ways they will consider as ways to make it happen.

If the planned/command economy can be proven to be at best detrimental and possibly outright harmful to the goals of the Socialist Party, said party is going to drop it as a way to get things done.
That I think this projects a bit much.

The Market Socialists and Socialists are separate parties. They almost certainly have a fundamental incompatibility or they'd have joined to form a united party list, one that would be very powerful and influential. Instead they form two smaller weaker parties that can be played off each other, and there's probably a reason for that.

I'm pretty sure it's "Market." Socialists who favor a planned economy are overwhelmingly likely to be in the one-word Socialist Party; socialists who think the planned economy is inefficient and would like to open it up considerably- just with collectivized ownership of the means of production, rather than privatization of the planned economy into privately owned major corporations like the leadership of the old Free Market Party.
 
I'm pretty sure it's "Market." Socialists who favor a planned economy are overwhelmingly likely to be in the one-word Socialist Party; socialists who think the planned economy is inefficient and would like to open it up considerably- just with collectivized ownership of the means of production, rather than privatization of the planned economy into privately owned major corporations like the leadership of the old Free Market Party.
This pretty much.
The socialists are the party of more or less centrally planned toothbrushes. The Market Socialists are more along the lines of splitting the economy up into sectors, some of which, like heavy industry, utilities, and the like, are so structurally anticompetitive that it makes sense to fit them under the government, while leaving others, such as light industry and services, to markets.
 
Word on the Discord (last I checked) is that we're going to be getting a bunch of new and exciting options next turn, including more research options. But in the meantime, how about I pretend that's not gonna happen and post my own very-extra-early plan?

[] Plan Totally Subject To Change
-[] Infrastructure 5/5 dice 55R
--[] Tidal Power Plants (Phase 2) 0/400 4 dice 40R (4/6 dice for median chance.)
--[] Yellow Zone Arcologies (Phase 1) 136/170 1 die 97% 15R
-[] Heavy Industry 5/5 dice 60R
--[] Heavy Rolling Stock Plants 171/250 1 die 10R 55%
--[] Fusion Peaker Plants 172/240 1 die 20R 66%
--[] North Boston Chip Fabrication (Phase 4) 64/1200 2 dice 30R (2/16.5 dice for median chance.)
--[] Heavy Industrial Enterprise Grants 1 die auto
-[] Light and Chemical Industry 4/4 dice 50R
--[] Chemical Precursor Plants 36/200 2 dice 30R 34%
--[] Johannesburg Myomer Macrospinner (phase 1) 73/90 1 die 20R 100%
--[] Light Industrial Enterprise Grants 1 die auto
-[] Agriculture 3/3 dice 30R
--[] State Operated Breweries 85/125 1 die 10R 91%
--[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays 278/350 2 dice 20R 97%
-[] Tiberium 5/5 dice 100R
--[] Chicago Planned City (Phase 3) 49/320? 5 Tib dice 100R 99%
-[] Orbital Industry 3/3 dice 60R
--[] GDSS Enterprise (Phase 3) 68/390 3 dice 60R (3/5 dice for median chance.)
-[] Services 4/4 dice 30R
--[] Fashion development houses 0/225 2 dice 20R 13%
--[] Game Development Studios 0/300 2 dice 10R (2/4 dice for median chance.)
-[] Military 5/5 dice +6 Free 145-170R
--[] Reclaimator Hub Red Zone 7-North 49/105 1 die 20R 75%
--[] Super MARV Reclaimator Fleet (YZ-5a) 88/210 2 dice 40R 72%
--[] Zone Suit Factories 0/60 1 die 15R 71%
--[] Orbital Strike Regimental Combat Team Station 0/225 1 die 20R (1/3.5 dice for median chance.)
--[] Deployment Stuff ??? 5 dice 50-75R
--[] Security Review
-[] Bureaucracy 3/3 dice
--[] Security Reviews (Military) DC60 3 dice 100%

Total cost: 530-555R/540R, 6/6 Free Dice

-Does stuff. Options picked cuz I wanna do them. Notably, now that the elections are over this starts up those Grant programs so we can keep chugging along on Consumer Goods and eventually restart taxes and stuff. (Not the Housing grant tho. We're not gonna be doing those anytime soon.) Everything else, again, cuz I wanna do them.
I'm iffy on the grants because we're still slamming up against our resource limits and there are still plenty of +Consumer Goods options coming down the pike for the planned economy. If we had an average of more like 17.5 R/die in the budget instead of 14 R/die I'd be less anxious about that.

Doing Grants means we sacrifice a lot of our ability to do things like R&D or extensive work on Chicago or space stations... or that we leave a lot of dice fallow to pay for those things.
 
Hey, a random worrying thought:

When Tiberium mutates and it starts gaining (more than it does now anyway), Starbound will start having spats with Developmentalists over which territory should get more funding: strengthening the shrinking earth or the promise of living across stars.

Not a worry yet, but it won't be long, and if they team up now, then they can start fracturing before next election.
 
I'm iffy on the grants because we're still slamming up against our resource limits and there are still plenty of +Consumer Goods options coming down the pike for the planned economy. If we had an average of more like 17.5 R/die in the budget instead of 14 R/die I'd be less anxious about that.

Doing Grants means we sacrifice a lot of our ability to do things like R&D or extensive work on Chicago or space stations... or that we leave a lot of dice fallow to pay for those things.
I'm pretty sure we'd only do one if any; we don't have the resource surpluss to do two. I just like the idea of Dr. Granger really sticking it to the FMP by starting up both Grants programs immediately after the election. :V

It's important to note that the Grants program eventually starts generating taxes and other benefits, and since it takes a long time to wind up it shouldn't be put off forever. But it's difficult to find a good spot to do them...
 
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Hey, a random worrying thought:

When Tiberium mutates and it starts gaining (more than it does now anyway), Starbound will start having spats with Developmentalists over which territory should get more funding: strengthening the shrinking earth or the promise of living across stars.

Not a worry yet, but it won't be long, and if they team up now, then they can start fracturing before next election.

Would not surprise me. I think we're going to get into it with the Socialists at some point. Basically standard purity test nonsense.
 
I need to see how much cap good the cruiser yards require (and how much energy they take) but I can shift dice off of boston to rolling if it looks like we need that. Fusion breaker I am slow rolling though


Hmm I could go 3 on Shala to make it easier to finish phase 2 Shala next turn, as that is a goal of mine since it provides several benefits. 1) it reduces the amount of supplies that need to be shipped into orbit since food can be grown in space for the existing stations which reduces a potential vulnerability (supply getting interdicted). 2) it better supports future space expansions (such as space housing or orbital drop regiments) 3) it gives us +10 PS and well the last time we had high PS we got options to make tech rollout faster (and in turn do research sooner) and +1 LCI which are fairly major benefits.
Yeah, makes sense. I get why some people want to beeline Enterprise Phase 3 this turn instead of Shala, and there are arguments for either way... but we should pick one or the other and commit to it, is all I'm saying. Your arguments, though, are why I favor Shala.

I am skipping a dice for ASAT phase 3 this turn to try and rollout some of the mil projects we did this turn and given that I want 4 dice working in orbital since we will need orbital evac as unless we get the TCN (Kane or very good luck on Scrin research) we will have to leave Earth behind to survive so picking up the general pace seems like a good idea (also it kind of works with the free dice from the phily boosting how much orbital work we get done each turn).
For the record, I'm fine with averaging 4 dice on Orbital per turn, but I don't want to commit to that every turn because realistically we'll never stick to it. This turn in particular, for instance, I wanted to surge Military because I'm trying to close the gap we dug ourselves into with the first Plan as fast as possible, which is hard to do without either stopping MARV construction or spending a LOT of free dice.

I also wanted to slow down station construction a bit and try to push orbital clearance, because that frees up resources for NEXT turn, giving us a turn of comfortable surplus that we can use to fund R&D projects and so on without sacrifices... while also making sure we have the resources THIS turn to do a MARV surge along with the rest of the military buildup.

Spending 60 Resources a turn on MARVs when we only get a 25 RpT income boost out of it every few turns really is kind of cramping our style, I fear, though it is paying off and I don't regret doing it so far.

One reason I might want a plan that goes for one-and-one on MARV construction is just to free up those 20 RP for the (likely expensive) research work.
 
Spending 60 Resources a turn on MARVs when we only get a 25 RpT income boost out of it every few turns really is kind of cramping our style, I fear, though it is paying off and I don't regret doing it so far.

One reason I might want a plan that goes for one-and-one on MARV construction is just to free up those 20 RP for the (likely expensive) research work.
MARV also add 3 mit each fleet and they increase control of the world, with the YZ hubs adding population to us and away from NOD weakening NOD in the long run. We need the RZ fleets to more consistently push back the RZ before we start losing major ground from mutation.

As for orbital- I have 4 fusion dice used in orbital next turn (3 on stations and 1 on orbital cleaning).
 
Hmmm....

@Ithillid, can some Escort Carriers be modified to serve as amphibious assault ships? And does the Navy have or envision needing a Marine Corp?

Because if so, I'd like to take dice off the Mastodon and the Tube Arty to develop the Escort Carrier and the Orca Refit concurrently with rolling out the Governor, on the idea that we roll out the Carriers right after the Governors.
Best not try to do both of those at the exact same time. Building two sets of shipyards simultaneously is likely to strain our reserves of Energy and Capital Goods. And escort carriers, especially ones designed to operate VTOL craft like Orcas, are going to be smaller and quicker/easier to build than Governors in all likelihood, and thus able to be finished faster. Best to get the Governors running out of at least one shipyard, THEN work on the carriers, THEN the Orcas to fly off them.

That would give the Navy the hulls to conduct naval air support and amphibious assault, giving us an hour man to the OSRCT's minute man--where the OSRCT can deploy anywhere within hours and hold down the fort for a few days, the Navy could deploy a Marine Expeditionary Unit anywhere within weeks and stay there, because they can maintain a seaborne logistics link that isn't vulnerable to triple A/ASAT.
I will note that GDI has never had much trouble delivering amphibious troops to a beachhead, ever since Tiberium War I...

MARV also add 3 mit each fleet and they increase control of the world, with the YZ hubs adding population to us and away from NOD weakening NOD in the long run. We need the RZ fleets to more consistently push back the RZ before we start losing major ground from mutation.
I mean, you're not wrong, and I'm not saying MARV fleets are worthless or useless or not worth it.

But it's a big price to pay, and we should admit that it's forcing us to make sacrifices, sacrifices we may not always be able to afford in full measure.

MARVs are important, but they're not the only important thing we're doing.

I just want to be clear on that.

As for orbital- I have 4 fusion dice used in orbital next turn (3 on stations and 1 on orbital cleaning).
Yeah, I know. Personally I might go two-and-two this turn and three next, or something like that. Or put all free dice on military, like I said.
 
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Given that GDI apparently monofocused on the capital ships to the point that a cruiser-weight ship is considered a reasonably smaller step, I'm not sure we can count on properly modern amphibious assault ships.

Ok, I think I get what you're really trying say here. You're saying we need to build a new, even BIGGER class of ship. One so massive and expensive that its mere existence causes the treasury to shrivel and NOD to unconditionally surrender. Brilliant! Ok, secret message received. And I for one support your bold, quintessentially GDI plan. Now all we need is a name for the class of ship. White elephant class? Glutton class?
 
Ok, I think I get what you're really trying say here. You're saying we need to build a new, even BIGGER class of ship. One so massive and expensive that its mere existence causes the treasury to shrivel and NOD to unconditionally surrender. Brilliant! Ok, secret message received. And I for one support your bold, quintessentially GDI plan. Now all we need is a name for the class of ship. White elephant class? Glutton class?
He's saying that our amphibious assault capacity has likely degraded, and that GDI depends on retrofitted freighters to conduct such, rather than using dedicated platforms. Besides, we already have beachheads in the form of the blue zones, so many of the GDI aren't probably thinking about launching amphibious invasion.
 
Well, if we have to build amphibs, we can. Just a matter of prioritizing- for reasons I've already discussed, I think that should still be Governors first, then carriers with modernized Orcas, then (if necessary) amphibious warfare ships.
 
Best to get the Governors running out of at least one shipyard, THEN work on the carriers, THEN the Orcas to fly off them.
Honestly, I think it's better to get the refitted Orcas before the Carriers. After all, those help the Air Force elsewhere whilst the carrier numbers build up, and depending on just what the refit and other improvement options are, it might make the escort carrier design more optimised for the Orcas it'll actually be using.
 
He's saying that our amphibious assault capacity has likely degraded, and that GDI depends on retrofitted freighters to conduct such, rather than using dedicated platforms. Besides, we already have beachheads in the form of the blue zones, so many of the GDI aren't probably thinking about launching amphibious invasion.

Sorry, yeah, I know I was attempting to crack a joke. I should know better than to think it would be obvious in text form, on the internet. Clearly, TripleTango was suggesting nothing of the sort, but it amuses me to think of the GDI admirals no doubt still out there dreaming of colossal capital ships to solve all problems, hearing what they want to hear and wilfully misinterpreting what was said. What I suggested about an ultra-mega-battleship in our present situation would be a terrible idea for any number of reasons, and would not address the need for amphibious landing craft, if such a need exists.
 
Maneuvering thrusters would be a first step, but at some point the threshold becomes "might as well make an actual warship". And you know, point defence usually has more trouble with dumb kinetic projectiles that don't have any warheads that can be prematurely detonated or or delicate control systems that can be burnt out, or heat signatures that can be tracked. Besides, it doesn't actually matter how good at evasion or interception the network is when at the end of the day we would still have no ability to retaliate against an enemy parked outside the effective range of our defences.

Just because the option is presented doesn't actually mean it's worth doing, otherwise we might as well just do whatever because only the order of things matters then.
So once again you, based off your literal armchair understanding of the matter involved, are dismissing the trained personnel involved IC as being misguided because you decided as much. Never mind you can track the trajectory of the immense heat and energy given off by a hostile warship firing its guns. Never mind the value in stopping a kinetic bombardment of Earth with point defense.

It's a matter of priorities, and necessities not our generals being incompetent who need our masterful and uninformed foresight to tell them what they really need. The only reservations we've IC seen for the project is that it will not help the overstretched military commitments on the ground. Our officers in the Space Force have no doubt whatsoever of the relevancy of defensive Ion Cannon emplacements against Devastators, Planetary Assault Carriers, and Motherships. Regardless of what amounts to a paper pusher insisting they're irrelevant in the face of a hypothetical enemy deciding to kinetically bombard their defenses. Because it's not like GDI, the faction that practically fetishizes rail guns and firepower didn't consider the possibility of railguns and their range being a factor in space when they chose to make Ion Cannon stations rather than spinal railgun stations. Your argument is predicated on being literally the first person in GDI to ask out loud 'what if the other spacefaring civilization has rail guns too?'. Forgive me if I'm unimpressed.
 
We do know that GDI has landing craft for that they use for amphibious assaults, as we see one in the Tib Wars campaign during the start of the Langley AFB mission. It appears to be some sort of hovercraft, that drops off troops quickly before GTFO. While it doesn't seem to have any weapons, but it does have a large capacity, dropping off 7 infantry units.
 
Besides the military i am looking forward to what priority the Interdepartmental Communication Initiative gives to the Kure Machine Works.
And if the military has spider cotton as one of their priorities.
 
Honestly, I think it's better to get the refitted Orcas before the Carriers. After all, those help the Air Force elsewhere whilst the carrier numbers build up, and depending on just what the refit and other improvement options are, it might make the escort carrier design more optimised for the Orcas it'll actually be using.
Suppose we develop the escort carriers and the Orca refit in the same turn.

Getting the Orcas refitted is, probably, a 150-300 point project that we can wrap up in a turn or two if we really try... at which point all frontline Orcas everywhere are refitted. Even before that point, many if not all new-build Orcas will be refitted models. This follows the pattern established by, say, the point defense refit, or the railgun refits we did to our tanks during the First Plan.

By contrast, building the escort carriers will entail a shipyard that can be built in about 1-2 quarters if we try. It will probably require less dice progress than refitting all Orcas everywhere in the world, but even after we build the shipyard it'll take time to spool up and produce enough escort carriers to matter on a global level.

So in conclusion, if we started the Orcas and escort carriers simultaneously and really tried to do both, we'd likely have Orcas to put on the carriers well before we had enough of the carriers themselves. The carriers are the longer-lead item and should be designed and put into motion first.
 
So in conclusion, if we started the Orcas and escort carriers simultaneously and really tried to do both, we'd likely have Orcas to put on the carriers well before we had enough of the carriers themselves. The carriers are the longer-lead item and should be designed and put into motion first.
But the new Orca's will also go onto the existing fleet carriers so if we do orca's first the navy benefits from that.
 
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