Well I see lots of people complaining war is hard so we must be losing going on. Definitely seeing a streak of the kind of thinking that gave NOD so much territory in the first place. Hold what we have and stay close to home territory thinking. This has historically been a stalling tactic. Your trying to counter a literal half century of that kind of thinking as a major Quest theme. Life imitating art there.

Most of the problems in South America that aren't the sheer effectiveness of the opponent's leadership seem to be that the place is infested with jingoistic social generals and the politicians that feed their egos. They all think they are more effective than the really are. I fear they are running normal mode AI rather than hard mode AI. Sometimes the RTS protagonist isn't a born masochist. I fear SA is going to require taking Mexico and Central America to bypass those guys.

Europe is going as well as can be expected and Spain is clean up at this point. That they've lost so much land and resorted to poison pill refugees is a sign of knowing its regionally a lost cause. months to a year from now it will be a messy, but over, part of the past if your intel and security forces don't start doublefisting idiot balls as a staple food. If your lucky some of them will join the chiller NOD political faction within GDI that just wants the the people outside the blue zones to be good stewards of the rest of population. Better, if you can take those islands south of France, west of Sardinia and east of Spain, you may open up a new area for those mobile tiberian rigs that is a safe enough zone. Also eastern Spain would be a good spot for a hydrofoil factory/base.

South eastern North America (and more really) is just going to be open for expansion. Just remember to actually start filling it and western Europe so you can solidify your gains.

Navy is still less than wanted. Just remember that it was the victim on opportunity costs. The first director you operated had to rebuild the economy. The second has been expanding on that and this huge offensive came up. If your going to engage in hindsight for how you could have had a better Navy, also remember to have something that you feel was a waste that should have had the funds sent off to the Navy instead. Otherwise your likely to end up arguing against having the funds to pay for your retroactive Naval expansion you now wanted back then.

Take this as an opportunity to counter your need to feel regret in advance this time. The Navy has had the most real issue with subs and don't seem to see it that way. No deployed detection grid of some kind. No sonar upgrade that is better at detecting stealth subs. Less interest in subhunter platforms that capital ships. I don't even recall them having subs in the first place. I mean I'm seeing the opportunity in the past requiring less tiberium mining basically and you would have needed to slow tiberium mining efforts by years to the extent the green zones would likely not have been a thing for years more than they took to be here.

I'm also confused why the navy didn't argue for a section of the regular budget transfers to have been put into dockyard expansion and retrofitting in first place. Probably a bureaucratic thing. I personally consider the Navy leadership to be closer to SA's leadership than anyone should want them to be. May just be me though.

---

One of the big reasons to research the tarberry is that your actively pursuing getting to places without oil or tiberium in the first place. You know SPAAAACE!! Once you have the base model you can always make variant plants for things like vines/berries that grow lubricant base products. Like the silk vegetation type plants, this means you can grow supplies on your prospective motherships or off Earth bases That or make petrochemical fertilizers from plants that feed off that agricultural run off. At type of plant that filters your agricultural run off into berries that can then be juiced for the fertilizer for the rest of the plants, sounds like a good use of resources. Base some off a cranberry, grow them in a marsh environment, then food the place and skim off the berries. Drain and repeat. Do it right and you can drone the process. Grow, flood, skim, repeat. Stick the Berries in a bucket conveyor and dump it in the processing juicer and use that as the base for the food for the rest of the system.

Note I'm saying cranberries for the seed release method. Splice that into a vine and you can just flood the entire chamber for harvesting purposes. Never have to have them touched by human hands and the skimmer harvestor is basically just a board on tracks on the ceiling.
 
The way I see it, this is a "war" because we have 4-5+ regional campaigns going simultaneously where both sides are trying to take the offensive. If Nod wasn't trying to kick things off, it'd just be "Operation Steel Vanguard" rather than a war. If we didn't do anything and just one warlord tried to kick things off, it would be a regional campaign. It's the near simultaneous kick off of several Nod Warlords against us that, I think, make it a war. "Unified" Nod activity on a global level is probably a decent indicator on whether something counts as a war, a regional campaign, or a major GDI offensive. If Kane is in command determines if it's a regular war or a Tiberium War.

Continued mopping up in Western Europe or renewed offensives in the American South won't necessarily require the war still be on (and we're probably looking at 1-3 turns before the South offensive starts again). They'll probably be tied to the war historically, but not necessarily "part" of it - perhaps in an "Aftermath" section of the wiki entry for the war. Though the war might continue as long as the Middle East clashes do, so could allow for other operations to restart or conclude within the "official" war time span.

I'm also confused why the navy didn't argue for a section of the regular budget transfers to have been put into dockyard expansion and retrofitting in first place. Probably a bureaucratic thing. I personally consider the Navy leadership to be closer to SA's leadership than anyone should want them to be. May just be me though.
Considering all the military program boondoggles over the decades and centuries (whether they deserve to be called such or not), some of which made it very far along (Maus, M7 medium, M8 AGS, etc), it seems like an easy way to score brownie points from citizens by making sure certain parts of procurement aren't in military hands. There won't be billions of dollars spent on a program only to toss it out the window (see most US Army programs from the last 1-2 decades). Won't spend millions building factories to build something and then cancel it (see M7 medium and M8 AGS). Gotta sell the Treasury on your development project for a new <insert system here>. Then you gotta sell them on the result being important enough to get factories/dockyards built or built sooner, or for the retrofits to be funded.

That's the approach I took when I was writing an "article" on how procurement ended up this way (that I've yet to release...). Treasury got certain powers over procurement while part of GDI for streamlining financial efforts (Treasury forming due to GDI having to step in more in a gov't role due to failing countries as Tiberium spread worsened), GDI forgot all of those powers hadn't been pulled back when UN spun the Treasury off to be "independent" of GDI (because the UN was to a degree becoming concerned that GDI was basically a country with multiple countries' representation in the UN), and the UN would decide that, no, GDI didn't need that authority back. Some changes would be made to give the military more say over things in the 2020s after Treasury and UN oversight commission overruled their decision and it led to a major waste of money (only giving us the Hover MLRS). Eventually, the UN would "merge" with GDI and the Treasury would technically return to it, but the authority over such things remained with them instead of going back to the military side.
 
As the consumable stockpiles deplete, Steel Vanguard will wind down. It is possible to stave off the end of Steel Vanguard by rushing all of the consumables projects, however, that would mean either delaying the roll out of the wingmen and shipyards, or pulling dice from HI and slowing down our Energy and Capital Goods production. That would be a mistake in my opinion, as we need the Energy and Capital Goods for the wingmen and shipyards, which we need to bolster our air force and navy. That is not to say we shouldn't invest in the consumables to extend Steel Vanguard, but dropping the wingmen and factories to rush all of them seems unwise. I'm not sure exactly what the right balance is between focusing on the wingmen and shipyards and rushing the consumables is.

Still Steel Vanguard is not the only operation that supports the Regency War, nor is YZ harvesting the only project that supports Steel Vanguard. There is obviously Eastern Paris, but until our naval situation improves it is non viable. Autumn Archer is supported by Chicago, SADN and BZ Marv Hubs. Chicago would be something to consider as our consumables stockpiles run low as it heavily boxes Gideon into the American South. I'm not sure if Phase 5 is something to push for, but Phase 4 is definitely achievable. SADN is something to look at when we have the wingmen and shipyards done, which should line up roughly as the consumables stockpiles run down. The BZ Marv Hubs I'm less enthused about, maybe BZ 8, the South American one, if Stahl continues to press, but we do have other priorities. Also, BZ Marv Hubs aren't the best source of income especially towards the end of a Plan [1].

Even with the end of Steel Vanguard I see no reason not to continue to invest in more Rail, fortresses and GZ intensification as all will help secure our newly held territory. As for the YZ Harvesting, that is the GDI offensive button, and once our stocks of consumables dwindle it is going to be more difficult to continue hammering it like we have been. Currently we have a turn or two before the guided shell stockpiles are depleted and 2-3 turns for standard shells, with the other consumables undergoing similar depletion. I am of the opinion that next turn we put 2-3 dice on Shell Plants to maintain that most critical stockpile. 2 would give us 72% chance, 3 98%. I favor 2 here as we still have time before our stockpiles are expended and we need dice elsewhere. Then the turn after completing either Ablat or URLS, and Q1 2061 the other. However, it still seems likely that we will need to put a pause in the advance in 2-3 turns as unless we drop everything to finish the consumables, one of the stockpiles will run out and we will need to slow down operations due to the decreased availability. I don't think we should drop the shipyards and wingmen for the consumables. It is an option, but our ground forces are still holding strong. Further, even if we had to call a halt right now, we have isolated Reynaldo and broken up Gideon's territory, which has severely weakened Nod's ability to strike at BZ 1, 2, 3, 5, and 11. That is a major win in my book. Still I could see a plan that goes for an even spread of 2 dice on each consumable, though it would be at the expense of either the wignmen or shipyards.

In any event even if we successfully stave off the consumables shortage, I don't see this war continuing in its currently active state beyond Q4 2061. To do so we would need to continue heavily investing in YZ Harvesting, which is not economically viable post reallocation. YZ Harvesting is the worst project to use for building an economy. It has the worst income per die ratio, the worst income per R ratio and the worst net R by current Plan end or over a full Plan of all currently available RpT generation projects [1]. In other words, if we want to rebuild our RpT income once reallocation occurs, we will need to dramatically slow down YZ Harversting if not stop it entirely. This is besides the fact that YZ Harvesting is not the only project we would need to invest in to maintain Steel Vanguard.

Another look at the Income Project Analysis below shows that certain projects are more cost effective now then the would be post reallocation. In particular the Rail Gun Harvesters and GZ Intensification, both of which support Steel Vanguard. Both of those projects currently make more R over the remainder of the plan compared to YZ Marvs or Regolith Mines. However in the next Plan the latter two would make more R over that plan then the former two. So those as well as the YZ Harvesting will be less of a priority compared to other sources of income post reallocation.

[1]
CategoryProjectCurrent ProgressProgress TargetCost Per DieAverage DiceTotal CostAverage IncomeIncome Per Die InvestedIncome Per R InvestedNet R By End of PlanNet R Over a Full Plan
TiberiumTiberium Glacier Mines Stage 13
38​
180​
30​
2​
60​
50​
25​
0.8333​
190​
690​
TiberiumTiberium Vein Mines Stage 2
5​
195​
20​
2​
40​
25​
12.5​
0.625​
85​
335​
TiberiumRed Zone Tiberium Harvesting Stage 12
29​
130​
25​
1​
25​
15​
15​
0.6​
50​
200​
MilitaryMARV Hub RZ
0​
335​
20​
4​
80​
25​
6.25​
0.3125​
45​
295​
OrbitalLunar Heavy Metals Mines Phase 2
145​
385​
20​
3​
60​
20​
6.6667​
0.3333​
40​
240​
TiberiumIntensification of Green Zone Harvesting Phase 6
46​
100​
15​
1​
15​
7.5​
7.5​
0.5​
22.5​
97.5​
TiberiumRailgun Harvester Factories Porto
44​
70​
10​
1​
10​
5​
5​
0.5​
15​
65​
TiberiumRailgun Harvester Factories Bissau
0​
70​
10​
1​
10​
5​
5​
0.5​
15​
65​
TiberiumRed Zone Containment Lines Stage 6
54​
200​
25​
2​
50​
12.5​
6.25​
0.25​
12.5​
137.5​
OrbitalLunar Regolith Harvesting Phase 2
50​
330​
20​
4​
80​
15​
3.75​
0.1875​
-5​
145​
MilitaryMARV Hub YZ
0​
335​
20​
4​
80​
15​
3.75​
0.1875​
-5​
145​
OrbitalLunar Rare Metals Harvesting Phase 1
0​
160​
20​
2​
40​
5​
2.5​
0.125​
-15​
35​
MilitaryMARV Hub BZ 1
39​
335​
20​
4​
80​
10​
2.5​
0.125​
-30​
70​
MilitaryMARV Hub BZ 2
58​
335​
20​
4​
80​
10​
2.5​
0.125​
-30​
70​
MilitaryMARV Hub BZ
0​
335​
20​
4​
80​
10​
2.5​
0.125​
-30​
70​
TiberiumYellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting Phase 9
2​
325​
20​
4​
80​
7.5​
1.875​
0.09375​
-42.5​
32.5​
 
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Wow, we really messed up naval production.

At some point we are going to have to revisit Karachi, because it's an important decision. Right now, we can focus on rebuilding the Navy until their response to Karachi isn't "Ha ha ha NO".
The main problem the Navy has is that with Nod naval raiding this active all over the world, they need every ship they can get on convoy escort (and then some). There's no strategic reserve left over to commit to large-scale, sustained operations like "clear the eastern half of the Arabian Sea of Nod forces and start plowing airstrikes and missiles and railgun barrages onto the coasts of Nod-held India and Pakistan."

The situation might not be so unfavorable if we weren't dealing with a huge resurgence of Nod activity all over the world that puts the navy in even higher demand than normal, at a time when effectively nothing is coming off the slipways except Governors, hydrofoils, and now the new conversion carriers coming up.

Things could actually look quite different 18 months from now, with the first tranches of Sharks hitting the water, Nod's raiding forces having pulled in their horns somewhat, and the general pressure of Steel Vanguard reduced... even if nothing else changes.

Well I see lots of people complaining war is hard so we must be losing going on. Definitely seeing a streak of the kind of thinking that gave NOD so much territory in the first place. Hold what we have and stay close to home territory thinking. This has historically been a stalling tactic. Your trying to counter a literal half century of that kind of thinking as a major Quest theme. Life imitating art there.

Most of the problems in South America that aren't the sheer effectiveness of the opponent's leadership seem to be that the place is infested with jingoistic social generals and the politicians that feed their egos. They all think they are more effective than the really are. I fear they are running normal mode AI rather than hard mode AI. Sometimes the RTS protagonist isn't a born masochist. I fear SA is going to require taking Mexico and Central America to bypass those guys.
Ehh, GDI is a global organization and can replace incompetents... But seriously I think the problem is just that once in a while you're up against a Hannibal, and he makes your armies look like idiots for a while. There's always theoretically some weakness on your own side that such a commander is exploiting, but focusing on that weakness can easily devolve into self-hatred or internal witchhunts. Which wastes energy that should instead be spent on trapping that enemy super-general in a situation where his options are limited. Even the greatest military genius of all time can't accomplish much if he's trapped in a twenty foot deep pit. He's stuck scrabbling uselessly at the sides just like the next man.

Take this as an opportunity to counter your need to feel regret in advance this time. The Navy has had the most real issue with subs and don't seem to see it that way. No deployed detection grid of some kind. No sonar upgrade that is better at detecting stealth subs. Less interest in subhunter platforms that capital ships. I don't even recall them having subs in the first place. I mean I'm seeing the opportunity in the past requiring less tiberium mining basically and you would have needed to slow tiberium mining efforts by years to the extent the green zones would likely not have been a thing for years more than they took to be here.

I'm also confused why the navy didn't argue for a section of the regular budget transfers to have been put into dockyard expansion and retrofitting in first place. Probably a bureaucratic thing. I personally consider the Navy leadership to be closer to SA's leadership than anyone should want them to be. May just be me though.
I think you're missing some points here. The Navy may well have quite adequate antisubmarine equipment. It doesn't matter, because they need platforms. You cannot maintain an adequate ASW patrol against enemy submarine raiders if you are so short on ships of any kind that you're limited to like one or two ships per convoy.

Autumn Archer is supported by Chicago, SADN and BZ Marv Hubs.
Autumn Archer is going to be meaningless by the time Steel Vanguard winds down. That operational name was always code for "get ready to tank Nod's attacks during the Regency War," hence the choice of projects that would fortify Blue Zones. But Steel Vanguard is in the process of pushing the frontiers back and trashing Nod's reserve forces, so there won't be any big heavy Nod attacks.

With that said, we need to do SADN anyway, because sooner or later Nod's gonna try WMD attacks against our centers of industry and we have few other useful counters to that. We've blown up too much of their troop capacity, so they have to hit us in other ways if they don't want to just give up as we tech up.

Even with the end of Steel Vanguard I see no reason not to continue to invest in more Rail, fortresses and GZ intensification as all will help secure our newly held territory.
We have a commitment to build arcologies and are running short of turns in which to do it without being rushed. Our huge Logistics surplus is more than adequate after the intense military pressure of Steel Vanguard slows down a bit, so we need to think carefully about what we spend Infrastructure dice on. Especially since the last turns of 2061 are going to be the last chance we have for a long time to fund Suborbital Shuttles...
 
Which means that Erewhon has rolled well on his 'AI ratings'.

Probably on Usefulness, but might also be Stability. Frankly, I'd prefer Stability. Poor bugger doesn't deserve the mess he's in.


Also, regard the South America campaign? General Escoffier, the GDI general that was in charge of the theater, was rather competent. Not necessarily brilliant, not everybody is a McNeil or a Solomon, but competent. His attempt to hit Rosario was politically motivated, pushed by GDI political figures to sway the narrative. Without that, he likely would've made a more modest, broad advance, and Stahl would've likely accepted that. He didn't permit his troops to get closer than 100 kilometer to GDI's borders for a reason.

And on top of that, just the Puerto Madryn cost Stahl 1/3rd of the forces dedicated there. These are ruinous losses. RAF Bomber Command during WW2 averaged about 6% losses per mission, about a 5th as many, and it was understood to be at the absolute edge of what Bomber Command could lose and remain combat effective. Vertigos and the aircrew flying them aren't cheap, nor are they easy to replace. The Vertigo wing that hit Puerto Madryn is effectively destroyed even before you account for the repairs the 26 aircraft that survived the air defense envelope need. The damage can and will be replaced, of course, but if Stahl took similar losses across the forces he used to strike at GDI's South America manufacturing centers he cannot afford to do it again for months at minimum, and more likely Vertigos are going to be flying much safer mission in South America for a fairly long while.
 
Hrm, if SADN includes SAM sites
SADN is basically:
-See that strategic site?
-Yes.
-I want it protected against any air or missile attack.
-But sir, that means we need a lot of resources for all sorts of defenses. At the minium, we need a lot of interceptor effectors and radar sensors to even attempt it. Then we have to deal with the need for multiple sites to frustrate enemy actions and hardened communications to tie everything together. And that's not going into all the other issues.
-I said what I said. Treasury is dumping resources in. You have effectively a blank check.
-Aye aye sir. On it.
*cue sufficient investment later*
*A set of strategic sites have been hardened significantly against air and/or missile attack by a wide margin*
 
Autumn Archer is going to be meaningless by the time Steel Vanguard winds down. That operational name was always code for "get ready to tank Nod's attacks during the Regency War," hence the choice of projects that would fortify Blue Zones. But Steel Vanguard is in the process of pushing the frontiers back and trashing Nod's reserve forces, so there won't be any big heavy Nod attacks.

With that said, we need to do SADN anyway, because sooner or later Nod's gonna try WMD attacks against our centers of industry and we have few other useful counters to that. We've blown up too much of their troop capacity, so they have to hit us in other ways if they don't want to just give up as we tech up.

You're not wrong. I'm not sure how much we can afford to invest in SADN before the end of the plan though, I definitely want Phase 1 to protect Chicago and Mecca, but we have a lot of military commitments. We need all the shipyards, which is 21 dice, almost half of our remaining military dice. Plasma Warheads and Firehawk Wingmen is another 10 dice. ASAT and our Consumables commitment is another 10. The Mastodon is around 4, 1 for development and 3 for deployment. and SADN phase 1 is 5. At this point we are in Free dice investment territory, and we can't commit all of our Free dice to Military as we need it for HI and, depending on how things go, Orbital and Agriculture. I haven't mentioned stuff like Zone Armor upgrades/factories, Hallucinogens Countermeasures, or other Steel Talon upgrade projects.

We have a commitment to build arcologies and are running short of turns in which to do it without being rushed. Our huge Logistics surplus is more than adequate after the intense military pressure of Steel Vanguard slows down a bit, so we need to think carefully about what we spend Infrastructure dice on. Especially since the last turns of 2061 are going to be the last chance we have for a long time to fund Suborbital Shuttles...

I am not denying the Arcology commitment, and I would also like to at least get three dice on Suborbital Shuttles and get over the initial investment hump before reallocation. For the former I'd like to start them in Q4, along with finishing up a phase of fortresses if possible. Rail maintains its usefulness until the navy can reduce the raiding malus. However, one thing to note is Phase 1 of Shuttles only gives 1 less Logistics then Rail, and both have a greater then 90% completion chance with 3 dice. If the R could be found, Shuttles could be substituted in for Rail. A possible source of the R needed to do that could be more heavily investing in the consumables.
 
Still going to push for at least one more turn before renegotiation. There's still a few Warlords that can fire off their 'Fuck GDI' specials. Wait for them to do their damage, then figure out what needs changed.
 
Has anyone kept count of Masterstrokes? I believe that Mehretu's grand plan involved his Forgotten allies, Reynaldo went to Kane...I don't know about the rest.
I believe Stahl's Masterstroke to be unleashing himself on us. I mean seriously he has been kicking us up and down the South American continent. It is like he knows our military play book better than our officers down there.😦😣
 
SADN is basically:
-See that strategic site?
-Yes.
-I want it protected against any air or missile attack.
-But sir, that means we need a lot of resources for all sorts of defenses. At the minium, we need a lot of interceptor effectors and radar sensors to even attempt it. Then we have to deal with the need for multiple sites to frustrate enemy actions and hardened communications to tie everything together. And that's not going into all the other issues.
-I said what I said. Treasury is dumping resources in. You have effectively a blank check.
-Aye aye sir. On it.
*cue sufficient investment later*
*A set of strategic sites have been hardened significantly against air and/or missile attack by a wide margin*
SADN Phase 1 is Chicago, Mecca, and Halstead Station (Groundbased site for ASAT). I forget whether North Boston is Phase 2 or 3. Also, we should really do Heavy Support Lasers before we do SADN, because Infernium lasers are just that much more capable, and turning those sites into "nothing exists within LOS without our permission" sounds like something worth a few units of STUs.
 
Has anyone kept count of Masterstrokes? I believe that Mehretu's grand plan involved his Forgotten allies, Reynaldo went to Kane...I don't know about the rest.

Krukov's was his Vargr airships. Gideon's was the tib shard missiles he tried to launch at Chicago. Stalh's was himself. The Caravanserai's was being absolute legends, if that counts. I'm not sure if we've had Bintang's yet and we've no idea about India. Majors and Mondragon might have one, or they might not since they were Gideon's subordinates. Same thing with the 10 Rings, their masterstroke might have been combined with Mehretu's. Qinglian and Al-Isafani haven't been as active in the Regency War, the former cause China is a mess and stuck in a new warring states period, and the later cause he is more defensively focused and playing the long influence game with the Caravanserai.
 
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