"Sure, these people are trying to kill us all and end the world, but killing them would be immoral. They've got children! Killing them would be wrong, so we're going to let them sit there and keep building weapons to kill us with."

That's a deeply confused sense of ethics right there. It also misses the basic human response to being under threat, which is to let ethical concerns slide in favor of survival.

Humans under serious threat to their lives will not hesitate to kill other humans. It's in our blood. I guarantee you that every one of us is alive now because some of our ancestors killed people to survive.

Under the sorts of circumstances the GDI faces, I don't believe real people would hesitate to level Nod population centers. When it's them or you, real people choose them every time. Survival instinct trumps ethics. That's just who we are. We want to go on living, and when it comes down to it we don't care how many people we need to kill to keep living, or how guilty those people are. This is what it is to be human. For good or ill, when survival is on the line we're not nice.
Most people consider war crimes to be unacceptable and try to act like decent people rather than inhuman monsters. GDI does try to live up to its ideals and principles rather than discarding them when the going gets tough.

The idea that real people are immoral monsters who throw aside all sense of right or wrong when threaten to commit war crimes and other monstrous acts is total nonsense. It is one thing to try and kill someone who is trying to kill you. It is another to target and kill his family because...well, they aren't a life or death to you so your logic is bogus.
 
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Something I have to ask; why wasn't Nod's ability to wage war destroyed from orbit long ago?
Targets are too closely embedded with civilian areas and damage there is propaganda material for NOD.
Also subterranean areas and NOD stealth makes actually identifying and killing active areas very hard. Also, there's just a lot of area and targets to deal with and a considerable amount will need at best many months to identify the location and kill.
 
Targets are too closely embedded with civilian areas and damage there is propaganda material for NOD.
Also subterranean areas and NOD stealth makes actually identifying and killing active areas very hard. Also, there's just a lot of area and targets to deal with and a considerable amount will need at best many months to identify the location and kill.

Is bad PR really more important then the fate of the world?
 
It is another to target and kill his family because...well, they aren't a life or death to you so your logic is bogus.
To be fair, the Allies did just that in WW2. And the stakes were much lower. They bombed multiple cities to rubble to destroy the industrial infrastructures in it, even knowing it would kill tens of thousands of people.

I'm not saying the GDI would nuke every single NOD city on the planet, but realistically they should have the means and the ability to level every major NOD industrial center.
 
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There are a couple of reasons Nod remains a viable threat to GDI. The biggest (and most unsatisfying) one is that the are the bad-guy faction in an RTS. Westwood and EA were very much more concerned with Rule of Cool than with plausibility. Therefore Nod survives because they have to survive to keep the story going.

More sensible, in-universe explanations also exist, though. In regards to food, they likely have some production of fungus bars and the like of their own, which is potentially quite space efficient and perfectly possible to hide underground. Additionally, civilians in Nod controlled areas are almost certainly growing food for their own consumption, some of which ends up in Nod hands either as tax or uh... "tax" depending on how cooperative said farmer is and the mood of the Noddies doing the collecting. This is of course supplemented by raids on GDI whenever possible, as well as "borrowing" liberally from YZ aid sent out by the Initiative.

In terms of production, a lot of Nod's stuff is actually fairly primitive. Up until the introduction of their new fancy lasers, most militants likely had an AK-derivative of some sort. Their Buggies are basically glorified technicals. Stuff like that can be made in a garage. More advanced stuff (like computer chips) are probably made in a relative handful of sites, possibly with heavy automation to compensate for lack of skilled workers. These sites are almost certainly underground and/or under cloak and recently probably under Ion disruptors as well. Furthermore Nod relies on some sort of nanotech for their construction (at least in some places and for some purposes) allowing them to make more stuff faster than GDI could pull of with an assembly line of the same size.

One more thing: Nod is not a nation or a group of nations. They are a cult/insurgency/criminal network. Saying that India (for example) is Nod territory is kind of generous IMO. More likely than not, Nod is the biggest player in a largely lawless land. Most of the warlords have no particular care to govern their territory. If GDI bombs a city, Nod doesn't care beyond milking it for as much propaganda as they can. If they starve? Who cares? Promise them food if they join up and you have a new batch of militants to throw at the Initiative. There are arguably no such thing as a Nod civilians, only civilians living in Nod controlled areas doing what they can to survive in a world that's literally trying to kill them.
 
If they were an amorphous insurgency ala Afghanistan I could see it being difficult to target them. But at least at the present time they're bigger than that. They have battle lines, fortresses, logistical supply lines. They have to have whole industrial and population centers that are definitively and obviously Nod. Only a fool willingly allows a demonstrated and implacable enemy to keep the resources necessary to make war. They should be finding factories and mines and roads blown up as soon as they build them.
Well, there aren't such population centres. Anything definitively Nod is hidden with stealth generators and other means of camouflage, while their normal equipment is produced on factories that are not definitively Nod - who can say whether the tanks produced are for Nod, or for a local militia? Whether the Tiberium Processing Plant is producing missiles for Nod or materials for local houses? Often enough, both are true - practically everything even a bit economically important in the Yellow Zones was associated with Nod to one degree or another. If GDI bombed it all, there wouldn't be a city in a Yellow Zone left.

Moreover, Nod was never considered to be an implacable enemy. Again, after the Second Tiberium War, they were thought of as a mostly solved problem that doesn't need any drastic measures to be contained, while after the Third, as we can see, the strategy chosen was to try and capture Yellow Zones with carrot and stick instead of obliterating them.
 
Is bad PR really more important then the fate of the world?
Think about this over time.
Initially NOD is kinda separate and doesn't quite have the same level of stealth. However, GDI didn't have the same level of fire superiority.
Then the Ion Cannon network became a thing. NOD would then use civilians as cover + improve their countermeasures against acquisition. Note that we haven't gotten to "world is fucked by tiberium very badly" levels yet. At this point, NOD is still very happy to use any failure of GDI precision targeting against GDI.
As of scenarios like now?
NOD stealth and site placement combined with OPSEC, tib storm and particulate interference, and the wide area make the entire plan of just shooting at targets not very optimal to say the least.
 
First of all, one of the things about Nod is that them being the threat they have been in this quest post-TW3? That is extremely different from how they normally have been. Pre- and Post TW1, Nod basically hid as part of the normal population, rogue countries and countries that weren't particularly co-operative towards the UN and superpowers. This might have changed, but by the time it would have human civilisation was rapidly collapsing as tiberium started spreading everywhere like crazy throwing everything into chaos. So GDI was too busy creating a global government from scratch whilst keeping as many people alive as possible to go hunting Nod. Remember, GDI only became an actual government and military rather than a Joint UN Security Council Task Force sometime in the late 2020/30s which means they absolutely couldn't just wipe out Nod and all their supporters or the governments ordering GDI to do that would have been overthrown.

As things calmed down to the point that GDI might be interested in destroying Nod if they were a danger, Nod had created a widespread global tunnel network. So yes, building a lot of underground infrastructure fast and relatively cheaply is actually more or less a 'solved problem' in the C&Cverse. Also Nod at this point looked more like a bunch of warlords using the Nod from the 1st Tiberium War as a source of legitimacy, not the persistent and widespread faction we know them as. Then along came the 2nd Tiberium War where people start realising that not only is Kane still around, but the Brotherhood of Nod may actually be more of a reality than anticipated.

However, post 2nd Tiberium War Nod again basically just collapsed into a massive number of local warlords all over the place that were controlling the territory that GDI didn't see any need to claim. GDI of course was more cautious this time because they'd seen exactly this pattern happen before, and they got stabbed in the back by Kane for ignoring the danger it could become. So they sponsored a lot of Nod warlords which were perfectly happy to take GDI's resources for crushing their local competitors that might actually bother listening to Kane whenever he popped up again instead of stabbing him, tossing the body into an unmarked grave and enjoying being the local power in the regions which had been left abandoned after the national governments collapsed.

Only along comes Kane and he spends the decade or so before the Third Tiberium War killing off the warlords which wouldn't backstab GDI when he ordered whilst stealing or developing tech and building up the more overtly Nod Loyalists in regions away from GDI's precious Blue Zones so they weren't seen as a threat worth worrying about. Sure, Nod could no longer build everything underground due to the fact that tiberium's spread meant anything underground would soon collapse or be consumed by it, but that's what the stealth fields are for. Then he decided it was time for TW3 to happen which saw all the parts of the Brotherhood of Nod come together and attack in ways GDI was completely blindsided by.

Now we come to what we see in-quest. And everything is completely different for three reasons. The first reason is that GDI's sick and tired of counting the global organisation needed for Nod to be a threat to them down and out for the count only to have it pop back up a decade or two later. So they're going to crush any organised Nod Warlords they can reach whenever they can. Secondly is that the post-Liquid Tiberium detonation mutation of tiberium and mass expansion of the Red Zones hasn't slowed down. Which means the vast swathes of land between GDI's borders and the Nod heartlands are disappearing as Nod gets pushed closer and closer to the Blue Zone borders as they were at the end of TW3. Finally? We as GDI were actively pushing out into the Yellow Zone border regions and staying there unlike any time since the post-TW1 government collapse saw GDI pulling back to the regions which would become the future Blue Zones.

So as Nod is getting pushed towards us, we're pushing towards them. And every single Nod warlord knows that individually, they can not stand up to the global juggernaut that is modern day GDI even when we were on the ropes right after the war. After all, it's not like Nod was any better back then, and GDI's got the advantage of being a global power to boost the rate at which their industry recovers. So all the Nod warlords realise that unlike before, they can't just ignore each other, try to give GDI a few targets to vent themselves on that don't hurt their forces and crush all other power blocks in the local region to rule the roost. GDI's thrown that playbook out after all. So they have to co-ordinate on a global scale like usually only happens during the Tiberium Wars in order to make up for the lacking industrial and research capabilities they individually and also collectively have compared to GDI.

It's the only way they'll survive.

As for why GDI doesn't just wipe them out now... Well, the modern GDI is actually trying to honour the Global Defence Initiative part of their name, which means they can't just kill off hostile civilians because they're near a military or joint use facility. Also, GDI would really like to keep as many of those people and even the Nod combatants alive as possible because the human population has crashed hard and is still plummeting even if it's slowed down. So every dead person that they didn't actively have to kill right then is more population to hastening the recovery of humanity's numbers once the whole 'tiberium trying to eat us all' issue is either solved or sidestepped. Also again, Nod is extremely good at the passive and active stealth measures so unless we get actual boots on the ground and eyes on target we can't be sure we're actually bombing anything more than funnily shaped painted rocks...
 
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It is another to target and kill his family because...well, they aren't a life or death to you so your logic is bogus.

And GDI is better than the Allies in WW2.
I was specifically answering to the part where you're saying that people in general wouldn't kill civilians to achieve military goals. Which is false.

And I don't call refusing to do what's necessary in the face of extinction « being better ». I call that « being dumb ».
 
I was specifically answering to the part where you're saying that people in general wouldn't kill civilians to achieve military goals. Which is false.
I disagree. It is false that people in general are willing to commit war crimes and other atrocities.

And I don't call refusing to do what's necessary in the face of extinction « being better ». I call that « being dumb ».
You have yet to prove that war crimes are necessary, which you cannot do because they are not. Targeting non-combatants isn't about winning or fighting off extinction, it is about getting vengeance and being a monster.
 
I disagree. It is false that people in general are willing to commit war crimes and other atrocities.
It literally happened irl in WW2, on all sides (even if the magnitude was obviously not the same depending on the side).

Agreed that we don't know if industrial infrastructure is spread inside population centers. But if it is, destroying them from orbit is completely justified imo. Between war crime and extinction, I'd choose war crime. Obviously, attacking cities without that kind of justification and context is unacceptable.

Edit: I'm not saying that everyone would be willing to commit war crimes, even in those circumstances. I'm saying there would still be a good number of them, potentially enough to implement such policies.
 
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I was specifically answering to the part where you're saying that people in general wouldn't kill civilians to achieve military goals. Which is false.

And I don't call refusing to do what's necessary in the face of extinction « being better ». I call that « being dumb ».

GDI isn't shy about doing what needs doing, up to and including bombing the shit out of targets.

However, at the same time GDI has to juggle the political reality of its own legitimacy, which would be damaged if it started bombing YZ areas indiscriminately, Nod's PR efforts, its vast but not unlimited resources, previous major events and the difficulty to gather information about what is actually going on in the YZs.

GDI likes to position itself as the legitimate global government fighting against tiberium and suppressing an insurrection along the way. It's very hard to justify to your own population you indiscriminately bombing areas you don't have a firm hold of when that results in major casualties, because sooner or later, somebody is going to ask 'but what if we decided we had enough of the government and start protesting?'
Nod absolutely loves to show pictures of GDI produced collateral damage. Sure, on occasion they probably manufactured some collateral damage, but indiscriminate bombardment is going to give them plenty of footage to work with anyway.
As vast and well equipped as GDI's armies are, they do have to ration their ammunition to some extent. Even if shells and railgun darts are infinite, they aren't infinite on the battlefield because of throughput problems.
Last time GDI hit a major, long term Nod infrastructure and cultural node (Temple Prime), said hit caused a continent cracking explosion that spread tiberium across the planet. GDI is not going to be very eager to hit major Nod nodes with ion strikes, which are GDI's best tool for hitting major Nod nodes, as said nodes are otherwise well protected, because another such explosion is basically 'Earth is Doomed!' territory.
Finally, GDI simply needs to find all the factories first. Nod isn't stupid, they aren't producing their actual weapons in easy to find locations, just point a satellite down at them. There would be a deliberate policy of making sure as much of Nod's manufacturing and cargo handling infrastructure is covered as is possible. Which, aside from keeping GDI from spotting what factories produce weaponry, also helps keep tiberium off the equipment and workforce.
 
"Why don't we just crack open the warcrime chest and preemptively try to destroy a peer power with weapons of mass destruction."

Hmm good question.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that going full on genocide would also make them go full on genocide, break open their warcrime chest and try to destroy us with their weapons of mass destruction, leading to a war to the knife.

And we all know what they say about knife fights. The loser dies in the street, the winner dies on the way to the hospital.
 
A bit late for that. Nod already took out their knifes and are trying to stab us with them.
They're really not. I mean, Gideon did that a little with his Tib Bombs, and they're engaging in conventional warfare, but I'll remind you that Nod is a nuclear power. If they really wanted to make this a war to the knife, they'd start using Shadow Teams to backpack nukes into population centers, and mass launch ICBMs. GDI population centers would start going up in blazes of atomic fire.

And that's not even counting what Dark said about them potentially really going "fuck it" and busting out LT Bombs.
 
"Why don't we just crack open the warcrime chest and preemptively try to destroy a peer power with weapons of mass destruction."

Hmm good question.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that going full on genocide would also make them go full on genocide, break open their warcrime chest and try to destroy us with their weapons of mass destruction, leading to a war to the knife.

And we all know what they say about knife fights. The loser dies in the street, the winner dies on the way to the hospital.
I'm not saying genocide is the solution. It is not. I'm saying that being unwilling to target industrial infrastructures situated in population centers is stupid when the survival of mankind is at stakes. If those industries aren't in populated areas, there's indeed no reasons to target cities.

Also, people are perfectly able to do such things, it happened irl. That was my original point.
 
Most people consider war crimes to be unacceptable and try to act like decent people rather than inhuman monsters. GDI does try to live up to its ideals and principles rather than discarding them when the going gets tough.
Whether or not it's war crimes is one of the points in dispute. NOD is legitimate targets, and Taliesin has a good case that NOD putting civilians in war factories and putting war factories in civilian areas does not make GDI guilty of a war crime for bombing those war factories from orbit, it makes NOD the one who's guilty of the war crime of using human shields.
'Civilians' building weapons or otherwise contributing to an enemy's war effort are legitimate military targets
Targeting non-combatants isn't about winning or fighting off extinction, it is about getting vengeance and being a monster.
Whether or not they're non-combatants is, again, one of the points in dispute here.
 
I'm not saying genocide is the solution. It is not. I'm saying that being unwilling to target industrial infrastructures situated in population centers is stupid when the survival of mankind is at stakes. If those industries aren't in populated areas, there's indeed no reasons to target cities.

Also, people are perfectly able to do such things, it happened irl. That was my original point.
The survival of mankind absolutely necessitates attacks on major population centers being a last resort for both sides.

The population of the planet is on a downward trend. At this point there's probably only about 1.4 billion left. A full on, attack the population centers, war would likely result in a human population being reduced to tens of millions, scraping out a living in the bombed out ruins of whatever's left, waiting for Tiberium to finish the job.
 
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Giddyboy bullshit. Result of a masterstroke rather than a standard armament. Terror weapon - unlikely to see rapid proliferation other than among the warlords already predisposed to such tactics, if at all.
Still, it's a good argument for us deploying SADN. Our existing defenses against air/artillery attack on our territory aren't really suited to engaging a massed barrage because they're primarily air defenses repurposed, as far as I can tell. Massed laser point defense would at least give us a chance of thinning out a tiberium shard terror attack into something that only damaged our buildings over a wide area, without turning the entire area into a giant tib field almost immediately.

Can we get the last phase of Chicago built while still throwing up fortress towns and rail lines? And still compete Karachi on time? That'd be a good fuck you to Gideon, and for even trying that stunt with the shard launchers I want him hung from a fucking post.
Well, we could in principle do a Chicago Sprint on much the same terms as the Karachi Sprint- 1800 Progress from 6d100 + 7d100 + 477 Progress from the bonuses is something that, statistically speaking, we can slam out in two turns if we really want to.

So in theory we could build fortifications and railroads with Infrastructure in 2060Q2, do a Chicago Sprint in 2060Q3-Q4, do the Karachi Sprint in 2061Q1-Q2, and finish the (Plan-mandated) fourth phase of Blue Zone Arcologies in 2061Q3-Q4.

The big problems there are twofold. One is the Tiberium dice, because we've got significant extra +RpT income requirements we need to fulfill (about +145, and only some of that's gonna come from moon mining). Realistically we need to do some serious vein mining in the next couple of years, and we're not going to have a lot of wiggle room for it if we sprint on both major planned cities.

The other is Housing. We're going to have a lot of refugees pouring in from all over the world, and even counting shitty Housing in Yellow Zones, we 'only' have +34 Housing right now. The total of +19 Housing from the planned cities, plus that, with +8 from the arcologies, is enough that it might handle the war refugees... or it might not. I'd feel more comfortable if we had our hands free to build a few more phases of Blue Zone Apartments.
 
The survival of mankind absolutely necessitates attacks on major population centers being a last resort for both sides.

The population of the planet is on a downward trend. At this point there's probably only about 1.4 billion left. A full on, attack the population centers, war would likely result in a human population being reduced to tens of millions, scraping out a living in the bombed out ruins of whatever's left, waiting for Tiberium to finish the job.
That... basically sounds like a win condition for Nod.
 
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