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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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willian2801 said:
i know but as far as i know yuri is a product of genetic engineering i think psionic is something that some humans already have but very weak and yuri came up in an experiment to try to artificially increase these genetic traits, tiberium can serve as some kind of catalyst or amplifier of certain traits, but maybe we can understand better by analyzing these traits with some forgotten volunteers or simply finding something strange in the human gene but as you say the red alert came about because of an experiment in time, but that hasn't changed in nothing human genes and if yuri is possible in red alert it must be possible in tiberium wars, since what has changed is time and the introduction of tiberium the humans are the same in both universes
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Red Alert is literally an existing fictional property in the quests version of the Tiberiumverse via the Direct and Destroy Franchise, we cannot infer things from Red Alert.
 
Phrux said:
Wait, given that he's a technopath... Would the high-tech steel battalion have been literally counterproductive?
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Not necessarily. There were four Zone Armor troopers dropped on top of them courtesy of Space Force and no one got a technopath-assisted suicide.

Now, that doesn't mean they don't have the ability to control vehicles, particularly fly-by-wire vehicles, but they have yet to demonstrate that ability.
 
On the plus side it doesn't look like they have actual mind control.

Looks like we see technopathy and some kind of precog based on how the fights were described. Or bizarre Uber combat instincts or something.
 
Chronic said:
Atreides could restore a waterlogged harddrive that a current was run through. That's alright, but i suspect he would have had more difficulty with a drive that was physically shattered, via handguns or a sledge hammer, which should have been available.
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A) These guys are demonstrably stronger than Atreides in this regard
B) Guns and/or sledgehammers may have been present but I somehow doubt their were within easy access of the server racks, and physically smashing each one to a degree that they were unrecoverable - by what let's not forget is basically fucking magic that we don't know the actual bounds of - would have been a slow, intensive process. I sincerely doubt she would have gotten through more than a fraction of the storage media in the time given.
 
Before people get too panicked about this, remember these technopaths are unique and literally irreplaceable. They can only be in one place at a time, and there only needs to be one mistake or stroke of bad luck for them to be killed, so they shouldn't be used aggressively.
While they are dangerous, we don't need to worry about widespread proliferation of NOD psychics yet.
 
Re: Tsui's Gamble. It's stupid in that she's gambling but success washes sins. I couldn't really fit it in due to flow reasons but the rationale for Tsui's action stemmed from trying to figure out 'Nod Weird Shit' with the fact that the drives got stolen as they are, despite data destroying protocols. As Head Scientist, the Inhibitor techs falling to Brotherhood hands were her concerns... but against 'Nod Weird Shit', there are far too many missing contexts and variables. It's likelier that the data would be lost and everyone would end up dead anyway. So with nothing to lose, she decided that at worst, what she'd get is a bullet to the head. Instead, she got elaboration on goals and one power set of the Delta Forgotten – afterwards corroborated by Atreides as being high-level – and managing to survive through the attack anyway.

The inhibitors being lost is a black mark, of course. That's why she gets basically permanent medical leave – aside from the fact that the gas mucked with her nervous systems. But as far as the Spooks™️ like Hackett are concerned, it could have been a lot worse and it'd take another repeat of the incident to form a pattern on the Order's behavior. Another incident that could have netted the Brotherhood even more tech loots.
 
So it was the inhibitor tech after all. For eco unlike turning our inhibitor's into bomb like i was guessing though.

Which is,,fine. It's bad that NOD is getting more efficent eco from this, but if the side result is increased abatement, then it really could have bee a lot worse.

Hopefully that is all they are gonna use it for
 
KleverKil'Vanya said:
Greeeeat yet more magic NOD bullshit, hur dur iz can just waltz in any ware i wuntz.
Can we just turn everything outside our walls into a red zone and let NOD just fucking burn?
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This operation was stated to have relied upon years of infiltrator legwork, and the technopaths described as being functionally irreplaceable to the point that the Russian Warlord was convinced to deploy his military in order to save them.

This is very much not something they can do "any ware i wuntz". This was a Warlord's Masterstroke which required a significant amount resources to pull off and relied entirely upon us being unprepared for technopaths that can circumvent our conventional security measures. Now that we know that they exist, we can prepare appropriately.

Furthermore, the history book excerpt explicitly mentions how the Forgotten hate the Brotherhood, and that Granger's generosity is about to pay off. This very much confirms that these technopaths are irreplaceable because Nod will not be able to get new recruits from the Forgotten, while we might have laid the foundation for our own pipeline of psychic Forgotten recruits.
 
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Ithillid said:
Some, like the Order of the Remembrancer.
– Drafts from The Unclassified, "On The Order"​
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I'll be real, this would be infinitely more meaningful if we were hearing about the resentment some Forgotten have... from the major Forgotten figures GDI has worked with over the years and should be out there.

Psychic Forgotten Commandoes who have been nursing a grudge over the years? That's whatever, NOD's going to be coming up with new tricks... but why haven't we even heard a peep about the old relationship we had with the Forgotten.... y'know, when the Forgotten had people so trusted by GDI that we were issuing them custom weaponry that we literally could not wield ourselves. Its frustrating that NOD gets to plumb the record for all the cool tricks they used to get up to... and use some of ours... when our old tricks are always left by the wayside. Was there a glaring giant button we could press for 'Some of the more capable Forgotten mutants are being enrolled and outfitted with cutting edge equipment like the good ole' days?'- it's frustrating when one of the developments we've pursued as ardently as we were seemingly capable of isn't even a footnote in comparison to 'Oh no, they've done even more horrific experiments to unlock new powers on the Forgotten... but these ones really hate GDI so it's not particularly relevant.'

I mean, I was under the impression CABAL went even more genocidal on the various neutral people he came across than NOD or GDI up to and including killing the closest figure the Forgotten had to a ruler. Does the pathological hatred of cyborgs a lot of people have just not matter here? Does the fact that by the vast majority of Forgotten standards the Remembrancers are siding with the guys who killed Tratos and tortured Umagon not matter to all the Forgotten we've extensively reached out to? It would be nice if GDI's history mattered more than being blamed for the collapse and extinction of most of humanity.

Things being grey only matter when both sides are called out for that, when the consequences of such murkiness are explored. They aren't here. I literally don't think we could have pushed to work closer with the Forgotten if we tried... and we don't have the option to even consider Forgotten commandoes... despite GDI previously having done the exact same thing? At best, it's handing us an idiot ball, at worst it makes all of our outreach feel totally meaningless.
Simon_Jester said:
What I am saying is that if we are forcibly, against our will, required to go "cold turkey" off of tiberium with little or no notice...

...That is to say, if hypothetically the TCN causes all tiberium to suddenly disappear...

Then we want to make sure we are prepared with at least some kind of viable non-tiberium option for keeping the lights on and the citizenry from starving to death while we figure out what the hell to do next.

Okay?

It's a Plan B, or maybe a Plan C. Plan A is to either stay on a tiberium economy indefinitely (using controlled tiberium that doesn't eat or blow up whole planets), or to make a smooth, graceful transition to a non-tiberium economy in a gradual, planned process spread out over decades.

Plan C is by nature not something we actually want to experience.
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The problem is, we have no reason to assume C is even a possibility, if we fuck up and all Tib on Earth just goes poof by way of the TCN... that's awful. If we take literally no precautions to prevent the total loss of Tib on Venus by doing the exact same thing when we have reason to assume the tib on Venus is spreading significantly slower, we are actively making ourselves colossal problems because we have pattern recognition worse than a literal child.
 
Karugus said:
I'll be real, this would be infinitely more meaningful if we were hearing about the resentment some Forgotten have... from the major Forgotten figures GDI has worked with over the years and should be out there.
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To be fair, this could be describing events before the Second Tiberium War, which is a period of about 20-40 years, depending on when you think Renegade takes place, that is completely glanced over in canon. But that may not make sense if the Order's founding is recent.
 
Lightwhispers said:
Frankly, the idea that portals using Space Magic Materials to break physics as we know it, cannot break this one specific aspect of physics, seems pretty silly to me.

In short, don't get hung up on a specific element of things, it works.
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What it comes down to is that conservation laws aren't just physics, they're metaphysics. They're underlying mathematical assumptions that go into the idea that we can even have physical laws.

A lot of science fictional stuff just violates the laws of physics as we know them, which is fine. So did radium, once upon a time. So did the precession of the apside of Mercury, once upon a time.

Once upon a time, it was a "violation of the known laws of physics" that every time you open an oven door you don't get zorched by a blast of gamma radiation; this was generally interpreted as evidence that we needed better laws of physics. Better laws of physics were duly devised, and that's part of the story of how you are reading this on a computer, because we wouldn't have computer chips if Max Planck hadn't felt compelled to "git gud" due to the problem I just described.

There is ample precedent for new scientific phenomena to defy our understanding of scientific laws.

But the conservation laws are so fundamental, they're right up there with "cause and effect" itself in terms of our understanding of how reality works, and importantly, doesn't work. Once they go out the window it causes a lot of upheaval, both in practical terms and in conceptual terms like "so what can we confidently say an unknown phenomenon is and is not capable of?"

...

For instance, tiberium grows by converting existing mass at the atomic/subatomic level. This is generally understood to be impossible by today's science. But even if it is possible, we can still have coherent mathematical laws describing it, in principle.

Without conservation laws, preserving that kind of coherence becomes much harder.

Woltaire said:
uh oh
think of the truce and all the diplomatic efforts we have made there
that not good
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Given the context ("and then Director Granger's generosity bore fruit,") it might actually be foreshadowing something good, not something bad.
 
AntiSanity said:
I'm not sure the Gana got smarter. In the same snippet of coordinated Gana, they also failed to get through a simple set of doors without Order help. I think Gana have cybernetics within them that allow the Order technomancy to control them remotely, but their base intelligence is still low.
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True, I even noted that possibility, but that wasn't my question. If the Gana do get smart enough to do more then fight tactically, say plan their own attacks or even surrender, what is the response? Do GDI troops have the legal authority to take a surrendering Gana prisoner? Are they entitled to humane treatment? What other rights would they have?

Given how invested GDI is in AI technology, looking at the potential rights of other non-human sapients is very much worth asking.
 
willian2801 said:
so one thing i wanted to ask is if you guys want to continue using tiberium as the basis of our economy in the future or switch to normal economy back?

I prefer to continue using tiberium, until releasing it in some unimportant worlds in the future to mine, of course I know that the public opinion in general will not like it at all, but at this point we will already have some colonized planets and also a better understanding of tiberium, it will be much easier to convince people to spread tiberium at that time since a long time will have passed and even though it will still be very difficult to do it will not be impossible anymore, even though the population still there was a great fear of tiberium in general with much better technology at that time and the possible benefits we can convince them to spread tiberium on mining planets, of course a lot of people will still be against this action, more like there are always people who wants to continue following the "tradition" that tiberium should never be spread and that kind of thing, in human history there has never been a lack of people going against these "traditions" and trying to change the way society works and as it sees certain things with so many benefits to do this the number will not be small wanting this option

So what is your opinion for the future of GDI in general on the tiberium issue?
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I rather keep using the wonder rock indefinitely until such time as we figure out a more efficient/better method.
 
Calvin said:
To be fair, this could be describing events before the Second Tiberium War, which is a period of about 20-40 years, depending on when you think Renegade takes place, that is completely glanced over in canon. But that may not make sense if the Order's founding is recent.
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I mean, even then this sort of ignores why we haven't had options to develop our own Forgotten Commando project. Even if we assume we categorically don't have any of the super new DEWs even in the hollywood prototype stage... we still have stuff like portable ion cannons lying around.

'Something something we gave Gamma mutants Zone Armor and stripped a portable ion cannon of some of it's super expensive radiation shielding because Forgotten often just ignore ionizing radiation ala Ghost Stalker'. Instead we get NOD Forgotten Commandoes... using our own Zone Armor. This was so low effort NOD could make GDI Forgotten Commandoes... and just did. I trust Ithilid to explore everything we could potentially do, present us with options, and leverage our various choices to be something more than the sum of their parts... but this feels like a slap in the face. There was not a single reason we couldn't have done this, we have done this in the past, and we seemingly were unable to do it now while NOD could. And even if its somehow gated behind one of the energy weapon developments, IC and OOC this never came up? Not, 'hey- we've got some Gammas who may be willing to work with us, let's whip them up some gadgets as proof of concepts for all the energy weapons we want to roll out relatively soon?'.

Its just dissatisfying. We should never have to ask Ithilid why we can't do something while NOD can. It should be relatively evident- that just helps reinforce the distinct flavor of both sides and keeps some resentful quester from raving and ranting without stop :V
 
Algalon said:
Furthermore, the history book excerpt explicitly mentions how the Forgotten hate the Brotherhood [...]
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Point of order, the truism is that the Forgotten hate the Brotherhood on account of "Let's kidnap them and make them husks for cyborg elites" and general Brotherhood shenanigans. But the truth was that this isn't entirely applicable and until about a decade and one Extinction War ago, the GDI were mum about giving any major aid for the Forgotten. And before that, the GDI were also being dickbags towards them for... roughly two generations worth of lifetime. The animosity and distrust runs deeper than anything than what Granger and Seo could try to patch up. What GDI could do – or rather, Bennett as the pointman here – instead is to just... give the Forgotten some space and mend relations that way. The problem is that a portion of the (decentralized) Forgotten don't want that. For some, the hatchet isn't meant to be buried under ground but on GDI's proverbial necks instead. Ergo, the Order.

As an aside: This is part of the reason why Atreides didn't divulge the technopathy to the GDI, or why the GDI never prodded him. Atreides volunteered to be tested but at the same time, consent on what could be tested is on him. Think the Erehwon situation in large– Diplomacy Corps is walking on eggshells. They are all too aware that any soured relations with Atreides' handling would likely cause the GDI to lose the Forgotten for the second time after Umagon, and probably an unsalvageable one at that. Which, after the reveal of the Order, could lead to even more psychic commandos on Brotherhood's side. And on the Forgotten's part? Well, most don't want to be part of the greater conflict, not when they finally have time to take a breather and rebuild. That, and they know far too well that whatever else the Delta has on their skillset could make a repeat of the Marked kidnappings. This time on both sides.
 
TripleTango said:
Hewlett-Gardner is, by word of GM, less productive than what Nod has.

Most generous explanation is they knew something was there but not what, second most generous is they knew and they're trying to gauge our progress. Less generously, I'd worry about Tiberium accelerators.
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Given that Nod's base facilities tend to be closer to big tiberium masses than ours, I doubt Nod will build tiberium accelerators.

Crazycryodude said:
Technology for questions. Doctor Tsui let the commandos take the servers containing the information intact. She had the opportunity to try and destroy the data before they got to her but intentionally didn't, letting them have the tech in exchange for answering her questions. Kemal played along.
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As an addendum to this, I'm pretty sure that whatever means Tsui had for destroying the servers would have failed, given Atreides' little demonstration.
 
One thing I've consistently enjoyed about the this thread is Nod forces. The Psi commandos are the latest example of just an interesting enemy. On top of the new Gana. I'm curious to see what else's they deploy.

Also the drop units are paying dividends. I expect when they're a mature unit they will make these little raids a pain for Nod.
 
Ithillid said:
And through his own eyes before a tiger lunged at his throat, he saw something. Something that when reviewed after the fact, would reveal something only he noticed amidst the battle.

A dwarf-like figure, cowled beyond obscurity as it rushed out of cover into the borehole alongside the rest of the enemies.
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There is also this. No idea what it is or what it means.

Edit: Could be a psion, considering the first ones wore hoods.

Second Edit: It's probably the Order sniper escaping.
 
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