Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Oleg-14191 · Sep 30, 2022

We have the opportunity:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Focus Reallocation (New)
While the existing focuses have served GDI well in the last plan, it is a new plan, with new goals. Pick three of the below sectors to add one die per sector to. (-1 die to Tiberium, -1 die to Orbital, and -1 die to Services)

[ ] Infrastructure

[ ] Heavy Industry

[ ] Light and Chemical Industry

[ ] Agriculture

[ ] Tiberium

[ ] Orbital

[ ] Services

[ ] Military

[ ] Bureaucracy

And thread was in favor of it.

Prime 2.0 · Sep 30, 2022

tenchifew said:
This is wrong.
Since we already can activate all the dice we have the coming turn we are not resource limited anymore.
And since DAE is currently exactly as dice efficient as none improved fusion, improved fusion should be more efficient, even if we do not know by how much yet.
Thus taking DAE now would cost us dice over the coming 3+ years in comparison to using the HI die.

Lightwhispers said:
We're currently in the area where we have the resources to activate all our dice, but don't necessarily have the resources to activate them on the projects we really want to work in. So, partially resource-limited, I would say.

As for DAE, I am hoping to hire Bernard, get 2-3 years of use out of his die, then start up DAE to get a constant inflow of Energy that doesn't cost Labor/other indicators.

I've already discussed this with Lightwhispers, but I feel the situation is even worse than he describes: Our most expensive projects are still coming. Ithillid spitballed about a year from the completion of the initial experimental portals project before we saw a followup, which would tentatively set its next appearance at Q3. But not just that, the next AI project is coming. The next Isolinear project is coming. Structural Alloys are coming. And ignorant of the minutae of all of that, other government agencies are looking at our windfall with envy and may also be coming with requests that we share.

Our income number may have recovered from the start of plan in record time, sure, but our balance sheet is approaching a much more precarious situation than this good start would imply.

MightbeaMimic · Sep 30, 2022

Prime 2.0 said:
I've already discussed this with Lightwhispers, but I feel the situation is even worse than he describes: Our most expensive projects are still coming. Ithillid spitballed about a year from the completion of the initial experimental portals project before we saw a followup, which would tentatively set its next appearance at Q3. But not just that, the next AI project is coming. The next Isolinear project is coming. Structural Alloys are coming. And ignorant of the minutae of all of that, other government agencies are looking at our windfall with envy and may also be coming with requests that we share.

Our income number may have recovered from the start of plan in record time, sure, but our balance sheet is approaching a much more precarious situation than this good start would imply.

I agree. Now is not the time to touch the brakes with regards to funding. I figure 14 dice in Tib for one more turn would give us a far healthier budget

Void Stalker · Sep 30, 2022

Prime 2.0 said:
I've already discussed this with Lightwhispers, but I feel the situation is even worse than he describes: Our most expensive projects are still coming. Ithillid spitballed about a year from the completion of the initial experimental portals project before we saw a followup, which would tentatively set its next appearance at Q3. But not just that, the next AI project is coming. The next Isolinear project is coming. Structural Alloys are coming. And ignorant of the minutae of all of that, other government agencies are looking at our windfall with envy and may also be coming with requests that we share.

Our income number may have recovered from the start of plan in record time, sure, but our balance sheet is approaching a much more precarious situation than this good start would imply.

Income recovery has been nice but even swapping over to vein mines for the coming quarter is still going to see that number go up- and mainly for the near future my thoughts in tib are 2 dice Q3 on improved process, 5 dice on Vein mines then Q4 to maybe Q4 of next year is 1 die on refits and 6 dice on vein mines/border offensives, throw in some free dice on BZ inhibitors. That will see a steady tick up each turn on income and allow more expensive projects over time

Lightwhispers · Sep 30, 2022

MightbeaMimic said:
I agree. Now is not the time to touch the brakes with regards to funding. I figure 14 dice in Tib for one more turn would give us a far healthier budget

I'm not sure we want to do 14 dice on Tib, but even 11 would give us a better-than-even chance of 5 phases of Vein Mines, which would average out to ~160Rpt increase. That would bring us up to an income of over 1200 Rpt, which is definitely workable to take the focus off of income - although with the promises to give income to InOps, we'll need to keep going somewhat.
Even just 7 dice on Vein Mines Q2 would make 3 phases quite likely, which would average around 100Rpt increase.

Oleg-14191 · Sep 30, 2022

Out of curiosity, if we exhaust Deep Red income options and Vein mines, then what's our next best income options?

bigking321 · Sep 30, 2022

Can we exhaust the mines?

Oleg-14191 · Sep 30, 2022

Exhaust as in "can't build more of them for whatever reason".

RCNAnon · Sep 30, 2022

The only reason we can't build more mines is if we're out of cap goods. So if that's the issue then we've other problems.

Supposedly after 5-10 of them we also unlock tib boreholes, so probably that.

Devilblackbook · Sep 30, 2022

[X] Plan A Decent Spread/Mad Science Squad

Dmol8 · Sep 30, 2022

Lightwhispers said:
You're comparing projects using multiple different technologies, and acting as if they are based on the same thing.
They aren't. It's like taking apples, oranges, and pomegranates, and saying they're all apples for purposes of comparison.
You have no way of knowing what the improved fusion plants projects will look like, and yet you make declarative "this will be the case" statements, which may not be your intent, but it comes across as saying you know how Ithillid will do things, when you really don't.

Edit, to clarify: We might get a progress reduction, or an increase on Energy production. Or both. We are *highly* unlikely to get a decrease in Resources per Die, for a long time. (Until Fusion is as mature a technology as fission, at the least.)

...OK then. My argument is that we have never in the length of this quest had a Phase of a main Energy Action in Heavy Industry that gave us more than +16 Energy. This is because at the start of the quest the formula for gains/losses was:

Ithillid said:
Your numbers are slightly wrong. It is 2^(x-1) for the +s and -s
So 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.

We have broken away from that formula in the meantime, but at this point the next generation of Fusion Power Plants was noted to be:

Ithillid said:
[ ] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development (Tech)
While the existing CCF plants are certainly functional, there are a number of upgrades that may well lead to improved efficiency over simple water boilers. While this project will be more of an iterative improvement, trying to get a few percent more megawatt hours per plant out of a relatively similar design to current systems, it is likely to see significant further revisions as other fields improve.
(Progress 0/120: 20 resources per die)

more efficient in Energy production, and also more stable when it comes to certain improvements we did in the meantime. Few percent doesn't read like getting +20 Energy to me, it reads like getting +17/+18.

Also:

tenchifew said:
This is wrong.
Since we already can activate all the dice we have the coming turn we are not resource limited anymore.
And since DAE is currently exactly as dice efficient as none improved fusion, improved fusion should be more efficient, even if we do not know by how much yet.
Thus taking DAE now would cost us dice over the coming 3+ years.

Ithillid said:
-[] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 10) 0/300 3 dice 60R 26%, 4 dice 80R 80%, 5 dice 100R 98%

We get a Phase of Fusion Plants done in 3-5 Dice. If we are lucky that Phase is more Dice efficient than DAE if we get unlucky it is less Dice efficient than DAE. We have had:

Ithillid said:
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 1) 333/350 1 die 20R 100%

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 1)
First wave continuous cycle fusion plants are still somewhat under development. However, they are ready enough for mass roll out, with only a few kinks in the connection systems remaining before they can be linked to the grid as a whole.
(Progress 372/350: 20 Resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (High Priority)

Q2 and Q3 2058 No Dice on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants.

Ithillid said:
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2), 6 dice (120 Resources)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 2)
With the plant design standardized and more fully tested, it is time to begin rolling out the designs enmasse. While still somewhat more resource intensive than traditional fission plants, they are much faster to build. Furthermore, the completion of this phase would signal the maturing of the cycle plants and mark a milestone in furthering energy security for the GDI.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (+5 Political Support)
(Progress 125/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3)
Mass production of modern fusion systems has substantially replaced the older nuclear systems. While not an immediate need, it is likely to be critically needed as GDI's power needs scale up. Additionally, establishing a reserve of generation capacity will help ensure that damage to the system would not impact greater performances.
(Progress 199/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy)
[14, 18]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3)
Mass production of modern fusion systems has substantially replaced the older nuclear systems. While not an immediate need, it is likely to be critically needed as GDI's power needs scale up. Additionally, establishing a reserve of generation capacity will help ensure that damage to the system can be made good more easily.
(Progress 258/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy)
[37]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3)
Mass production of modern fusion systems has substantially replaced the older nuclear systems. While not an immediate need, it is likely to be critically needed as GDI's power needs scale up. Additionally, establishing a reserve of generation capacity will help ensure that damage to the system can be made good on more easily.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy)
(Progress 76/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) [95]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 4) (Updated)
A fourth major wave of fusion plants will begin to wrap up this generation, as GDI looks to move to marginally more efficient second generation continuous fusion plants. While they are not yet ready, they will be in one to two years, as final testing continues.
(Progress 301/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) [71, 42, 13]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 5)
With the Initiative's energy needs still substantial, new pods of fusion plants, and expansions to existing ones will be needed to continue pouring resources into the military industrial complex, and provide new weapons in the fight against the Brotherhood of Nod.
(Progress 232/300: 20 resources per die)(+16 Energy) [98, 75]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 5) (Updated)
With the Initiative's energy needs still substantial, new pods of fusion plants, and expansions to existing ones will be needed to continue pouring resources into the military industrial complex, and provide new weapons in the fight against the Brotherhood of Nod.
(Progress 330/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) [2, 38]

Ithillid said:
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plant (Phase 6) 30/300 (5 Dice, 100 R) (98.8% chance)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 6) (Updated)
With the Initiative's energy needs still substantial, new pods of fusion plants, and expansions to existing ones will be needed to continue pouring resources into the military industrial complex, and provide new weapons in the fight against the Brotherhood of Nod.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor)
(Progress 153/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 7) (Updated)
The systematic and continuing construction of additional fusion plants is still ongoing, with GDI expecting to require much more construction, even with improved CCF plants on the horizon.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor)
(Progress 67/310: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor) [40, 39, 48]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8) (Updated)
While the pace of factory construction is likely to decline as GDI stands down from ongoing offensives, more immediate fusion generation is likely to continue to be a high priority. At the same time, there are concerns about the longevity of the class, even with limited evidence for it.
(Progress 243/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor) [25, 93]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 8)
While the pace of factory construction is likely to decline as GDI stands down from ongoing offensives, more immediate fusion generation is likely to continue to be a high priority. At the same time, there are concerns about the longevity of the class, even with limited evidence for it.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor)
(Progress 137/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-2 Labor) [71, 65]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 9) (Updated)
While the pace of factory construction is likely to decline as GDI stands down from ongoing offensives, more immediate fusion generation is likely to continue to be a high priority. At the same time, there are significant concerns about the longevity of the class.
(Progress 236/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-2 Labor) [79]

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 9)
While the pace of factory construction is likely to decline as GDI stands down from ongoing offensives, more immediate fusion generation is likely to continue to be a high priority. At the same time, there are significant concerns about the longevity of the class.
(Progress 300/300: 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-2 Labor) [35]

1+6+2+1+1+3+2+2+5+3+2+2+1+1 = 32 Dice for 9 Phases of Continuous Fusion Power Plants. So (16X9)/32 = 4.5 Energy per Die. That is without counting the Dice we used in the last quarter of the previous plan to get Phase 1 of Continuous Fusion Power Plants built:

Ithillid said:
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants 0/350 (5 Dice, 100 R) (61% chance to finish)

Ithillid said:
[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants
First wave continuous cycle fusion plants are still somewhat under development. However, they are ready enough for mass roll out, with only a few kinks in the connection systems remaining before they can be linked to the grid as a whole.
(Progress 333/350: 20 Resources per Die) (+++++ Energy) (High Priority)

So once again: (16X9)/37 = 3.08 Energy per Die.

If we say that Phase One was different and more expensive and remove it from the calculation then: (16X8)/31 = 4.12 Energy per Die.

Also lets take the average of rolls we have had in Heavy Industry the entire last plan starting with the winning vote of Q1 2058:

Q1 2058: 25 1
Q2 2058: 34+36+24 = 94 3
Q3 2058: 42+38+86 = 166 3
Q4 2058: 90+19+54+64+5+69 = 301 6
Q1 2059: 14+18+19+85 = 136 4
Q2 2059: 37+72+7+45 = 161 4
Q3 2059: 95+41+81+5 = 122 4
Q4 2059: 71+42+13+18 = 144 4
Q1 2060: 98+75+9+81+99+31+100+71+4 = 568 9
Q2 2060: 2+38+87+89+89 = 305 5
Q3 2060: 95+44+30+17+92+45+73+94+92 = 582 9
Q4 2060: 40+39+48+74+56+76 = 333 6
Q1 2061: 25+93+16+99+22+12 = 267 6
Q2 2061: 71+65+87+23+63+93+83 = 485 7
Q3 2061: 79+29+40+85 = 233 4
Q4 2061: 90+35+22+79+33 = 259 5

25+94+166+301+136+161+122+144+568+305+582+333+267+485+233+259 = 4181
1+3+3+6+4+4+4+4+9+5+9+6+6+7+4+5 = 80
4181/80 = 52.26

So our Heavy Industry Dice were usually rolling a bit above average while our Continuous Cycle Plants Dice were rolling a bit above the DAE Die value if it is +4 E per Die. You know what?

Let's research the Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion:

Ithillid said:
-[] Improved Continuous Cycle Fusion Development 0/120 1 die 20R 34%, 2 dice 40R 96%

It's only two Die tops. Then we'll see what the new power plants bring. Should put this argument to rest.

tenchifew · Sep 30, 2022

Prime 2.0 said:
I've already discussed this with Lightwhispers, but I feel the situation is even worse than he describes: Our most expensive projects are still coming. Ithillid spitballed about a year from the completion of the initial experimental portals project before we saw a followup, which would tentatively set its next appearance at Q3. But not just that, the next AI project is coming. The next Isolinear project is coming. Structural Alloys are coming. And ignorant of the minutae of all of that, other government agencies are looking at our windfall with envy and may also be coming with requests that we share.

Our income number may have recovered from the start of plan in record time, sure, but our balance sheet is approaching a much more precarious situation than this good start would imply.

Lightwhispers said:
I'm not sure we want to do 14 dice on Tib, but even 11 would give us a better-than-even chance of 5 phases of Vein Mines, which would average out to ~160Rpt increase. That would bring us up to an income of over 1200 Rpt, which is definitely workable to take the focus off of income - although with the promises to give income to InOps, we'll need to keep going somewhat.
Even just 7 dice on Vein Mines Q2 would make 3 phases quite likely, which would average around 100Rpt increase.

I actually assumed that we still would have a full turn of vein mines ahead of us this turn, since I agree that we are not comfortable regarding available resources yet and referred to it in one of my earlier posts. I would prefer us to do a 10+ or even full 14 dice tiberium phase.
This said, we still can activate all the dice, even if not in all projects we wish, and should be able to do even this in one to two turns, thus I still feel that calling our situation already dice limited instead of resource limited is justified.

Derpmind · Sep 30, 2022

I want tons of Vein Mines because just this update, Chicago is constantly having underground Tiberium spiking up and demolishing buildings. If we don't start abating underground Tiberium, that'll start happening in the middle of our solidly BZ cities.

Crazycryodude · Sep 30, 2022

Vein mines should be repeatable functionally infinitely. Maybe they'll eventually start costing logistics or something as we have to ship more and more Tiberium from previously empty Blue Zone to processing plants, but we have basically infinite amounts of empty land with Tiberium under it.

Shadows · Sep 30, 2022

Derpmind said:
I want tons of Vein Mines because just this update, Chicago is constantly having underground Tiberium spiking up and demolishing buildings. If we don't start abating underground Tiberium, that'll start happening in the middle of our solidly BZ cities.

I think we should probably crush all the BZ inhibitors this year, too.

Crafter of War · Sep 30, 2022

Shadows said:
I think we should probably crush all the BZ inhibitors this year, too.

Aren't we struggling with Energy at the moment though? Especially when our power plants are going to start failing soon?

Shadows · Sep 30, 2022

Crafter of War said:
Aren't we struggling with Energy at the moment though? Especially when our power plants are going to start failing soon?

We've got a great big bonus, actually.

We've also got the ability to roll out the RZ energy refits for +10 energy x 3 basically any time we want them.

KnightDisciple · Sep 30, 2022

We literally got told by ZOCOM to not do any more Red Zone expansions for a bit, so if people want money money money, it's gonna have to be Green Zone ops and Vein Mines.

Also, re: "it'll cost energy", it's a nice thing there's an option for someone who's a big advocate for a Department that provides a steady flow of Energy, isn't it?

Lightwhispers · Sep 30, 2022

Dmol8 said:
...OK then. My argument is that we have never in the length of this quest had a Phase of a main Energy Action in Heavy Industry that gave us more than +16 Energy. This is because at the start of the quest the formula for gains/losses was:

We have broken away from that formula in the meantime, but at this point the next generation of Fusion Power Plants was noted to be:

more efficient in Energy production, and also more stable when it comes to certain improvements we did in the meantime. Few percent doesn't read like getting +20 Energy to me, it reads like getting +17/+18.

As we get better technology, we get better Energy projects. Once we get mature Fusion tech, I would not be surprised to be getting +30ish Energy per phase. But that is several iterations of improvements down the road. Given that we have completed the techs relevant to getting better improvements on this iteration, I would not be surprised to see +20 from Gen-2 Fusion, but we'll see.

Shadows said:
I think we should probably crush all the BZ inhibitors this year, too.

This year, or this plan?
Because trying to do all 18 BZ inhibitor locations would eat 54 Energy. Which we cannot get without sacrificing everything else in Heavy Industry, if then. As well as using, on average, almost 30 Tib dice.

Shadows · Sep 30, 2022

Lightwhispers said:
As we get better technology, we get better Energy projects. Once we get mature Fusion tech, I would not be surprised to be getting +30ish Energy per phase. But that is several iterations of improvements down the road. Given that we have completed the techs relevant to getting better improvements on this iteration, I would not be surprised to see +20 from Gen-2 Fusion, but we'll see.

This year, or this plan?
Because trying to do all 18 BZ inhibitor locations would eat 54 Energy. Which we cannot get without sacrificing everything else in Heavy Industry, if then. As well as using, on average, almost 30 Tib dice.

This plan, sorry.

Hawkmoon · Sep 30, 2022

[X] Plan A Decent Spread/Mad Science Squad

Nottheunmaker · Sep 30, 2022

Derpmind said:
We still have at least 9 phases of fusion power plants we need to refurbish after the new fusion design is developed. (More if we're also fixing up the earlier generations that lead to the current design.) Plus there's almost certainly going to be plenty of reasons to rush Energy in the future, like Energy-hungry projects or big ticket items like a TCN megaproject. Like it or not, we're going to be reading about power plants and power plant accessories until the end of the quest.

...Okay.

Is there a way, besides DAE which I'm already strongly in favor of, to get even more energy and/or reduce energy costs? Without so much reading about power plants? Uh, Bergen and the myomer planet give energy, correct? More Red Zone Offensives also give power, though those are off the table right now. What else?

mmgaballah said:
Scirn corruptors had a similar reaction and look how that turned out, besides liquid tip already happens naturally in massive amounts so the tech wouldn't be about making liquid tib but about processing it to gain resources or STUs.

That's the dream, ain't it? Turning liquid death into teir 2 dosh?

Oleg-14191 said:
Maybe even less, if we also reallocate Services die to HI in Q2.

bigking321 said:
That would be amazing.

Going from 4 dice to 6... we could do stuff much faster even with orbital getting the free dice.

Yay 50% increase in productivity!

Considering all the good stuff in services, which I've already been over before, I'm very firmly against swapping out the service die. I'm very happy with where it is.

Crazycryodude · Sep 30, 2022

Nottheunmaker said:
Is there a way, besides DAE which I'm already strongly in favor of, to get even more energy and/or reduce energy costs? Without so much reading about power plants? Uh, Bergen and the myomer planet give energy, correct? More Red Zone Offensives also give power, though those are off the table right now. What else?

Not really. It's either Tiberium power plants or second gen fusion power plants, but we're building power plants of some sort. We're the Treasury, we're going to be building power plants for as long as society still uses electricity.

carterhall · Sep 30, 2022

[X] Plan A Decent Spread/Mad Science Squad
-[X] Tabitha Henessey (+1 Orbital Die) (Must complete Gravitic bay by end of plan)
-[X] Dr. Dinesh Bora (+2 Agriculture Dice, +5 to Genetically Engineered Plants)
-[X] Dr. Taylor Bernard (+1 Heavy Industry Die, +1 energy from DAE) (Must take Department of Alternative Energy before end of plan)
-[X] Dr. Rima Alcard (+1 Light Industry Die, -5 to Light Industry) (unlocks automation/robotics projects)

Calvin · Sep 30, 2022

[X] Plan A Slightly Different Spread
-[X] Dr. Dinesh Bora (+2 Agriculture Dice, +5 to Genetically Engineered Plants)
-[X] Dr. Taylor Bernard (+1 Heavy Industry Die, +1 energy from DAE) (Must take Department of Alternative Energy before end of plan)
-[X] Dr. Rima Alcard (+1 Light Industry Die, -5 to Light Industry) (unlocks automation/robotics projects)
-[X] Adrian Castro (+1 Orbital Die, +5 to spacecraft design and deployment projects)

Almost certainly too late to make a change, but I figure a guaranteed bonus is better than yet another project.

Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web

Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods

The Dorf

Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods

Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.

Sacred Priestess of the Benevolent Dice Gods

Altman be praised