- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Per the threadmark, 400, 450, and 500
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
Per the threadmark, 400, 450, and 500
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Its mentioned in the most recent threadmark, but they are:
-[ ] Military Bay (Progress 0/450: 20 resources per die)
-[ ] Advanced Materials Bay (Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (+8 Capital Goods)
-[ ] Satellite Bay (Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (Discounts Satellites by 20 points)
-[ ] Station Bay (Progress 0/400: 20 resources per die) (-1 Capital Goods) (Discounts stations by 10 points)
-[ ] Gravitic Shipyard (Progress 0/450: 30 resources per die) (-2 STU, -1 Capital Goods)
-[ ] Fusion Shipyard (Progress 0/500: 20 resources per die)
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Dual-use hardware (i.e. electronics). Robust design and engineering institutional knowledge that's familiar with the limits, possibilities, and capabilities of both gravitic and conventional propulsion systems and probably migrates back and forth between working on the two kinds of ship. Strong culture of the importance of building up the ship fleet in general.
One virtue of having the station bay in the first place is that we can afford to do other projects alongside the two Crown Jewel stations and still be reasonably sure they'll complete on time.
All I know is that station bays will make the Starbound party happy and even more inclined to stick up for the treasury, and getting more stations and stuff would make them more confident in any Kane negotiations with them constantly saying "we could just leave your shiny egghead ass on this ticking time bomb of a rook" but in nice polite political terms..... Which when you think about is even more insulting and threatening?
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Nottheunmaker
Altman be praised
- Location
- USG Ishimura
I don't think Advanced Materials would be nearly as effective on the other two stations. Advanced Materials goes hand in hand with engineering.
Though I'd be tickled to see what a bunch of materials scientists and biologists left alone in space would come up with.
Though I'd be tickled to see what a bunch of materials scientists and biologists left alone in space would come up with.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think it needs to be said: the bays are mostly useful for what we plan to or need to do a whole lot of anyways, and are less useful the less we focus on them.
It also needs to be reiterated that they determine the direction of future space build-up options, such that getting a shiny advanced materials satellite is something whose first step is making an advanced materials bay.
For both of these reasons, I really want that advanced materials bay - we have a huge stock of technology to develop, low hanging fruit for days, and that makes that bay incredibly good because that's what it's for. And yes, it makes G-Drives better too.
We have the opportunity to better capitalize on our glut of technologies - I feel that is going to be the better investment, and deferring advanced materials for some hypothetical future station is not to its benefit.
It also needs to be reiterated that they determine the direction of future space build-up options, such that getting a shiny advanced materials satellite is something whose first step is making an advanced materials bay.
For both of these reasons, I really want that advanced materials bay - we have a huge stock of technology to develop, low hanging fruit for days, and that makes that bay incredibly good because that's what it's for. And yes, it makes G-Drives better too.
We have the opportunity to better capitalize on our glut of technologies - I feel that is going to be the better investment, and deferring advanced materials for some hypothetical future station is not to its benefit.
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
uhm so not massive things but fairly big then. good to know
So, of the three currently leading combinations:
Gravity/Fusion/Stations
This combination specializes in a lot of hulls as soon as possible, and making an absolutely massive shipyard when that station becomes available.
It is a very good choice if we plan on putting a lot of dice into orbital over the next plan (ideally, as many or more than we put into the military in the current plan) to make use of choosing an immediate quantity of hulls over a medium term-quality of hulls. Fusion ships will be specialized for cis-lunar operations, and Grav ships specialized for trans-martian operations, leading to slight efficiency gains. It may also accelerate the development of dual fusion/grav ship designs.
Its greatest weakness is that it isn't a focused combination. Absent a ton of extra dice put into the department (which, for the record, I'm for regardless of the combination chosen.), we likely aren't going to be able to focus simultaneously on cis-lunar and trans-martian space, meaning that one of the bays is likely to remain relatively idle for the rest of the plan, making it a 'wasted' slot. This should only be chosen if we are willing to forgo significant civilian economy, tib income/abatement, MAD SCIENCE, and military investments in the coming plan.
Gravity/AdvancedMaterials/Stations
This combination is focused on research, earth industry, and asteroid exploitation.
This is the poke-fun-stuff while otherwise focusing on Earth industry and research (and then a full-steam-ahead investment in space in the following plan) combination. Like Fusion/AdvMat/Stations, it means more income, more energy, more cap goods, more abatement, better military, better everything. But instead of wanting to immediatly turn that into a bunch more orbital infrastructure, it'll instead incentivize us to slow-roll it while new technologies are developed (field refining, Grav Drives mk 2, etc.) so that we either have more effective ships, or can mass-roll-out a sizable number of them (getting G-Drive to be capable of 1+g would allow us to build the ships on Earth would be a masive boon for this) simultaneously.
Its greatest weakness is that it is the slowest initial expansion to our orbital assets. We'll be relegated to using Earth-produced fusion ships for our cislunar operations, making orbital construction comparatively expensive and undesirable until either Grav Drives mk 2 (or further) are developed or a 'real' ship-building station is constructed. We're unlikely to use orbital dice for asteroid mining, instead preferring to focus on tib mining for that sweet, sweet STU production, so it's a bit of a red herring.
Fusion/AdvancedMaterials/Stations
This combination focuses on the industrial development of space, accelerating the development of fusion ships, and gaining leverage against Nod/Kane in negotiations (if they aren't within the next year).
This is the NGU combination. More income, more energy, more cap goods, more abatement, better military, better everything. And we can throw all of excess resources into building station after station after station, or even building lunar cities. And thanks to the AdvMat/Station bays, our next industrial and shipyard stations will likely be significantly more capable than it would be if it lacked either of the bays, accelerating orbital development even more.
Its greatest weakness is that it positions us poorly in the medium term for asteroid exploitation, getting access to the Mass Effect gacha, and dealing with the remaining Scrin in the system. And if we do get better STU refining techs (or develop novel methods of propulsion), the fusion tech-tree may end up being relegated to a distant third-string in importance.
Um dude the stations are not hypothetical a lot of people what Columbia and they will likely demand more than one.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
???
Stations bay is in the lead and I'm voting for it, last I checked. We're getting 3 bays. I just want mats instead of fusion.
The bays are proving grounds for future development and stations. I want mats stations so I need a mats bay.
Oh sorry thought you were saying something else.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
A blast from the past. Man how much changes in just 6 months.
Station plus double shipyards is the combination we have been explicitly told the synergy of by the QM.
That is it will result in much larger/better dedicated shipyards later because we have maximum experience with shipyards AND making large things.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
--GDSS Enterprise Bays--
-[] Military Bay 0/450 4 dice 80R 1%, 5 dice 100R 22%, 6 dice 120R 63%, 7 dice 140R 90%
-[] Advanced Materials Bay 0/400 4 dice 80R 9%, 5 dice 100R 49%, 6 dice 120R 85%, 7 dice 140R 98%
-[] Satellite Bay 0/400 4 dice 80R 9%, 5 dice 100R 49%, 6 dice 120R 85%, 7 dice 140R 98%
-[] Station Bay 0/400 4 dice 80R 9%, 5 dice 100R 49%, 6 dice 120R 85%, 7 dice 140R 98%
-[] Gravitic Shipyard 0/450 4 dice 80R 1%, 5 dice 100R 22%, 6 dice 120R 63%, 7 dice 140R 90%
-[] Fusion Shipyard 0/500 5 dice 100R 6%, 6 dice 120R 36%, 7 dice 140R 74%, 8 dice 160R 94%
On average, call it ~16 dice to get AdvMat + Station + Gravitic, and ~17.5 dice to get Station + Gravitic + Fusion.
We're getting completely different Bay options for Columbia and Shalla. And we won't get the chance to re-visit projects similar to the Enterprise Bays we haven't taken until after we build those other two Stations.
Unfortunately, we're not likely to see zero-g kudzu-crystals or similar Good Ideas.
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"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
View: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEK0dLYO44zKU50xnnnCcSbQgnak5ixU/view?usp=sharing
Ace of Scarabs
Mechanoid Pilot
- Location
- Singapore
[X] Station Bay
[X] Gravitic Shipyard
[X] Fusion Shipyard
[X] Gravitic Shipyard
[X] Fusion Shipyard
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hmm, thinking about how, when to do the bays + other orbital projects. We have roughly 1+16 turns of orbital dice available until the end of next plan, meaning roughly 7752 progress. We definitely want Leo IIs + Station Bay before doing Columbia/Shala for maximum discounts, but where to slide the yard bays in there. In total we are looking at
-Leo IIs 350
-Station Bay 400
-Columbia 2015 (if Leo IIs + Station Bays is done first)
-Shala 2015 (if Leo IIs + Station Bays is done first)
-Conestoga Class Dev 60
-Grav Yard 450
-Fusion Yard 500
For a total of 5790. Doing the yards before starting the stations will give them time to build up a fleet of ships during the station building phase, downside being they might not actually do much until we are done with Shala/Colombia. Idk, thoughts @Simon_Jester, @Derpmind and other plan optimizers?
-Leo IIs 350
-Station Bay 400
-Columbia 2015 (if Leo IIs + Station Bays is done first)
-Shala 2015 (if Leo IIs + Station Bays is done first)
-Conestoga Class Dev 60
-Grav Yard 450
-Fusion Yard 500
For a total of 5790. Doing the yards before starting the stations will give them time to build up a fleet of ships during the station building phase, downside being they might not actually do much until we are done with Shala/Colombia. Idk, thoughts @Simon_Jester, @Derpmind and other plan optimizers?
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Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We know that some amount of work done in Vein Mines shrinks the amount of work needed to complete a stage, but we have no idea how much work that is. I'm assuming each Stage and that there is no cap to this shrinking because I'm assuming the Vein Mines Action chain is transitory towards boreholes.
Except I'm giving it my all. I'm not waiting for the last shot to win to make myself look better, I'm genuinely planning out a course of actions that I think would be the best. Now you mind explaining how Red Zone Mitigation isn't urgent with our current mutations issues?
Do Leo II and Station Bay, then do Columbia and Shalla up to Phase 3 then stop to reevaluate what needs to be done next including Moon Mines since they are producing space for our future lunar habitats among other things.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think there's an argument for building the gravitic yard after designing the Conestogas.
First, to be sure we don't accidentally do anything that then imposes an unwelcome constraint on the Conestoga design itself if we can help it. None of this "that's the biggest the first stage of the rocket can be because otherwise it won't fit through the doors of the contractors' warehouse" crap.
Second, so that we have at least some thoughts based off the Conestoga project itself regarding "the shape of ships to come," and can hopefully design the gravitic yard bay with that basic degree of future-proofing too.
Third, we definitely want to not finalize the gravitic yard design until after the boffins have done any immediately possible rounds of drive optimization (he says, looking pointedly at SCEDQuest)
So yeah, I'm favoring pushing that forward to 2064-65 or so, after Shala, Columbia, and anything mandatory for Plan targets.
...
The fusion yard could go either way. There's a real argument for letting it chug away while we build the other two Crown Jewels in the background, so that we have a sizeable fleet of long-haul deep space craft to make the Earth-Moon run when it's time to build the next big project. Likewise, the materials bay has a lot of up-front benefits, so if it beats the fusion yard, similar arguments apply there.
At the same time, public clamor for Columbia is hot, and I don't want to make everyone wait another six months while we do Yet More Infrastructure. They've already been waiting like that for years.
So my own proposal is a compromise, where our plans go something like this:
2061Q4: Leopard II yard. 1-2 dice on orbital cleanup and/or station bay.
2062Q1: Bulk of feasible dice on station bay. Finish Leopard II yard and/or orbital cleanup.
2062Q2: Finish station bay or start Columbia. Some work on fusion yard or materials bay.
2062Q3: Continue work on Columbia, but with a couple of dice per turn on fusion yard or materials bay.
206XQY: When fusion bay is complete, commence work on Shala, though Columbia is the main focus of development until it completes.
206AQB: When Shala is complete, work on the gravitic yard.
Oledoms
Friesmancer
Closest in comparison will be babylon 5 style ships. Centauri and Narn Ships I think have that combo while Minbari is pure Gravitic only.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes. That assumption is deeply questionable and other people have called you out on it too. At a bare minimum, you should prominently display the assumption.
The problem with 'Mighty Casey's' actions wasn't that he wanted to make himself look better.
The problem with his actions was that he was too arrogant to consider that he might miss. That is to say, that things might not go according to plan. Thus, he gave up irreplaceable opportunities to succeed, because he didn't think he would need them.
You are advocating spending -10 Capital Goods on an optional action with limited immediate payoff, because at best it may (not will, may) prevent us from suffering a Natural 1. The cost of this is that we lose the ability to then use those Capital Goods for any other purpose, including the "saving our asses" purpose some of us anticipate needing them for.
I don't care about your motives in doing so. My point is that even if your intentions are honorable, this is reckless.
It's bad to tell lies about what other people believe.
I've already told you; I'll want to do Red Zone operations (which provide both great income and great mitigation) when ZOCOM gives us the all-clear.
As far as timing goes... my preferred order would be Leopard 2 factory + Station Bay, Columbia 3, Shala 3, shipyards, Columbia 4, Shala 4, Columbia 5, Shala 5. And then re-evaluate, look at those station's bays, and Lunar development. Some re-evaluation can be done after the shipyards, but we'll probably want to still put the majority of our space focus on the stations.
I'd like to put enough free dice into Orbital to get at least a modest possibility of completion of both the Leopard 2 factory and the station bay Q4, finish those Q1 if necessary, and then put at least 5 dice into Columbia to get a decent chance of getting it up to Phase 3 completion as soon as possible.