Lorewise I think the reserve energy is lighting and consumer goods electronic use.

In normal operations the arcologies use energy, but some also have inbuilt solar panels and the like. Enough to help power themselves for day to day things. But in the event of damage to reactors in a war and brownouts for factories some of the energy from the arcologies could be siphoned to industrial purposes. Would that be more or less correct?
 
Yeah, but what I was pointing out is that the proposed system gives a benefit to the behaviour it was not intended to support.
The proposed system does make rushing a megaproject cheaper. This is contrary to the goal of the proposal.
The goal is not to make rushing a megaproject cheaper in the sense of "same result, but now for fewer dice, so you can get it done faster!" This may occasionally be the result but that is likely to be a coincidence. The goal is to make completing a megaproject cheaper. Which is not the same thing.

You keep telling the QM "no, this mechanic should have the effect of letting us rush-complete megaprojects a lot faster," but the QM doesn't even want that to happen. It's just... not what he's trying to accomplish here.

Every time I see people trying to form specific policy positions based on the just-for-fun omake I wrote it wilts my desire to ever write anything like that again.
For the record, my post wasn't even a policy position, that was "I dunno, I don't think we're gonna see full Kane Masterstroke Tier Nod action to retake or destroy the Bogatyr," which... real talk, I don't think we will, for a lot of reasons other than textual analysis of your omake.

This was then followed by basically the exact same analysis of Kane's situation and incentives that I've been making for months now, modified only by Steel Vanguard's successes in the interim. Including the reasons I don't think Kane really gives a shit whether or not we've got access to the Bogatyr.

So does about 10-20 random omake written by a crowd in the discord, which is all the GDI online sections are. Maybe sometimes Granger is written by Squid, but other than that, you should take them with a hefty grain of salt.
Oh, you may be assured that I am taking everything Kane said in that glorious rant with a grain of salt.

In particular because Kane made it spectacularly obvious that he was staging the whole thing in the full knowledge that GDI would see it. He avoided giving away anything that we don't already know with the possible exception of:

1) The Indian warlords' names- which are unreported to Treasury, at any rate.
2) The fact that Kane has access to detailed information about several high level GDI officials' families, private communications, and sugar intake. Which, while important information, is at this point unsurprising.

Kane didn't give any of the warlords specific orders except for Gideon, and I am definitely not trusting that those orders are accurate since they were issued on-camera. At the same time, they are also one of approximately two sets of orders Gideon can realistically be expected to carry out successfully, given that his conventional forces are worn down to a nub. Honly other realistic option is a thermonuclear murder-suicide in which he crashes and burns in an attempt to take BZ-2 and all its contents (notably including Chicago, North Boston, and a sizeable chunk of our naval capacity and other war production) with him. If that happens, we will know.

...

At the same time.

Kane is a rational actor who responds to incentives. We have a rough clue of what some of his incentives are from the endgame of Command and Conquer 4 and the knowledge that the TCN is a (theoretical) thing in this timeline. We can observe many of Kane's other incentives by comparing the balance of powers and forces between Nod and GDI and extrapolating from known facts.

So in many ways, the omake just provides a focal point for us to talk about what we already knew, while bringing into the forefront the in-character fact that Kane is at least taking an interest in the high-level strategic direction of Nod as a confederation.

When it comes to things written by other people that I include in my updates, I am usually (not always, I am simply human after all) quite serious about them. GDIOnline is something that I care about, and like, and the opinions in there, for the most part, are ones where somebody in the crowd holds that opinion. It might not be a popular one, or one that has any bearing on lived reality for the vast majority of the people, but well, rule of large sample sizes applies here. For the Kane piece, it is something where it is scenery chewing purple prose, but that is also informing some of how I approach Kane taking a public position. At the same time, it is what Kane is speaking in a scene where he knows he is bugged and can make a show of things.
Yeah. At the end of it, GDI (and by extension we the players) end up in a condition where all we really know is that we've just watched Kane do a livestream performance in which he rants at his warlords and humiliates most of them right in front of us. And they know they have been humiliated right in front of us.

It wouldn't actually, per se, surprise me if they all suddenly started following a coordinated war plan because Kane has plans for an attack on GDI, one wildly at odds with everything he said in the rant... except that this is a terrible time for Kane to attack GDI, because the instruments he would use to do so have just had the crap blasted out of them.

But if something like this had happened after an isolated string of warlords individually taking shots at us and failing, or after a warlord dogpile in which they were on the offensive and then pulled in their horns after AUTUMN ARCHER fended them off... I'd be fully braced for it to all be a complete deception.

As it is, I think it comes across a bit more as "Kane has actual strategic reasons to order a pause and for his subordinates to abstain from pursuing further full scale war with GDI at this time, and he knows that we've probably figured this out, so he makes a virtue out of necessity by signaling to us that he knows that we know that he knows and so on."

But honestly at this point I'm just running around in circles and the actual omake itself just makes it more fun to do the speculating that I'd be doing anyway just from the bare datum of a three-line summary of that omake.

Looking at this I can only conclude that the energy drain from constantly charging those reserve batteries are the 2 Energy invest for 1 stored is some kind of political graft event. Never mind how they eat up 4 consumer goods of space for one reserve energy. Back up generators with some kind of chemical fuel source would be more efficient for the space an investment. Granted probably also off to the side so it takes nothing else out if it explodes. Also probably an issue needing local tar berry production in the local sewage processor to fix really. Maybe research into some kind of stable chemical fuel with at least a decade of shelf life or regular use of the older fuel.
...You are badly overthinking this.

There are a lot of obvious reasons for the Consumer Goods value of an arcology phase to change other than "we reconfigured the arcology to have more or less Energy Storage capacity."

For instance, a change in the level of amenities the already-existing light industrial and commercial zones within the arcologies are providing. Greater publicization of the arcologies being available leading to higher public satisfaction, so that "people are getting to live in arcologies" registers as more general happiness. Greater effort to use the funds available to incentivize and expand private-sector enterprises that not only furnish arcologies but also make their services available to the community at large, creating a virtuous cycle.

Heavy Industry: 5 dice +15 bonus per dice.

[ ] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants
average 50 rolls: (300/65): 20 resources per Die) (+16 Energy) (-1 Labor)=4.61 dice per CCFP. 5 dice+100=16 energy.
[ ] Division of Alternative Energy
(+3 Energy per turn, -10 Resources per turn, -1 Heavy Industry Dice)
5 dice+50 resources equal to 15 energy
Your math is off here; our Heavy Industry bonus is +29, not +15. Because of this, the real calculation works out much closer to four dice per fusion reactor. Division of Alternative Energy is dice-inefficient but Resource-efficient; we get 12 Energy for four dice and 40 R instead of 16 Energy for four dice and 80 R. Further development of fusion power in the reasonably near future is likely to increase this effect. Overall, the Division is probably worth it, but only because we're likely to run into Resource scarcity issues both early in the Plan, and potentially later in the Plan if we're under heavy pressure to redirect funds into the private sector civilian economy.

[ ] Distributed Heavy Industrial Authority (New)
(+2 Capital Goods per turn, -30 Resources per turn, -1 Heavy Industry Dice)

Fast. Cheap. Good. Classic 'Pick Two' scenario. Its fast and good but not really cheap, but saves on the ever drained energy budget so there is that. Only real issue is at 5 dice in Heavy industry its going to drag free dice into this category regularly to do the big projects if this is done this plan. So your not really saving dice only dragging them in from else where.
I note you didn't do a rundown of the per-die costs.

This is one die for 2 Capital Goods at 30 R. Compared to North Boston Phase 5 (thirty dice for 32 Capital Goods at 15 R/die), this is equally Resource-efficient and far more dice-efficient. It doesn't have all the ancillary rewards, but also lacks ancillary costs. Well and good. Compared to Nuuk Phases 4+5 (45 dice for 96 Capital Goods at 20 R/die), it is competitive- slightly less efficient in dice and considerably less in Resources, but with the considerable advantage that we don't have to wait 1-2 years for the rewards to arrive.

These two are somewhat dubious investments. You only have 5 dice in this category so -2 would leave you with 3 left and require free dice not to make this category mostly useless this plan. I can't recommend these ones currently. The actual projects involved tend to be a better use of dice for now.
Very few, if any, Light Industry projects reliably provide more than +2 Consumer Goods or +1 Capital Goods per die invested in the project. Certainly, none provide better benefits at significantly less dice cost without major corresponding costs in other indicators (Energy, for instance).

It reduces the number of "actual projects," as in "planetary-scale major construction programs" that the department can arrange, but that doesn't mean it isn't using the dice and budget efficiently.

Bureaucracy (4 dice)
[ ] Banking Reforms (New)
(Must maintain 100 resources in reserve.)

An excellent thing to do fourth quarter, as your going to lose a lot of resources afterwards anyway when the next leg of the plan kicks in. Unless all goals are met and you don't want to start projects without them getting in the way of the plan right then. Necessary long term, but expensive now.
I'm not sure it works the way you think, though I'm curious what @Ithillid means. Does the banking option require us to keep 100 R in reserve at all times? Or do the 100 R just straightforwardly vanish from our accounts to be managed separately?


[ ] Predictive Modeling Management (New)
(-10 Capital Goods) (Changes dice to 2d50)
More of the same above. Except it may get less bad if you do the 2364 progress left on 'North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5)' to make better AI for this. Probably.
Actually there is a major advantage to Predictive Modeling Management, one your style of analysis isn't likely to spot.

It greatly reduces dice variance.

When you roll a d100, there is an 80% chance that the output will be somewhere between a 11 and a 90. 10% of outcomes are outliers on either side. This is very high variance, which means that it is very hard to predict what a project is going to do. We've seen this many times- we roll two dice, they're both below a 20 or above an 80, and a project either surges to completion (making us feel like fools if we invested a third die), or fails to thrive (see for instance the freeze drying plants).

When you roll 2d50, there is an approximate 80% chance that the output will be somewhere between a 24 and a 79. Only 10% of outcomes are below 24 and only 10% are above 79. This means that you can predict with considerably more confidence what is likely to happen when you roll, say, two or three Infrastructure dice.

Before the planning option, you're rolling 3d100+102. An unlucky outcome (10th percentile) is 188; a lucky outcome (90th percentile) is 319.

After the planning option, you're rolling 6d50+102. An unlucky outcome is 210; a lucky outcome is 301. The reduced "swing" makes it much easier to predict what will happen when you roll dice, avoiding quite a number of problems we've encountered over the course of the game.

There is also an effective +0.5 to all dice here, because the mean result of rolling a d100 is 50.5, but the mean result of rolling 2d50 is 51.
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October with more Bogatyr and all dice activated

Sure, I'm happy to vote for it now that it has Bogatyr too.
 
I'm not sure it works the way you think, though I'm curious what @Ithillid means. Does the banking option require us to keep 100 R in reserve at all times? Or do the 100 R just straightforwardly vanish from our accounts to be managed separately?
Basically, my thinking is that you will see a new Development Bank line item with 100 resources starting capital in it. It will then grow that starting capital as it is able to invest in things.
 
The goal is not to make rushing a megaproject cheaper in the sense of "same result, but now for fewer dice, so you can get it done faster!" This may occasionally be the result but that is likely to be a coincidence. The goal is to make completing a megaproject cheaper. Which is not the same thing.

You keep telling the QM "no, this mechanic should have the effect of letting us rush-complete megaprojects a lot faster," but the QM doesn't even want that to happen. It's just... not what he's trying to accomplish here.
No, I'm saying that the proposal decreases the cost even if we rush the project (total R spent, not total dice spent). I'm not saying that it should do it.
I am pointing out that it will do something contrary to its intention. The proposal benefits the behaviour that it is the opposite of what it is supposed to encourage.
 
Not even that. From my understanding it's so that there's a reason to actually make a, you know, multi-turn plan that we stick to with consistent investment rather than twisting in the wind to shock one project as our whims take us while meanwhile leaving other lengthy projects to languish.
I kinda don't understand the incentive anymore.

Is it just resource cost reductions? Is there anything else to encourage locking in the dice till the project is done?
 
I kinda don't understand the incentive anymore.

Is it just resource cost reductions? Is there anything else to encourage locking in the dice till the project is done?

Why has the option to lock in dice come up?

Locking dice is itself the benefit. That. rather than someone saying 'we'll do 4 dice this turn and then the next 3 to finish it' And then maybe that persons plan not winning, or them having to reallocate dice due to an emergency coming up.

We have a tendency to either rush major projects out with a tonne of dice all at once. Or we leave it sitting around for ages with no progress.

but a steady amount that there will be dice on it always means it will eventually be done.

Like. We started chicago back in Grangers administration and it still isn't finished. but if dice were locked into it, it should have long ago been completed. And, chicago is a great project, the problem comes that it's so expensive and takes so long that later stages kind of get left while we're busy with other stuff.

Locking in dice means one thing. X will *eventually* be done. Maybe not soon. But it's going to see constant effort until it is done.
 
[X] Plan Hello Civilian Are You Having A Satisfactory Day?
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October with more Bogatyr and all dice activated
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October
 
I kinda don't understand the incentive anymore.

Is it just resource cost reductions? Is there anything else to encourage locking in the dice till the project is done?
The incentives are threefold.

1. It makes it so that you lock dice in, meaning that projects will finish unless something actually major comes up.
2. It makes it so that you can manage a significant number of additional dice to work with.
3. It makes said megaprojects noticeably cheaper.
 
So maybe I'm missing something, but isn't one of the benefits of spinning off dice that the GM will be much more comfortable giving us chances to gain dice? We trade dice for a decent amount of energy/capgoods/consuum/what have you, and then there's an option to get more dice further down the line? And not even that long after? I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't want to do. I can understand not wanting to do it until before reallocation, but some people seem unwilling to do at all. No great majority mind, but some.
 
Like. We started chicago back in Grangers administration and it still isn't finished. but if dice were locked into it, it should have long ago been completed. And, chicago is a great project, the problem comes that it's so expensive and takes so long that later stages kind of get left while we're busy with other stuff.
The thing is... there were damn good reasons we didn't finish Chicago. Such as "popular demand for arcologies." Such as "tiberium was about to eat the Ka'aba, and once we got involved in Arabia, we needed to secure those investments to secure the neutrality of the Caravanserai," which has paid off massively in the current war. Such as building the ICS and the wartime infrastructure of fortress towns and railroads that supported Steel Vanguard and kept our Logistics totals high despite heavy Nod raiding and the demands of prosecuting an offensive war.

Would ignoring any of those considerations in favor of checking "finish Chicago" off our to-do list have been a good idea we'd feel proud of in hindsight if we knew what we'd sacrificed to get Chicago done? I think not.

I have no regrets about Chicago still standing at Phase 3/5.

Not even that. From my understanding it's so that there's a reason to actually make a, you know, multi-turn plan that we stick to with consistent investment rather than twisting in the wind to shock one project as our whims take us while meanwhile leaving other lengthy projects to languish.
Honestly, one look at Orbital suggests that "inability to long term plan" isn't really our problem. Our actions in Orbital have been minutely planned and optimized throughout the entire Four Year Plan to date.

It's not that we can't plan ahead to deal with a known and predictable need that we are aware of far in advance.

It's that the situation and the things we need keep changing, and that we are often under time pressure imposed on us by external constraints ("we need the Capital Goods in time to do this project" or "in 2058 we lose all our budget so we'd better have Mecca-Medina-Jeddah done by then").

...

The reason we "shock" entire phases of a major project is typically because we usually do have a genuine incentive to complete them in a timely manner. Usually because we never, never have enough Capital Goods, or because we're under political pressure to do something while we still have the budget and before the politicians give us a kicking.

The plans may get voted on quarter-by-quarter, but the people writing the plans are usually thinking about "what next" factors pretty seriously. There are exceptions,* but our planning horizon is not short.

Also, in regard to critiques of the thread's long-term planning ability... Um.

[looks at Plan If you can't do it alone, get some help. ]

I observe...

1) No effort to build apartments or medium/high-quality housing of any kind despite a massive incoming refugee wave using up 10 Housing per turn with no end in sight, only +1 Housing/turn of medium/high quality housing is planned for.

(EDIT: I overlooked BoSPaladin's intent to found the Bureau of Arcologies, which would take care of 10% of our incoming refugee wave for as long as it goes on. My apologies to BoSPaladin for mischaracterizing his plan; the error was accidental.)

2) Nine Heavy Industry dice, none of them on the mandatory crystal beam lasers that has 547 Progress left to go with three turns on the clock, along with you signing away two of our normal Heavy Industry dice so we have three dice per turn on which to complete a mandatory 547-point project. Just possible without Free dice if we do nothing else... including need to spend dice finishing any of the existing ongoing projects. And if we get quite lucky, since we need to roll an average of 61.2 or higher on six d100s. Problematic otherwise.

3) No effort to complete either of two ongoing Light Industry projects, in favor of starting a third one we don't pressingly need while at the same time spinning off two of our five dice so we lack the means to do much to finish said third project without completely ignoring the other two, or vice versa.

4) Only four dice on the Stored Food target despite the fact that we have three turns left and the project will require twelve dice to complete even with no bad luck unless we take E-CRP, which admittedly you may be counting on doing, since I don't remember whether you're pro- or anti-CRP.

5) Six orbital dice, all allocated to doing literally anything but the Plan goals when we have effectively zero spare dice to burn, acting for all the world as if Enterprise were already completed instead of having nearly 1200 Progress left to go. If your plan won, we would need to invest a minimum of about nine dice per turn into Enterprise per turn just to avoid a massive humiliation with Starbound, the political party that just went to bat for us.

6) 8.5 Military dice, exactly 2.5 of which are allocated to mandatory Plan targets, though I will grant you that all the non-mandatory stuff you have voted to do is actually very useful and stuff I too want to do. It's just that after a turn like this, we'd need excellent luck just to meet our Plan targets in Military without spending Free dice, really excellent luck, and there's about a 50/50 chance we wouldn't even have a Zone Armor factory to show for it plus we'd have no spare dice left to finish it without spending Free dice, which we couldn't do much of because we'd need those Free dice over in probably Agriculture, possibly Heavy Industry, and especially Orbital.

7) From a starting position of having +5 Energy, undertakes actions likely to drain -4 (Anadyr) -4 (Personal Vehicles) -1 (fertilizers) = -9 Energy, and actions with sub-50% but still relevant chances of success draining up to another -2 (ranching) -3 (London Zone Armor) -3 (New York Zone Armor) = up to -8 more Energy... With a 12% chance of not completing any power plants and sending GDI into potentially massive rolling brownouts, despite having nine Heavy Industry dice to play with.

...

I am not quite sure what to make of this, juxtaposed with the claim that the thread has problems with long-term planning and remembering to finish actually important goals before chasing off in pursuit of new shiny projects.

So maybe I'm missing something, but isn't one of the benefits of spinning off dice that the GM will be much more comfortable giving us chances to gain dice? We trade dice for a decent amount of energy/capgoods/consuum/what have you, and then there's an option to get more dice further down the line? And not even that long after? I'm having a hard time understanding why some people don't want to do. I can understand not wanting to do it until before reallocation, but some people seem unwilling to do at all. No great majority mind, but some.
I am definitely willing to do it, and every one of the "spinoff department" actions I've seen so far is something I want to do either before reallocation or right after it, except for the "Capital Goods in Light Industry" option, which I think is inefficient and should wait so we aren't stuck trying to build Reykjavik Phase 5 to support our power armor rollout with only three Light Industry dice per turn, which would take about five turns and be a huge pain in the neck.

But I want to make sure we don't accidentally cripple ourselves in important areas at an inopportune time. See above.
 
Last edited:
Really? Comparing a Kane Masterstroke that was years in the making, with... what resources do they have to attack the Bogatyr research base? The not-fully-in-action Order of the Remembrancer, who already tried once and bounced?
Do you know how much less defended Bogatyr is then Cheyene was? Or the simple fact the Brotherhood only needs to deny it rather than recover anything?

You don't need to remind me about the Remembrancers or that Bogatyr is lucky to have lasted this long. And you don't need a master stroke to smuggle in a backpack nuke or two close to the site. Not like there's any major retaliation we'd be willing to do over nuking a research site. don't even have to worry about exfiltration, just get in relatively close- set up the fairly cheap fission bomb and all of problems of Bogatyr go away. That's the worst case, but it's definitely possible and not even a major commitment.
 
As no one else seems to be doing an item by item evaluation
I Have Been Summoned. *Aggressively Fixes Bow Tie*

CategoryNameProgress CostCurrent ProgressDice EstimatedDice RoundedRpDR CostHousing ProducedHousing Per DieHousing Per RHousing Type
InfrastructureYZ Fortress Towns Phase 6
300​
220​
0.7692​
1​
20​
20​
4​
4​
0.2​
Low
InfrastructureBZ Apartment Complexes Phase 6
160​
0​
1.716​
2​
10​
20​
6​
3​
0.3​
High
InfrastructureBZ Apartment Complexes Phase 6-7
320​
0​
3.6095​
4​
10​
40​
12​
3​
0.3​
High
InfrastructureBZ Apartment Complexes Phase 6-8
480​
0​
5.503​
6​
10​
60​
18​
3​
0.3​
High
InfrastructureYZ Fortress Towns Phase 6-7
600​
220​
4.3195​
5​
20​
100​
8​
1.6​
0.08​
Low
InfrastructureBZ Arcologies Stage 4
650​
1​
7.503​
8​
15​
120​
8​
1​
0.0667​
High
InfrastructureKarachi Phase 1-2
195​
0​
2.1302​
2​
20​
40​
2​
1​
0.05​
Low
InfrastructureBureau of ArcologiesAutoAuto
1​
1​
20​
20​
1​
1​
0.05​
High
InfrastructureKarachi Phase 1-3
455​
0​
5.2071​
6​
20​
120​
4​
0.6667​
0.0333​
Low
InfrastructureKarachi Phase 1-4
975​
0​
11.3609​
12​
20​
240​
8​
0.6667​
0.0333​
Low
InfrastructureKarachi Phase 1-5
2015​
0​
23.6686​
24​
20​
480​
12​
0.5​
0.025​
Low
InfrastructureChicago Phase 4-5
1650​
3​
19.3136​
20​
20​
400​
7​
0.35​
0.0175​
Low
InfrastructureChicago Phase 4
550​
3​
6.2959​
7​
20​
140​
2​
0.2857​
0.0143​
Low
Note: A more thorough analysis would split the high and low quality housing apart, however, I don't believe it is beneficial when the main concern is housing the incoming Refugees, not seeking to put everyone in arcologies or high quality apartments.
Housing Summary:
-YZ Fortresses and Apartments remain the most die and R efficient means of producing Housing. It is a pity that it is Arcologies that people want.
-Arcologies and the Bureau of Arcologies have the same average per die cost and normal arcologies has a slightly more efficient per R cost, that is neatly couterbalanced by it producing twice as many Consumer Goods as discussed below
-Karachi and Chicago have lower Housing per die and per R figures then the other four Housing production options as that isn't their primary purpose.

CategoryNameProgress CostCurrent ProgressDice EstimatedDice RoundedRpDR CostEnergy ProducedEnergy Per DieEnergy Per R
Heavy IndustryFusion Plants Phase 8
300​
243​
0.5283​
1​
20​
20​
16​
16​
0.8​
TiberiumLiquid Tiberium Phase 1
140​
41​
0.9385​
1​
20​
20​
8​
8​
0.4​
Heavy IndustryDivision of Alternative Energy
1​
1​
10​
10​
3​
3​
0.3​
Heavy IndustryCrystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment
600​
51​
6.717​
7​
20​
140​
10​
1.4286​
0.0714​
TiberiumRed Zone Tiberium Harvesting
150​
29​
1.1844​
1​
25​
25​
1​
1​
0.04​
LCIBergen Phase 3
380​
71​
3.9463​
4​
30​
120​
4​
1​
0.0333​
LCIBergen Phase 3-4
1140​
71​
14.1477​
14​
30​
420​
12​
0.8571​
0.0286​
LCIBergen Phase 3-5
2660​
71​
34.5503​
35​
30​
1050​
28​
0.8​
0.0267​
TiberiumRed Zone Border Offensives
250​
0​
2.6257​
3​
25​
75​
2​
0.6667​
0.0267​
TiberiumRed Zone Tiberium Harvesting
300​
29​
2.8603​
3​
25​
75​
2​
0.6667​
0.0267​
TiberiumRed Zone Containment Lines
225​
54​
1.743​
2​
25​
50​
1​
0.5​
0.02​
TiberiumRed Zone Containment Lines
450​
54​
4.257​
5​
25​
125​
2​
0.4​
0.016​
TiberiumMARV RZ
335​
0​
4.183​
4​
20​
80​
1​
0.25​
0.0125​
LCIReykjavik Phase 5
1280​
50​
16.3087​
17​
20​
340​
4​
0.2353​
0.0118​
Energy Summary:
-The top three Energy producers remain Fusion Plants, Liquid Tiberium, and Alternative Energy. With the current progress in them finishing the current Fusion phase is far and above the rest. With zero progress assumptions for Fusion and Liquid Tiberium, they are roughly identical (both with~ 4 Energy per die and ~.2 Energy per R), with Liquid Tib being slightly cheaper Progress wise and Fusion not costing PS. Alternative Energy is slightly more efficient on a per R basis with when compared to the other two with zero progress, but is only 3 Energy per die to their 4.
-Next we have Crystal Beams, RZ Tib harvesting, and Bergen which all give about between 1.5 and .8 Energy per die. Crystal Beams is the front runner here, and has a much larger lead with the Energy per R.
-At the bottom are the other RZ Tib projects along with Reykjavik, they are not effective producers of Energy, and what Energy we get from them is a bonus compared to their primary purposes of income.

CategoryNameProgress CostCurrent ProgressDice EstimatedDice RoundedRpDR CostCapital ProducedCapital Per DieCapital Per R
Heavy IndustryIsolinear Chip Foundry Anadyr
320​
243​
0.7799​
1​
50​
50​
4​
4​
0.08​
Heavy IndustryNuuk Phase 4
1200​
143​
13.1069​
13​
20​
260​
32​
2.4615​
0.1231​
Heavy IndustryNuuk Phase 4-5
3600​
143​
43.2956​
44​
20​
880​
96​
2.1818​
0.1091​
Heavy IndustryDistributed Heavy Industrial AuthorityAutoAuto
1​
1​
30​
30​
2​
2​
0.0667​
OrbitalEnterprise Advanced Materials Bay
400​
0​
4.7239​
5​
20​
100​
8​
1.6​
0.08​
Heavy IndustryNorth Boston Phase 5
2400​
36​
29.5472​
30​
15​
450​
32​
1.0667​
0.0711​
LCICarbon Nanotube Foundry Expansions
300​
0​
3.8255​
4​
20​
80​
4​
1​
0.05​
LCIDepartment of Distributed ManufacturesAutoAuto
1​
1​
20​
20​
1​
1​
0.05​
InfrastructureChicago Planned City Phase 4-5
1650​
3​
19.3136​
20​
20​
400​
18​
0.9​
0.045​
InfrastructureChicago Planned City Phase 4
550​
3​
6.2959​
7​
20​
140​
6​
0.8571​
0.0429​
Heavy IndustryCrystal Beam Industrial Laser Deployment
600​
51​
6.717​
7​
20​
140​
6​
0.8571​
0.0429​
AgricultureSpider Cotton Phase 1
170​
0​
2.0805​
2​
15​
30​
1​
0.5​
0.0333​
LCIReykjavik Phase 5
1280​
50​
16.3087​
17​
20​
340​
8​
0.4706​
0.0235​
AgricultureSpider Cotton Phase 1-3
540​
0​
7.047​
7​
15​
105​
3​
0.4286​
0.0286​
AgricultureSpider Cotton Phase 1-2
350​
0​
4.4966​
5​
15​
75​
2​
0.4​
0.0267​
AgricultureSpider Cotton Phase 1-4
740​
0​
9.7315​
10​
15​
150​
4​
0.4​
0.0267​
LCIBergen Phase 1-4
1140​
0​
15.1007​
15​
30​
450​
6​
0.4​
0.0133​
LCIBergen Phase 3
380​
0​
4.8993​
5​
30​
150​
2​
0.4​
0.0133​
LCIBergen Phase 3-5
2660​
0​
35.5034​
36​
30​
1080​
14​
0.3889​
0.013​
AgricultureSpider Cotton Phase 1-5
950​
0​
12.5503​
13​
15​
195​
5​
0.3846​
0.0256​
OrbitalEnterprise Phase 5
1535​
348​
14.3804​
15​
20​
300​
2​
0.1333​
0.0067​
Capital Goods Summary:
-Finishing Anadyr has moved to the top spot for Capital Goods per Die efficiency being more then 50% more efficient then Nuuk. Though Nuuk is still more effective on a per R basis.
-The Heavy Industrial Authority is only slightly behind Nuuk in Capital Goods per Die efficiency, though it is much further behind on a per R basis.
-The Advanced Materials Bay remains the mid ground between Nuuk and Boston
-Boston, Carbon Nanotubes, and Distributed Manufactories all have ~1 Capital Goods per Die efficiency, though Boston is slightly more efficient then that and is much more efficient per R. Indeed Boston is more efficient per R wise then the Heavy Industrial Authority.
-Chicago and Crystal beams have efficiencies between .9 and .85, just below Carbon Nanotubes and Distributed Manufactories
-Spider Cotton, Bergen, and Rekjavik all have per die efficiencies between .5 and just below .4, with Bergen's per R efficiencies being the lowest.
-Enterprise is the least efficient at producing Capital Goods.

CategoryNameProgress CostCurrent ProgressDice EstimatedDice RoundedRpDR CostConsumer ProducedConsumer Per DieConsumer Per R
LCIChemical Fertilizer Plants
300​
276​
0.1208​
1​
15​
15​
4​
4​
0.2667​
LCICivilian Ultralight Factories
190​
0​
2.349​
3​
15​
45​
8​
2.6667​
0.1778​
AgricultureRanching Domes
250​
0​
3.1544​
3​
20​
60​
8​
2.6667​
0.1333​
AgricultureVertical Farming Projects Stage 2
240​
65​
2.1477​
2​
15​
30​
4​
2​
0.1333​
Heavy IndustryPersonal Electric Vehicle Plants
300​
0​
3.5849​
4​
10​
40​
8​
2​
0.2​
LCIDepartment of Consumer Industrial Development
1​
1​
15​
15​
2​
2​
0.1333​
AgricultureWadmalaw Kudzu Phase 3
450​
56​
5.0872​
5​
10​
50​
8​
1.6​
0.16​
InfrastructureChicago Planned City Phase 4
550​
3​
6.2959​
7​
20​
140​
8​
1.1429​
0.0571​
InfrastructureBureau of Arcologies
1​
1​
20​
20​
1​
1​
0.05​
LCICivilian Drone Factories
380​
104​
3.5034​
4​
10​
40​
4​
1​
0.1​
ServicesSports Programs
250​
102​
1.7161​
2​
10​
20​
2​
1​
0.1​
InfrastructureChicago Planned City Phase 4-5
1650​
3​
19.3136​
20​
20​
400​
18​
0.9​
0.045​
Heavy IndustryNorth Boston Phase 5
2400​
36​
29.5472​
30​
15​
450​
16​
0.5333​
0.0356​
InfrastructureBZ Arcologies Stage 4
650​
1​
7.503​
8​
15​
120​
4​
0.5​
0.0333​
OrbitalShala Phase 1-5
2610​
0​
31.8405​
32​
20​
640​
7​
0.2188​
0.0109​
OrbitalShala Phase 1-4
1255​
0​
15.2147​
16​
20​
320​
3​
0.1875​
0.0094​
OrbitalShala Phase 1-3
580​
0​
6.9325​
7​
20​
140​
1​
0.1429​
0.0071​
OrbitalEnterprise Phase 5
1535​
348​
14.3804​
15​
20​
300​
2​
0.1333​
0.0067​
Consumer Goods Summary:
-Finishing Chemical Fertilizer is hands down the most effective project for Consumer Goods at present
-Civilian Ultralights and Ranching Domes both have the same per die efficiencies, though Ultralights has the greater per R, and they both beat our the Electric Vehicles, Vert Farms, and Consumer Industrial on a per die basis, event though Electric vehicles is better on a per R.
-Kudzu holds the middle ground between Consumer Industrial and Chicago, the Bureau of Arcologies, Civilian Drones, and Sports Programs.
-The Bureau of Arcologies is twice as efficient as the normal Arcologies which is about as efficient as Boston.
-At the bottom we have Shala and Enterprise with roughly comparable efficiencies.
 
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@doruma1920 , it should be noted that in some cases you are comparing "finish a mostly-finished project" to "start a new project."

For example, Anadyr was a considerably less dice-efficient way to get Capital Goods than Nuuk when we started building it; it just looks efficient now that we're about 3/4ths of the way done.

For maximum bowtied informativity, you might want to slightly amend some of your summaries to say things like "Finishing Chemical Fertilizer is hands down the most effective project for Consumer Goods at present."

Well that's a fucking lie.
All right, granted, granted, that's fair. I'm sorry. You definitely did have a +1 Housing/turn trickle planned to help balance out the -10 Housing/turn torrent of refugees. I overlooked it because it didn't match my preconceptions about what a serious attempt to address the problem would look like. I apologize and will edit my critique accordingly.

Any comment on the other six points I raised?
 
@doruma1920 , it should be noted that in many cases you are comparing "finish a mostly-finished project"

For example, Anadyr was a considerably less dice-efficient way to get Capital Goods than Nuuk when we started building it; it just looks efficient now that we're about 3/4ths of the way done. You might want to slightly amend some of your summaries to say things like "Finishing Chemical Fertilizer is hands down the most effective project for Consumer Goods at present.

*Waves hands*

Yes, and thats what my point was with the Energy comparisons. Added a couple 'finishing's' to make the point more blatant. These analyses are primary what the current state of events is. What is most effective right now, not what is most effective overall. Longterm effectiveness is more clear when multiple phases are shown.
 
*Waves hands*

Yes, and thats what my point was with the Energy comparisons. Added a couple 'finishing's' to make the point more blatant. These analyses are primary what the current state of events is. What is most effective right now, not what is most effective overall. Longterm effectiveness is more clear when multiple phases are shown.
That's a good call. I wasn't criticizing, only suggesting that you add the word "finishing" to help make it clear that, for example, Anadyr is only an efficient way to get Capital Goods because we've invested so much into finishing it. Which you have done.
 
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October with more Bogatyr and all dice activated
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October

[X] Plan Hello Civilian Are You Having A Satisfactory Day?
 
Last edited:
You definitely did have a +1 Housing/turn trickle planned to help balance out the -10 Housing/turn torrent of refugees. I overlooked it because it didn't match my preconceptions about what a serious attempt to address the problem would look like.

And four dice into the fortress towns, guaranteeing at least one phase and possibly a second, for a combined total of +9 housing this turn, meaning overall we drop housing to 43 surplus this turn, admittedly with 32 of that being low quality, but that has the benefit of also anchoring our current territory with defensive positions, and sets up green zone intensification phases for tiberium for cheap tiberium harvesting efforts that shouldn't require major amounts of zone armour until we've got it set up.

Beyond that, the 1 high quality housing per turn on its own isn't much, but at the least is consistent high quality housing, and also, notably cheapens our arcology projects.

'not what a serious attempt to address the problem would look like' is something I could say about your so called 'plans' for zone armour. With 0 zone armour factories in your plan. But, oh, you totally plan to do them later. Something I've frankly heard a whole lot of but not much actual doing.

Any comment on the other six points I raised?

No. Your immediate response to my plan is right out the gate to be dishonest and say I make no effort to build apartments or other medium/high quality housing, when it does in fact include spinning off the arcology department.

Then, when I call you out on your incorrect statement you proceed to downplay it and say the plan doesn't do' enough'.

Well guess what, your plan doesn't do enough for things I want either. I've been repeatedly asking for zone armour and there's been vague talk about some later which has never arrived.

You don't like my plan. Fine. I don't like yours. But let's address one point you make.

7) From a starting position of having +5 Energy, undertakes actions likely to drain -4 (Anadyr) -4 (Personal Vehicles) -1 (fertilizers) = -9 Energy, and actions with sub-50% but still relevant chances of success draining up to another -2 (ranching) -3 (London Zone Armor) -3 (New York Zone Armor) = up to -8 more Energy... With a 12% chance of not completing any power plants and sending GDI into potentially massive rolling brownouts, despite having nine Heavy Industry dice to play with.

I also spin off the department of alternate energy, adding +3 energy. So that if the fusion plants don't finish, from the actions likely to drain 9 energy, it takes us into our reserve.

For us to actually use all of the reserve, A the fusion plants would have to not finish, they're more likely than not to finish. But you then take 3 projects, all below fifty percent chance of completion. And the odds on all three completing are very low.

You in one breath point out that fusion plants that's likely to finish might not finish. (88%) While at the same time also counting the lower chance of vehicle plants completing against my plan. (71%)

Your argument style is dishonest and delusional. I'm making a good effort to complete plan goals like consumer goods and anadyr. Also put some dice into food storage. But yes, bluntly speaking a whole bunch of my plan does push back a bunch of plan goals that were made years ago. The flip side to that is that it's addressing actual challenges that we have now and complaints that have been levelled against the treasury.

High quality housing. Addressed. Consumer goods, addressed. Starbound want actual habitation and proof of concept to check for things critical to long term space habitation, that being a space habitat itself and growing food. While orbital cleanup should make satellites cheaper. There's also a die towards urls and 2 dice to shipyards. So I AM trying to put effort towards plan goals.

And bluntly, your other bullet point 'complaints' aren't worth responding to. I could for example claim I'm going to do Crp next turn after "I've seen how the people can handle it." But honestly. I'm fully willing to break that plangoal over my knee. Either the political cost goes down as people see that we are making efforts to ensure normal food production and even more than that luxury food production. In which case it can be done cheaply to finish existing goals. Or, the political cost stays, and parliament and the people effectively confirm that they would prefer actual food rather than foul tasting recycled carb noodles.

Happy with my explanation? I doubt it. But you're not changing my mind. I voted for stuff I want and that I think will do good.
 
[X] Plan Roses Too
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October with more Bogatyr and all dice activated
[X] Plan Attempting To Be Done By October
 
High quality housing. Addressed. Consumer goods, addressed. Starbound want actual habitation and proof of concept to check for things critical to long term space habitation, that being a space habitat itself and growing food. While orbital cleanup should make satellites cheaper. There's also a die towards urls and 2 dice to shipyards. So I AM trying to put effort towards plan goals.

And bluntly, your other bullet point 'complaints' aren't worth responding to. I could for example claim I'm going to do Crp next turn after "I've seen how the people can handle it." But honestly. I'm fully willing to break that plangoal over my knee. Either the political cost goes down as people see that we are making efforts to ensure normal food production and even more than that luxury food production. In which case it can be done cheaply to finish existing goals. Or, the political cost stays, and parliament and the people effectively confirm that they would prefer actual food rather than foul tasting recycled carb noodles.
But honestly. I'm fully willing to break that plangoal over my knee.
Ok. Now That? That is not ok.

There is a serious disconnect in our points of view. You clearly do not consider what we have agreed to at the start of the Plan, and affirmed during the renegotiations, as something done in good faith. Or you are assuming we, as the Treasury, have a lot more latitude to do things and that we should ignore the deal we made with parliament. Or you are assuming we can eat the political cost of not doing the job we agreed to.

What you seem to be saying is you consider the rabble rousing of some of Parliament to be more important then what we have actually agreed to do. Yes, Starbound does want better habitation for space, but that is not one of our Plan Goals. And yes, there is a desire for better and more high quality foods in the general public, but again they are not part of our Plan Goals.

You may be willing to 'break that plangoal over [your] knee' but I am not. That is not a viable option given the circumstances. A cavalier attitude towards deliberately ignoring plan goals without knowing the potential costs for doing so is not beneficial in the slightest.

What do you think will happen if we do deliberately break our plan goals, that we will get off scot free? There would be political consequences, not just mechanically with PS costs, but narratively with harsher plan goals right back in Food Reserves for the next plan. And likely harsher goals elsewhere as well as members of parliament will want to take into account that, unlike in previous FYPs, maybe some plan goals will deliberately not be met. Thus they will hedge their bets and put higher demands on the Treasury.
 
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