We already delayed the capital goods projects to get wartime factory refits and the extra mil dice for Karachi, and Ground Forces have high confidence now. I don't think the bonus from another stage of ablatives is going to make up for slowing down the economy as we go into a world war.
 
The war factory refits are done , and the other big invasion projects are finishing up under both plans. The big difference is that the military plan is using 6 free dice to get one stage of ablatives and one stage of orbital drop troopers.

A stage of ablatives might be nice, but the game changing projects, like Zone Armor, are stuck waiting on capital goods.
Orbital drop troopers are a game changer. If it wasn't for all the consumables we've been delaying for so long, I'd be pushing for way more than three dice on OSRCT. As-is, I'm just happy to get the first phase done so our Space Force has some teeth on them.
 
[X] Plan Catching-Up The Military
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
[X] Plan Industry and Deployment
[X] Plan Prep for Karachi 2061
[X] Plan Robots, Ace Combat, and Combine Harvesters
 
Stop short-selling the Barghest-bis. A combination of Tib-haze and increasing speed has made ranges effectively much shorter and missiles less reliable. Dogfights can and do happen, and they're the Barghest's preferred operating environment. The Barghest-bis is fast enough to force such an engagement and has missiles to shoot its way in. And once it gets in, it has a dramatic kinematic advantage over the Firehawk. If they don't decisively win the merge, they're effectively screwed. Yes, the Firehawk can still secure kills under favorable circumstances, but it's entirely too close to a fair fight for the zoomies to be happy. they want an edge.
Stop overselling the Barghest-B.

Its a significant improvement over the Barghest-A, and brings it much closer to matching the Firehawk in combat effectiveness. But that does not translate to combat equivalence or overmatch, since things other than airframe kinematics matter, including stuff like ECCM, which we cracked Nod's version a while back.

And that doesnt even include the missile itself. Unknown range, unknown maneuverability, unknown accuracy, unknown vulnerability to GDI ECM. From a Brotherhood that has not designed or built an air to air missile in at least three decades, versus GDI that has been operating said missiles for decades now. Short of an Act of Kane, I call bullshit on the idea that its some sort of equalizer.

You could give them blueprints of a GDI QAAM, and I'd have doubts about their ability to mass produce it sustainably.
Because thats not been their hat.

Thats inaccurate. Even in the ECM environment of Tiberium Earth, detection and engagement ranges of 20km are achievable on the ground, let alone in the air with the aid of both radar and EO/IR. By comparison, gun ranges are on the order of 2km.
We invented the QAAM to replace our notSidewinders for a reason.

Of course they want an edge; fair fights are for suckers.
But like I've pointed out, its not of sufficient concern to throw up a Firehawk upgrade on our priority list. That points at a significantly more dangerous threat, but not a paradigm shift.
 
So, got done with a family thing, and recovered from the food coma enough to read/type.
A few responses:
Delaying Karachi means surrendering the initiative back to NOD--and if there's one thing they're good at it's running with the initiative.
The thing is, we *know* they're coming. They'll be attacking either way. Delaying Karachi may mean some warlords attack when they feel ready, rather than when they feel pressured into it, but it also gives us the benefits both of not being attacked all at once, allowing us to shift reserves and supplies around, and, well... see below.
Has the consensus on Karachi 2060 changed? I'm leaning towards doing it next turn. While delaying it a year gives us time to prepare, it gives Nod as much time to prepare.
Yes, it gives them the same amount of time, but your statement assumes that NOD can do as much or better with that time than we can. I dispute that. We have some issues that can be addressed with a few turns of effort, which will likely *significantly* help our overall readiness.

Now, looking at the top plans:
-Plan Catching-Up The Military
For a "going all-in on military to prep for Karachi (and probably kicking off TibWar 4)" plan, it's pretty good. I'd like to see Wingman Drones and Escort Carriers Q1, since they're not on this turn's list, but there's only so much we can do.

-Plan Robots, Ace Combat, and Combine Harvesters
I'd prefer Fortress Towns over Arcologies, because I do think we need more Green Zone fortifications. I like pushing into Nuuk, and going for energy weapon development is probably a good thing, although it's not exactly what I'd pick. But I would prefer doing Lunar Heavy Metal mining, rather than Rare Metals.

-Plan Chimeraguard
I'd do 2 and 2 dice on Perennials and Kudzu, so that each has a decent chance of completion. Otherwise, it's another "all-in on military" with more developments, which is probably not a bad thing.

-Plan Industry and Deployment
Rail Network: no. why? MARVs: No. We need global military boosts, not localized ones.
Stop overselling the Barghest-B.

Its a significant improvement over the Barghest-A, and brings it much closer to matching the Firehawk in combat effectiveness. But that does not translate to combat equivalence or overmatch, since things other than airframe kinematics matter, including stuff like ECCM, which we cracked Nod's version a while back.
The Barghest-A is, IIRC, *better* at air superiority than the Firehawk. Note how a wing of Firehawks boosted on top of a squadron of Barghests, and took 5 losses to down 6 Barghests, during the Arkhangelsk warm-up to St. Petersburg.
 
For those who would of otherwise voted for my plan had it not had Tiberium power there is an updated version without Tib-power here: Both new versions


In order:
1)Yes it does matter.
It translates to how many targets a single Firehawk can simultaneously engage. The ability to throw multiple missiles at a single target markedly improves your ability to generate a kill; a pK of 0.5 with one missile jumps to 0.75 with a pair of them.

2) We know nothing about the range of the missiles the Barghest-B carries, how good the seekers are, how susceptible they are to GDI ECM and decoys. I mean, it wasnt that long ago that we cracked Nod ECCM.
Just carrying missiles does not translate to suddenly matching GDI engagement range or missile capability.

3)Turning battle is not likely to be a big part of GDI doctrine. We developed the QAAM for a reason.

High offbore targeting is a thing with modern missiles. You can literally launch a missile over your shoulder at a pursuer you have on radar or EODAS. And regardless the Barghest's ability to sustain 15-20 gravity maneuvers doesnt help when a turn of the century AIM-9 Sidewinder can do 60 gravity maneuvers.

4)You are misreading that.
It doesnt say that the Barghest is better than the Firehawk; it says that the Firehawk no longer meets Air Force requirements to be in the air superiority role. That may be that its kill ratio has dropped against new Nod aircraft and SAMs, or simply that its being outperformed by the Apollo.
1. Please stop short-selling the Barghest. You are aware that their pilots (litteral brains in a jar that they are) are used to trying to evade the QAAM by now, yes? It's still effective, I don't doubt that. But their chances of getting past it are slightly better than they used to be. Add onto that, that a large engagement will see some pilots save missiles at the start to give the considerably more manoeuvrable Barghest pilot less chance to evade and thus a higher chance to kill despite the greater risk to themselves. Not to mention that it's hard to fire off you nice big racks of missiles if the other guy just dumped a pair of missiles in your face.

Care to also say that those missiles aren't all that important when our pilots can no longer almost guarantee a risk-free kill at long range? Or how about the part of the battle they were first mentioned in that noted our own pilots being at a disadvantage, in large part because our doctrine and training doesn't include our pilots evading missiles coming at them from hostile aircraft?

2. Actually, the battles where we have seen them note that they are actually a significant danger to our Firehawks hinting at either only a slightly shorter range or a broadly similar range. As for their ability to get through our ECM, we're trading on relatively even terms, even in an ambush. I would note that not only are we unable to guarantee hits with the QAAM in the same way that we could with older missiles (read the battle text) but I would remind you to not get cocky about "cracking" Nod ECCM. ECM and ECCM are constantly evolving fields and what we crack today could change entirely a year from now. Especially since Nod knows we're likely to be trying to beat their ECCM, it's a constant fight to keep ahead and Nod already has something of an edge over us in this particular field.

Besides, cracking their ECCM only leaves us knowing how they counter our ECM. It doesn't magically mean we can easily hit their planes, that would require some sort of magic bullet and having cracked Nod ECM.

3. Interestingly, as stated from existing battles, the QAAM is not the magic "I win" button you are hyping it up to be. Something also noted in that battle is that the Firehawks closed to engage in a gunfight, our doctrine likely revolves around our Firehawks dumping missiles at Nod aircraft then mopping up what's left with guns. Apollo doctrine is likely more "boom-and-zoom" given their design. So a turning battle is indeed part of our doctrine is some form.

I am aware of high offbore targeting yet standard doctrine is to dump the racks before closing to a gunfight, which means that by the time a pilot is thinking of running, that means that they aren't likely to have a missile left for lobbing behind them. Funnily enough though, those missiles like the Sidewinder are what our missiles evolved into. Before it was proven that we required the QAAM to be able to hit the Barghest.

4. It does say that. The Arkhangelsk battle proved that getting the drop on the Barghest-Bis is probably one of the few ways that the Firehawk is able to match it in combat, trading at a ratio of 5 Firehawks to 6 Barghests. The Firehawk is now entering the realm of being thoroughly outclassed in the air-superiority role by an aircraft designed specifically to defeat it in combat. It is in fact the case that whilst the Firehawk still serves very well in a close air-support role but is no longer up to fighting on the frontline in an air war. This is something that needs addressed before any big push into Nod territory. Never mind Karachi, which is sat firmly inside deep Nod territory where we will likely encounter a lot of Barghests in the air along with whatever other horrors are sat in India waiting for us. Then of course we have whatever the hell Varyag can pull off.

I know we'll be using Apollos for both targets but it would strip them from other areas which could let a quick nod air attack do a lot of damage somewhere we've just pulled Apollos from. Let's remember that the Vertigo has also gotten an upgrade.
 
If you could list the dice available in the Summary, that would be great. Makes it easy to see how much wiggle room we have where.


This is extremely concerning, and I don't think I've seen anyone comment on it.
There is no CCF Phase 5. No further HI Energy projects for 1-2 years.
So we need to seriously ration, or start considering alternative sources.
Such as: Tib Power, investing more in LCI, trying for Orbital Power Stations, or Tarberries.

I also notices that BZLIS is no longer there. So we have no cheap +Health option available now.

@Ithillid

And is it true that Blue Zone Light Industrial Sectors has been taken off the table permanently? If so, is that because of private industry filling the gaps in that sector? And if so, what happened to the +2 Health from the project- has private industry started producing the pharmaceuticals in question? Will we see any impact from that on our indicators?
 
[X] Plan Catching-Up The Military
[X] Plan Chimeraguard
[X] Plan Robots, Ace Combat, and Combine Harvesters
[X] Plan Industry and Deployment
[X] Plan Prep for Karachi 2061
 
@Ithillid

And is it true that Blue Zone Light Industrial Sectors has been taken off the table permanently? If so, is that because of private industry filling the gaps in that sector? And if so, what happened to the +2 Health from the project- has private industry started producing the pharmaceuticals in question? Will we see any impact from that on our indicators?
BZLIS was always intended as a Centrally Planned Toothbrushes project. Since private industry has been given that job, that project has gone away. As for the health option, that has gone away but will be replaced. You did not get new Health projects this turn because Welfare was having a bit of a reshuffle after the assassination of its secretary. In Q1, normal service will be resumed, and you will be seeing a new wave of welfare projects.
 
[X]Plan Robots, Ace Combat, and Combine Harvesters

Starting a war when our cap goods are at a TINY +5/+3 is inviting disaster in my opinion, NOD will know where much of our forces are and can fight a retreating battle in india while every other warlord launches their planned attack with the confidence that we can't send as much reinforcement as possible because we're already committed somewhere else. It doesn't matter much if they aren't completely ready to assault us since they should always be mostly ready. That with our caps good weakness also means only a few of them needs to achieve their objective so really put a wrench in our industry.
 
I vaguely recall the reason for inhibitors in the first place being that Tiberium was adapting to our vibration-based abatement devices and those would soon be rendered nearly ineffective. Is that still happening?
Until and unless we see any indication that our existing sonic abatement systems have a hard deadline, as opposed to a soft "become gradually less useful over time" deadline where we flat-out have, say, 20-30 abatement just vanish overnight...

There is no reason for us to build a more expensive project over a cheap one if they both mechanically offer, say, the same -2 abatement. I'm not saying the inhibitors are useless. Just that we don't have any obvious reason to prioritize them over other means of achieving the same goal (the annihilation of the hated green rock).

Chicago's remaining 2 phases would accomplish all of our processing goal and most of our abatement goal, with relatively little strain on Energy and even less on Logistics.
Yeah, but holy cheeseballs do they put a strain on our Infrastructure and Tiberium dice. Like, that's a LOT of resource extraction operations and housing construction and whatnot that we won't be able to do.

If it were just a matter of achieving abatement and processing targets, it would be SO much better and cheaper to use other projects to achieve the same goals.

We can just...not massively increase consumption with a huge invasion next turn? And it's not like our ground forces are bad, we can probably pull this off without too much trouble-as long as the conflict stays regional.
Aborting the plan to do Karachi in 2060Q1 is possible, in the sense that we could choose to not do it... but we'd be giving up a damn good opportunity.

The Barghest-A is, IIRC, *better* at air superiority than the Firehawk. Note how a wing of Firehawks boosted on top of a squadron of Barghests, and took 5 losses to down 6 Barghests, during the Arkhangelsk warm-up to St. Petersburg.
I agree. Everyone, note that "wing-to-squadron" ratio. There are several squadrons in a wing.

It's really bad news when you mob the enemy at roughly 3:1 or 4:1 odds, unleash a barrage of long range missiles that begin pecking away at them from ranges at which you cannot reply from your many many airframes, and they still manage to get in close and inflict roughly 1:1 casualty ratios on you before you take down the last of them.

And that is, as you and others note, with the previous version of the airframe.

So let's be real here, we can't rely on Firehawk spam to counter increasing deployment of the Barghest.
 
Hence my plan for a big air push now to let our factories spool up before karachi while giving us time to do also roll out lasers and drones with next plan being for the Logistics push.
 
[X] Plan Chimeraguard

[X] Plan Catching-Up The Military

Either these would work for me.
 
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Stop overselling the Barghest-B.

Its a significant improvement over the Barghest-A, and brings it much closer to matching the Firehawk in combat effectiveness. But that does not translate to combat equivalence or overmatch, since things other than airframe kinematics matter, including stuff like ECCM, which we cracked Nod's version a while back.

And that doesnt even include the missile itself. Unknown range, unknown maneuverability, unknown accuracy, unknown vulnerability to GDI ECM. From a Brotherhood that has not designed or built an air to air missile in at least three decades, versus GDI that has been operating said missiles for decades now. Short of an Act of Kane, I call bullshit on the idea that its some sort of equalizer.

You could give them blueprints of a GDI QAAM, and I'd have doubts about their ability to mass produce it sustainably.
Because thats not been their hat.

Thats inaccurate. Even in the ECM environment of Tiberium Earth, detection and engagement ranges of 20km are achievable on the ground, let alone in the air with the aid of both radar and EO/IR. By comparison, gun ranges are on the order of 2km.
We invented the QAAM to replace our notSidewinders for a reason.

Of course they want an edge; fair fights are for suckers.
But like I've pointed out, its not of sufficient concern to throw up a Firehawk upgrade on our priority list. That points at a significantly more dangerous threat, but not a paradigm shift.
This horse has been pretty well beaten already, but it gets on my nerves, so have a double tap.
First of all, you seem to be assuming Nod's AAMs are garbage, which is a dangerous assumption and very likely to be false. Nod has a long history of high quality SAMs, and sticking a SHORAD missile on a fighter is likely to be quite effective. See the Iranians sticking Standards on their Tomcats, or Sea Sparrow for an example of the inverse.
Second of all, we're being explicitly told by the military that they think the Barghest-bis is too hot a ride for the Firehawk to handle without some radical upgrade. Trying to gainsay them is likely to prove . . . Unwise.
Thirdly, they don't want a Firehawk upgrade of any sort. They want more Apollos. The military considers the Firehawk obsolete as an air superiority platform.
 
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But while Cherdenko was focused on destroying the first defensive line, the Kem air support screamed forth across the White Sea, burning boosters to greet the Nod in a hail of bombs and missiles. Additionally, an entire wing of Firehawks pushed past the scrum into Setigory, tangling into an interception squadron of Barghests. In a close ranged dogfight, five Firehawks fell in exchange of six of their oppositions before the battered interceptors broke off in tatters, giving the remaining Firehawks free reign to destroy the Setigory base.

This is the thing. The Firehawks had effectively all the advantages, and still lost more fighters than the Brotherhood did.
1. The Barghest is maneuverable. It can do things that no aircraft can do. Fifteen gravity turns, no problem.
2. The QAAM is short ranged. It can match ranges with the Rattlesnake (which itself is a Tiberium adapted version of the Sidewinder) But that is highly optimistic. With the kind of maneuvers needed to hit a Barghest that is trying not to be hit, you can't fire at longer ranges, because the missile will run out of energy and start falling.
3. The plasma cannons on the Barghest are lethal. Anything that they can draw a bead on, and they can pull PSM bullshit that would make Ace Combat players blush, more or less dies. Maybe two to three hits, if they are poorly placed.

So, with the Firehawks, either invest in comprehensive upgrade packages, or get enough Apollos to relegate them to the bomb truck role. And by comprehensive, it starts with things like Wingman drones, particle beams, modern lasers, and neurohelmets, among others.
 
So, with the Firehawks, either invest in comprehensive upgrade packages, or get enough Apollos to relegate them to the bomb truck role. And by comprehensive, it starts with things like Wingman drones, particle beams, modern lasers, and neurohelmets, among others.
And with that many upgrades, it starts to be questionable if it's actually worth putting all that tech into an old platform. It's certainly going to get some upgrades, but it seems incidental in the course of pursuing the next generation of tech instead of a deliberate push to refit the Firehawk.

Quick question for clarification, will the additional three Apollo factories be enough to replace the Firehawk in the air superiority role, or are those factories just the bare minimum the Air Force is looking at for now to get the ball rolling on that?
 
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