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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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Rakuhn said:
When we knock Krukov out of the running, we are going to see the following affects:
-The rest of NOD is going to unite now that they see that they are defeatible while divided (as opposed to waiting a few more years for Kane to come back)
-The rest of NOD will move from fighting for prestige, to fighting for survival
-We reduce NOD's internal factionalism
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Previous historical examples of GDI doing exactly this proves otherwise. GDI has killed warlords in the past and these listed things have not happened. There are few truly uniting factors in NOD the most notable of which is Kane, otherwise the amount of infighting is like Stargate SG-1 System lord levels with multiple starscreams.
 
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Ithillid said:
I already got convinced to make it somewhat possible. Two military dice and then you can spend as many tib dice as you want, so long as it is a single campaign.
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Does this mean spending two military dice and X Tiberium dice on any amount of Hub/MARV projects in a single turn, then the next turn we have to allocate the military dice again?
Or does 'campaign' mean we start with two military dice spent hubs and then go nuts for the next X turns with Tiberium dice as long as we don't stop?
 
HousePet said:
Does this mean spending two military dice and X Tiberium dice on any amount of Hub/MARV projects in a single turn, then the next turn we have to allocate the military dice again?
Or does 'campaign' mean we start with two military dice spent hubs and then go nuts for the next X turns with Tiberium dice as long as we don't stop?
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It means that you put two military dice and any amount of tib dice on a single MARV hub or fleet and you get spillover into others nearby.
 
Ithillid said:
It means that you put two military dice and any amount of tib dice on a single MARV hub or fleet and you get spillover into others nearby.
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Hrm. Okay, I guess that means we could drop 2 Mil + 1 Tib dice to aim to complete a 2 part RZ Hub area. Less painful for YZ as those have more Hubs.
More useful for SMARVS though, as they tend to need 3 dice each.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
Well first, nobody else is in a position to start snowballing to that position right now - they'd need a high-glory stunt like Krukov's to even get started. Part of this is to return the playing field to a bunch of mostly equal players who can't make big moves without watching their backs for the others.
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Nitpick: Bintang's probably a contender, what with having catapulted herself to the second place on Nod's very short "got shot with an ion cannon and lived to Nodstagram about it" list.

Ttw1 said:
[]Simon_Jester
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Ah, shit, now I'm gonna have to pick a plan to vote for. :p

uju32 said:
We were however lucky that the cheapass missiles suffered quality control issues at the factory or while loading them, so their accuracy was shit. Seriously, 1980s Scud missiles have two orders of magnitude better accuracy than a ten kilometer CEP.
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Nitpick:

The missiles didn't have a ten kilometer CEP. The roughly twenty missiles landed within a ten square kilometer area.

Assuming a circular error, the odds are that none of the missiles landed more than about two standard deviations off the target (since there were only twenty of them). To a rough order of magnitude approximation, we might thus conclude that the radius of the zone the missiles landed in is roughly double the CEP of the missiles (in that half the missiles landed within a distance equal to the CEP of the target).

A ten square kilometer circle... Well, divide by pi, r-squared of the circle is about 3.2. Take the square root of 3.2... About 1.8.

So, missiles landed up to 1.8 kilometers from the point of impact, roughly, one might say. As argued above, this suggests a CEP of roughly one kilometer, not ten kilometers.

It should also be noted that these were surface-skimming cruise missiles, not ballistic missiles, so they have a very different attack mode.

We have shaken loose multiple paradigm-changing techs from the Scrin pinata with battlefield salvage; you have to wonder what he has.
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Well, just for starters, it's safe to assume he has the seven actual TCN techs... Of which we have two and would have to get quite, quite lucky to roll the other five.

And in canon Tib War Four, he not only knew how to build the TCN, he knew how to build into it other, additional functions that benefited him, and that GDI didn't begin to understand.

Smacking Krukov now would feel nice, but we cant really follow up on it, yet.
So we wait. Just like we've waited everytime Mehretu has pulled one of his assassination ploys.
Delayed gratification might be a dirty phrase, but it applies here.
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The question is how, and in what ways we benefit, from smacking Krukov. If we smack Krukov by developing a useful new military capability for GDI, then that may open the path to doing other useful things in the future- such as using Aurora bombers to take out a Nod superweapon quickly and cleanly even if it is shielded against orbital fire.

Crazycryodude said:
I was skeptical about being able to rush Auroras from bar napkin to existing in sufficient numbers for a deep penetration raid into NOD territory.
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Remember, the Aurora is basically a bomber variant of an existing fighter. The design is almost certainly well beyond the bar napkin level; we don't see projects that consist of "a few guys hashing out the basic concept on a bar napkin."

We only see projects that reach the level where they need a commitment of tens of billions of dollars* and so have to come to us for funding. This is probably why we can get stuff to deployment in a matter of 3-4 quarters, because the prototypes already exist and they know what they need to do, it's just a matter of actually getting enough resources to start laying out a production line and build the beta-testing version on a large enough scale to work up operational doctrine, things like that.

Or that's my suspicion. That, or GDI has a hilarious fast prototyping and design cycle given some of the things we've already accomplished.
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*(remember, each R point probably represents billions of IRL dollars, given the likely size of GDI's overall economy).

I'd still prefer some Infra dice going into the ICS so we can start chipping away at that before we run down our logistics too far and have to do something less efficient but faster. Not enough to stop me from voting for it though, staying ahead of the curve on arcologies is fine too. Sure the immediate yelling has died down but if we want to keep people quiet we have to keep up the trend.
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...I am getting kind of tired of this because it's really biting into our ability to prepare for war by beefing up our Logistics system to handle wartime demands rather than the mostly-peacetime demands of the past eight years.

There comes a point at which we need to actually react to a military threat by altering the way the civilian economy prioritizes. Arcologies are not the sort of thing you prioritize on the eve of war, in my opinion.
 
[X] Plan Derpy Hitting Krukov With A Steel Chair Edition

Rakuhn said:
And fundamentally, I believe that reducing the total amount of evil requires that we focus our efforts on the worst of the worst. Get rid of Mehretu and Reynaldo, who deliberately kill medics, even if those medics are treating their own men. Get rid of the warlords that are assassinating anyone who tries to make peace with us.
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Complication.

The warlords killing medics tend also to be the 'guerilla/sabotage' focused warlords, who are going to be by far the toughest to break. It's relatively straightforward to cripple someone like Bintang or Krukov by striking at the industrial facilities that produce their weapons. Difficult if you can't easily find them, but straightforward.

Doing the same to someone like Mehretu is tougher.

So hammering on them to the point where they stop being a force to be reckoned with may not be feasible, at least without giving the other warlords a LOT more freedom of action than they now enjoy. Which is problematic given that, for instance, that Middle Eastern guy has a known predilection for nuking our military bases in the region. Or that Krukov is working on God knows what.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Remember, the Aurora is basically a bomber variant of an existing fighter. The design is almost certainly well beyond the bar napkin level; we don't see projects that consist of "a few guys hashing out the basic concept on a bar napkin."

We only see projects that reach the level where they need a commitment of tens of billions of dollars* and so have to come to us for funding. This is probably why we can get stuff to deployment in a matter of 3-4 quarters, because the prototypes already exist and they know what they need to do, it's just a matter of actually getting enough resources to start laying out a production line and build the beta-testing version on a large enough scale to work up operational doctrine, things like that.

Or that's my suspicion. That, or GDI has a hilarious fast prototyping and design cycle given some of the things we've already accomplished.
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This pretty much. You don't get to the point of doing the development until you are ready to start putting plasma cutter to steel.
Let me take the program that would lead to the M14. Winchester was doing research into early magazine fed Garand rifles in 1944, along with a number of other development programs. However, the Treasury would not be doing development work until 1953, where it is doing outlays for small batch production for the T44 and the T48 (alongside a handful of other proposed rifles). Now the development cycle is heavily shortened, because the M14 would not go to full production until 1959, but some of that is me keeping the bookkeeping simple.
 
Derpmind said:
It's not just my personal opinion. It's something routinely done in quests all over SV. Plans often are modified mid-vote to fix minor problems or oversights as discussion continues. And I know you disagree, but I personally see the switch from one Capital Goods project to another still similar one to be a minor fix, as one fits our general current goals better.
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Buddy. Not everyone has the time or energy to read every single post in the thread, nor does everyone keep up with the discussion after they've voted. If I hadn't had literally nothing better to do, I wouldn't have even known you'd switched the plan, and I definitely would have objected to the change initially.
 
[X] Plan Derpy

I'm bullet voting for Plan Derpy alongside my plan because it's the only plan with more than 20 votes that does Green Zone Teaching Colleges and I don't expect to be here late into the night to do this then in case my plan rises up in the meanwhile.

Alright reposting my plan here, please do keep in mind that MARVs being written as 5 Resources per Die more expensive than they are is the reason for the lack of full use of Resources:

Political‌ ‌Support:‌ 75
SCIENCE Meter: 4/4
Free‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌7
Housing:‌ +15 (23 Low Quality)
Energy:‌ +13 (+3 Reserve)
Logistics:‌ +7
Food:‌ +21 ‌(+8 Reserve)‌ ‌
Health:‌ +11 (3 Consumed) ‌
Capital‌ ‌Goods:‌ +3
Consumer‌ ‌Goods:‌ +34
Labor:‌ +30
Tiberium‌ ‌Processing‌ ‌Capacity‌ ‌(1670/2320)‌ ‌

Green ‌Zone‌:

Water:‌ +6
Abatement: 86

Red Zone:

Abatement: 67

Infrastructure: +26
Heavy Industry: +21
Light and Chemical Industry: +16
Agriculture: +16
Tiberium: +29
Orbital Industry: +16
Services: +21
Military: +18
Bureaucracy: +16

Security Reviews:
Agriculture 1 turn ago 2058 Q4
Light/Chem 2 turn ago 2058 Q3
Services 3 turns ago 2058 Q2
Orbital 5 turns ago 2057 Q4
Heavy Ind 6 turns ago 2057 Q3
Tiberium 7 turns ago 2057 Q2
Bureaucracy 8 turns ago 2057 Q1
Infrastructure 9 turns ago 2056 Q4
Military 12 turns ago 2056 Q1

[X] Plan Stocking the Piles 1.4:
Infrastructure 5/5 Dice 70 Resources
-[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 3) (Updated) 302/650 15 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 2 Die = 30 Resources
-[X] Communal Housing Experiments (New) 72/140 10 Resources per Die -5 PS on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Integrated Cargo System 0/800 15 Resources per Die -2 Lab - 2 E -2 CapG on Completion, 2 Die = 30 Resources
Heavy Industry 4/4 Dice 80 Resources
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3) 125/300 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
-[X] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 1) 0/160 20 Resources per Die -1 Lab on Completion, 2 Die = 40 Resources
Light and Chemical Industry 4/4 Dice 70 Resources
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner 4/320 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
-[X] Civilian Glider Development (New) 0/40 0/40 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
Agriculture 3/3 Dice 30 Resources
-[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 291/350 10 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 30 Resources
Tiberium 6/6 Dice 120 Resources -10 PS
-[X] Red Zone Containment Lines (Stage 5) 74/180 25 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 25 Resources
-[X] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 1) (New) 0/100 20 Resources per Die 1 Die per Turn -250 Processing Capacity if Incomplete, 1 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Railgun Harvester Factories (Updated) Maputo 0/70 10 Resources per Die -2 E -1 Lab on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations 0/200 20 Resources -5 PS per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources -10 PS
-[X] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development 0/40 25 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 25 Resources
Orbital 5/5 Dice + 5 Free Dice 200 Resources
-[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 5) 48/1425 20 Resources per Die, 10 Dice = 200 Resources
Services 4/4 Dice 45 Resources
-[X] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 149/200 5 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 5 Resources
-[X] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Domestic Animal Programs 0/200 10 Resources per Die -3 F on Completion, 2 Die = 20 Resources
Military 6/6 Dice + 2 Free Dice Edit: 110 Resources:
-[X] Reclamator Hub Red Zone 7-South 51/105 Edit: 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
-[X] Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 90/120 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Tube Artillery Deployment 184/200 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
-[X] Shell Plants (Phase 4) 3/300 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 2 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Naval Defense Laser Refits 270/330 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
-[X] Havoc Scout Mech Deployment (New) Brest 0/110 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Security Reviews Military 1 Die
Bureaucracy 3/3 Dice:
-[X] Security Reviews Military 3 Dice DC 50

70+80+70+30+120+200+45+110 = 725/740

So here is what this plan does:

- 2 Die on Blue Zone Arcologies to keep them rolling and get another Stage done next turn.
- 1 Die on Communal Housing Experiments to finish it off. 74% chance and a DC of 27.
- 2 Die on Integrated Cargo System to get started on that to patch one of our strategic weaknesses.

- 2 Die on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants for a 35% chance and an Average DC of 59 to complete Phase 3. We will need Phase 4 soon.
- 2 Die on Nuuk to get started on that. 49% chance and an Average DC of 52 to complete.

- 3 Dice on Reykjavik to continue hardening our Myomer supply. 2% chance and an Average DC of 85 to complete.
- 1 Die on Civilian Glider Development because we need something cheap and this is it. 92% chance and a DC of 9 to complete.

- 3 Dice on Perennial Aquaponics Bays to finish a Stage of it and roll over to the next which is a plan goal. 100% chance and an Average DC of 2 to complete Stage 2. Rollover is key to how much of Stage 3 we'll need to do next turn.

- 1 Die on Red Zone Containment Lines as we need those done for the long term goal of Tiberium Abatement. 39% chance and a DC of 62 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tiberium Processing Refits to get started on that since we can only use 1 Die. 45% chance and a DC of 56 to complete.
- 1 Die on Railgun Harvester Factory in Maputo for a 75% chance and a DC of 26 to complete. Because Africa is where the next Glacier Mines are.
- 2 Die on Offshore Tiberium Harvest Station to slow roll it. 28% chance and an Average DC of 69 to complete.
- 1 Die on Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development for a 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.

- 10 Dice on GDSS Philadelphia II to get Phase 5 Rolling and a 70% chance to finish it next turn.

- 1 Die on Green Zone Teacher's Colleges to get Litvinov her goals done. 86% chance and a DC of 15 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tissue Replacement Therapy Development for a 82% chance and a DC of 24 to complete and support Emergency Tiberium Infusion Deployment.
- 2 Die on Domestic Animal Programs since that is a Mental Health option, cheap and gives us PS. 17% chance and an Average DC of 72.

- 2 Die on Reclamator Hub Red Zone 7-South to finish it. Expect a lot of rollover. 99% chance and a DC of 2 to complete Red Zone 7-South.
- 1 Die on Pacifier Mobile Artillery Deployment to complete it. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tube Artillery Deployment to complete it. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.
- 2 Die on Shell Plants to get working on that again.
- 1 Die on Naval Defense Laser Refits for a 74% chance and a DC of 27 to complete.
- 1 Die on Havoc Deployment in Brest because that is closer to Russia for making a mess. 29% chance and a DC of 77 to complete.

- 1 Die from Military and 3 Dice from Bureaucracy to do Security Reviews Military. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete. DC is 50 for Security Reviews since Q4 2058. Yeah this turn we just completed was the first one with a DC of 50 on Security Reviews.

We have the following Strategic, Operational and Tactical Needs and Weaknesses:

- Our Strategic Needs are to keep the confidence level of all our military branches High and to have enough Resources per Turn to activate all Dice while gaining more Dice.

- Our Strategic Weaknesses currently are a lack of full new generation Tiberium processing (which we can mitigate by building new processing plants, but isn't going away until we do both the retrofit and the new generation of Tiberium storage/silos), not enough consumables (which can be fixed by building up ammo, ablat and sensor stockpiles) and not enough slack in our Logistics system for fighting a war (which we can fix by building up more Logistics projects).

- Our Operational Needs are a better distribution of personnel (civilian and military), a better defensive envelope around the Earth so NOD can't use the orbits against us (so the completion of the ASAT system and the installment of new armaments for it), rapid expansion of space infrastructure and Tiberium abatement in all environments (we are currently not doing enough to mine it out of Blue Zones, we are not cleaning the ocean floor, the Red Zones don't have complete containment lines and we are not doing enough in Glacier Mining).

- Our Operational Weaknesses currently are a lack of completed Railways in Blue and Green Zones for better direct population transfer, a lack of Integrated Cargo System for better ablation of Logistics during a war, a lack of Zone Armor so that ZOCOM isn't doing the job of the regular military and a lack of enough quality Housing for our population.

- Our Tactical Needs are better education for all (Litvinov is going to be really helpful with this), Labor pool expansions, Mental Health treatment actions, more options in Orbital Supremacy (Orbital Lasers, High Altitude Ion Cannons, Orbital Nuclear Stockpiles and Orbital Strike Regimental Team Combat Stations), deescalation of everyday life from the war footing and better preparation of our population for participation in military actions.

- Our Tactical Weaknesses currently are an insufficient amount of Yellow Zone Fortress Cities, lack of NOD anti-stealth deployment, lack of Orbital Lasers, the Himalayan (isolated, which can be fixed with a MARV Hub and Karachi), South African (too many eggs in one basket, can be mitigated with Reykjavik) and Arabian Blue Zones (ZOCOM HQ and the Blue Zone from which the Mecca complex is run, needs a MARV Hub and more Fortress Cities), Security Reviews (DC is still too high for 1 Die so we need Philadelphia II completed to be able to run two of them at the same time which will mitigate some problems), better local Food and Water supplies for the Green Zones and the lack of Plasma Shuttle Logistics which would enable better binding of the Blue Zones into a more coherent entity.
 
Manowl said:
-We demonstrate that we provide no consideration for following the rules of war (such as providing for POWs, or not targeting ambulances), thus encouraging the NOD warlords who were following them to abandon them. The same guys who use slave labour and other crimes against humanity All the time and you are saying they follow the rules they break all the time what? Like are you trying to say something else like or something what!??!
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The bolded is false. We do provide for POWs, and try not to target ambulances, and we also have a protocol for identifying ambulances in theaters of war where NOD is known to observe those rules of war*. And what evidence do you have that GDI does not react to breaches of the rules of war in a way that encourages NOD warlords to break them?

Also, who were you responding to with that message? It seems to come out of nowhere, and provide no evidence for your disruptive claims.
Edit: sorry, reread things, and saw that it was from Rakhun's post. Still, failing to actually quote it made it seem like it was from you.

*See this quote about the Zone Ambulances, from Q1 2058 results:
Ithillid said:
The units being shipped out come in three main varieties. The first is the full panel system. Emblazoned with local medical symbols (typically crosses or crescents, sometimes both) these are deployed to some of the safest regions, places like the Middle East or South America, where being recognized as a medical transport may not save the vehicle, but generally does save the passengers. The second variant is a plain blank one, used in places like North America, where medical symbolism offers no special protection against an attack. Finally there is a disguised option, built to look as much like another Zone Operations vehicle in order to avoid attack in places like Europe or Africa, where even looking like a medical vehicle invites attack.
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[X] Plan Derpy Hitting Krukov With A Steel Chair Edition

I know it hasn't quite caught up, but given this is almost in second place I'm switching off my approval vote for Plan Derpy.
 
[X] Plan Derpy
[X] Plan Derpy Hitting Krukov With A Steel Chair Edition

Altering my vote to add the Steel Chair Edition to it.

carterhall said:
How big a waste would it be to toss a die or two to complete the first stages of Columbia and Shala, so we can get some sweet PR and photos of the Philadelphia with all the other stations in the background?
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Um. Sorry if I missed you being answered, but the answer is - pretty big, in terms of dice.

With even one stage of one station built before Enterprise is maxed out, we lose somewhere around 320 progress, or 5-ish dice we could have otherwise saved. Building Stage 1 of Columbia and Shala is net loss of 640 progress.
 
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