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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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[] I need a Weapon.
-Infra - 5/5 Dice - 70R
--[] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 3) 302/650 4 dice 60R 33%
--[] Communal Housing Experiments 72/140 1 die 10R 74%

-HI - 4/4 Dice + 1 Dice/Free Dice - 75R
--[] Tokyo Chip Fabricator (Phase 1+2) 0/375 5 dice 75R 49%

-LCI - 4 Dice - 70R
--[] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 3) 4/320 3 dice 60R 28%
--[] Civilian Glider Development (New) 0/40 1 die 10R 92%

-Agri - 3 Dice - 40R
--[] Wadmalaw Kudzu Development 0/40 1 dice 20R 97%
--[] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 291/350 2 dice 20R 99%

-Tib - 6 Dice - 125R
--[] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 2) 20/200 2 dice 60R
--[] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations (New) 0/200 3 dice 60R 15PS 85%
--[] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development 0/40 1 die 25R 100%

-Orb - 5 Dice - 100R
--[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 5) 5 Dice 0%

-Services - 4 - 45R
--[] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 149/200 1 dice 5R 86%
--[] Early Prototype General Artificial Intelligence Development 0/120 2 dice 40R 87%
--[] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 1 dice 20R 82%

-Mil - 6 + 6 Dice/Free Dice - 145R
--[] Orca Refit Deployment 0/200 3 dice 45R 65%
--[] Tube Artillery Deployment 184/200 1 dice 15R 100%
--[] Naval Defense Laser Refits 270/330 1 die 15R 74%
--[] Escort Carrier Development 0/40 1 dice 15R 99%
--[] Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 90/120 1 dice 10R 100%
--[] Shell Plants (Phase 4) 3/300 1 dice 10R 0%
--[] Havoc Scout Mech Deployments (New) 0/110 2 dice 20R 89%
--[X] Shark Class Frigate Development 0/40 1 die 15R 99%
--[] Security Reviews - Mil 1 Dice

-Bureaucracy - 3 Dice
--[] Security Reviews: DC50 3 + 1 dice 99% - Military

670/740R - 0/0RR

Questionable plan is questionable, first off this is my first plan I ever made.... and it drove me insane. trust me.
Don't

Arcologies, just so we can be seen doing something.

Expermienting with "Communal Housing" College Housing is BS

Tokyo so I can maybe.... MAYBE help get Cap Goods back above the threshold of "Stop making me have anxiety attacks plox"

Reyk for redundancy and Gliders for the civvies so they can creatively Accident themselves

Kudzu for the COFFEE and Aquaponics for the Foodstuffs and other things.

Starting Batch 2 of Processing Plants for contract... god I hate my job. Improved Containment for reasons unknown, MAGIC. and Offshore Harvesting. cuz... welll **** the politicians.

Philly II, as a Countinual F you too Nod.

Tissue replacement for possible longer health if tiberium contact occurs on skin.

Proto-AI cuz why not have ANOTHER LEGION issue... cuz reasons.

Also Teachers. cuz we need them.

Orcas to FINALLY stop listening to the Air Force whinge my electronic ear off... every minute and second.

Artillery refits and replacements to get the Arty Boys off the list of "We will shoot our stocks of old shells at your office if ya don't get rid of this shit" end quote... there. quit emailing me daily lol.

Navy gets the shinies finally cuz of the last engagement being a massive fustercluck of epic proportions and I am starting to get emails from Politicians about why missiles rained down on Manchester.

Carriers are getting Green Lit for development and later deployment ASAP after the above SNAFU, so that more Naval forces are properly escorting without having to worry about shoddy maintenance from being run ragged

Frigates so our Cruiser, Battleships and Fleet Carriers aren't being eaten by excessive and massive amounts of convoy escort missions which isn't their exact mission spec. its Escort Carriers and Frigates

Pacifier Deployment is getting done, ASAP, so ZOCOM has their new toy.

Shell Plants are being green lit on the down low, for a small amount, next fiscal quarter is the major upgrade, right now we just don't have the appropriate pool of resources to fully greenlight it without going and crashing something else.

Havoc "Scout" Mech is being Deployed/starting deployment, but Steel Talons will finally begin getting the next batch of new Walkers over the next yearish.
 
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[X] Plan Chimeraguard

Not that I don't like Derpy but a few minor points I like Chimera's better on. Most pressingly I think the Blue Zone Heavy Industrial Sectors should be our next cap goods project so we can get the wartime factory refits up ASAP even if it's not the most cap goods efficient path in the long run. Having the factories up to spec and the extra die or two chugging away a turn or two earlier could be the difference between having that done before vs. after zero hour.
 
Hmm, what do people think of me swapping out Containment Lines for Processing Refits? It would be nice to get that done earlier rather than later, and it's something we can only put 1 die on per turn.
 
Fair. Though... come to think of it, I've got enough resources in the bank that I could trade out a Railgun Harvester for the Refits instead.

EDIT: Actually yeah, I think I'll make that swapping out of the Vladivostok Railgun Harvesters in exchange for a Refit die. I still have another Railgun Harvester factory being made in Maputo (the closest one to Jeddah AFAIK.)
 
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So with the rationalize yellow zones option, does that mean adding more zone classifications also?

Like I could see that if the green zone is the yellow zone close to the blue zone, orange would be the flux between red and yellow zones.
 
Reminder to the thread that a full push on Philly 2 will net us an average of 674 progress a turn. 2696 progress a year. 10784 progress a plan. Every turn it's not completed, that's nine dice and a +4 bonus to every diceroll down the drain. Consider that when you're choosing your plan.
 
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Posting plan for @BOTcommander , who may be napping.

[X]Plan I want Philly
Infrastructure 5 Dice 105R
-[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 3) 3 Dice 45R
-[X] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 1) 2D 60R
Heavy Industry 4 dice 80R
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3) 4 Dice 80R
LCI 4 Dice 80R
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 3) 4 Dice 80 Resources
Agriculture 3 Dice 45R
-[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 1 Die 10R
-[X] Wadmalaw Kudzu Development 1 Die 20R
-[X] Vertical Farming Projects (Stage 2) 1 Die 15R
Orbital 5+7 dice 240R
-[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 5) 12 Dice 240R
Tiberium 6 Dice 75R
-[X] Railgun Harvester Factories
--[X] Porto 1 Die 10R
--[X] Vladivostok 1 Die 10R
--[X] Bissau 1 Die 10R
--[X] Maputo 1 Die 10R
--[X] Dandong 1 Die 10R
-[X] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development 1 Die 25R
Services 2 dice 40R
-[X] Advanced Electronic Video Assistant Development 1 Die 20R
-[X] Early Prototype General Artificial Intelligence Development 1D 20R
Military 6 dice 70R
-[X] Tube Artillery Deployment 1D 15R
-[X] Orbital Defense Laser Development 1D 20R
-[X] Naval Defense Laser Refits 1D 15R
-[X] Havoc Scout Mech Deployment
--[X] Brest 1D 10R
--[X] Seoul 1D 10R
-[X]Security Review 1D
Bureaucracy 3D
-[X]Security Review (Military) 1D 3D
Total: 735R

Edit: checked and fixed costs.
 
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Zavvnao said:
So with the rationalize yellow zones option, does that mean adding more zone classifications also?

Like I could see that if the green zone is the yellow zone close to the blue zone, orange would be the flux between red and yellow zones.
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Green Zone is Yellow Zone under GDI control, which means it's mostly the Yellow Zone bordering Blue Zone. It's a political designation rather than an environmental one like the difference between Red and Yellow. We don't meaningfully control large parts of the Yellow/Red border beyond scattered harvesting outposts, so there's no reason or need for an 'Orange' designation.
 
uju32 said:
And I really want to futureproof the design, because carriers take time to build, and Im positive that if we lose a bunch of fleet carriers, its the escorts that are going to be pressed into service to fill the gap.
Plus wingman drones make them better at their primary role of ASW/convoy protection.
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I want to clarify that wingmans will not provide any bonuses to ASW/escort duties, per word of QM (on discord).

Now, leaving hard facts behind and entering the realm of subjective opinions; While wingman drones will allow our escort carriers to meaningfully participate in strike missions, it will also increase their size (again, word of QM, EDIT: Which you quoted) and therefore almost certainly raise costs of shipyards and reduce numbers we can field.

Combined with the fact that we have several fleet carriers being build right now, I expect that when loss of fleet carrier becomes a reasonable statistical possibility (rather than extreme outlier) we will have replacement nearly ready if not actually in service. I do not feel that surcharge of dead weight on escort carrier and our shipyards is worth the fairly low possibility of that being wrong.
 
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Jexx said:
I want to clarify that wingmans will not provide any bonuses to ASW/escort duties, per word of QM (on discord).

Now, leaving hard facts behind and entering the realm of subjective opinions; While wingman drones will allow our escort carriers to meaningfully participate in strike missions, it will also increase their size (again, word of QM) and therefore almost certainly raise costs of shipyards and reduce numbers we can field.

Combined with the fact that we have several fleet carriers being build right now, I expect that when loss of fleet carrier becomes a reasonable statistical possibility rather than extreme outlier we will have replacement nearly ready if not actually in service. I do not feel that surcharge of dead weight on escort carrier and our shipyards is worth the fairly low possibility of that being wrong.
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I think our preferred plan is "don't lose a bunch of fleet carriers all at once", instead of "build more expensive escort carriers, which means having fewer escort carriers".

If the drones don't provide bonuses to ASW or convoy duty, then I don't see the point.
 
Edit:

Ithillid said:
Note for the planmakers, MARVs should be 20 rpd, not 25. That was a mistake that I made because I used a number from before a general recosting.
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The reason for this edit. ☝️

Alright here is my plan for this turn:

Political‌ ‌Support:‌ 75
SCIENCE Meter: 4/4
Free‌ ‌Dice:‌ ‌7
Housing:‌ +15 (23 Low Quality)
Energy:‌ +13 (+3 Reserve)
Logistics:‌ +7
Food:‌ +21 ‌(+8 Reserve)‌ ‌
Health:‌ +11 (3 Consumed) ‌
Capital‌ ‌Goods:‌ +3
Consumer‌ ‌Goods:‌ +34
Labor:‌ +30
Tiberium‌ ‌Processing‌ ‌Capacity‌ ‌(1670/2320)‌ ‌

Green ‌Zone‌:

Water:‌ +6
Abatement: 86

Red Zone:

Abatement: 67

Infrastructure: +26
Heavy Industry: +21
Light and Chemical Industry: +16
Agriculture: +16
Tiberium: +29
Orbital Industry: +16
Services: +21
Military: +18
Bureaucracy: +16

Security Reviews:
Agriculture 1 turn ago 2058 Q4
Light/Chem 2 turn ago 2058 Q3
Services 3 turns ago 2058 Q2
Orbital 5 turns ago 2057 Q4
Heavy Ind 6 turns ago 2057 Q3
Tiberium 7 turns ago 2057 Q2
Bureaucracy 8 turns ago 2057 Q1
Infrastructure 9 turns ago 2056 Q4
Military 12 turns ago 2056 Q1

[X] Plan Stocking the Piles 1.4:
Infrastructure 5/5 Dice 70 Resources
-[X] Blue Zone Arcologies (Stage 3) (Updated) 302/650 15 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 2 Die = 30 Resources
-[X] Communal Housing Experiments (New) 72/140 10 Resources per Die -5 PS on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Integrated Cargo System 0/800 15 Resources per Die -2 Lab - 2 E -2 CapG on Completion, 2 Die = 30 Resources
Heavy Industry 4/4 Dice 80 Resources
-[X] Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 3) 125/300 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
-[X] Nuuk Heavy Robotics Foundry (Phase 1) 0/160 20 Resources per Die -1 Lab on Completion, 2 Die = 40 Resources
Light and Chemical Industry 4/4 Dice 70 Resources
-[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner 4/320 20 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 60 Resources
-[X] Civilian Glider Development (New) 0/40 0/40 10 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 10 Resources
Agriculture 3/3 Dice 30 Resources
-[X] Perennial Aquaponics Bays (Stage 2) 291/350 10 Resources per Die, 3 Dice = 30 Resources
Tiberium 6/6 Dice 120 Resources -10 PS
-[X] Red Zone Containment Lines (Stage 5) 74/180 25 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 25 Resources
-[X] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 1) (New) 0/100 20 Resources per Die 1 Die per Turn -250 Processing Capacity if Incomplete, 1 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Railgun Harvester Factories (Updated) Maputo 0/70 10 Resources per Die -2 E -1 Lab on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations 0/200 20 Resources -5 PS per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources -10 PS
-[X] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development 0/40 25 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 25 Resources
Orbital 5/5 Dice + 5 Free Dice 200 Resources
-[X] GDSS Philadelphia II (Phase 5) 48/1425 20 Resources per Die, 10 Dice = 200 Resources
Services 4/4 Dice 45 Resources
-[X] Green Zone Teacher Colleges 149/200 5 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 5 Resources
-[X] Tissue Replacement Therapy Development 0/60 20 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Domestic Animal Programs 0/200 10 Resources per Die -3 F on Completion, 2 Die = 20 Resources
Military 6/6 Dice + 2 Free Dice Edit: 110 Resources:
-[X] Reclamator Hub Red Zone 7-South 51/105 Edit: 20 Resources per Die, 2 Die = 40 Resources
-[X] Pacifier Mobile Artillery Vehicle Deployment 90/120 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Tube Artillery Deployment 184/200 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
-[X] Shell Plants (Phase 4) 3/300 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 2 Die = 20 Resources
-[X] Naval Defense Laser Refits 270/330 15 Resources per Die, 1 Die = 15 Resources
-[X] Havoc Scout Mech Deployment (New) Brest 0/110 10 Resources per Die -2 E on Completion, 1 Die = 10 Resources
-[X] Security Reviews Military 1 Die
Bureaucracy 3/3 Dice:
-[X] Security Reviews Military 3 Dice DC 50

70+80+70+30+120+200+45+110 = 725/740

So here is what this plan does:

- 2 Die on Blue Zone Arcologies to keep them rolling and get another Stage done next turn.
- 1 Die on Communal Housing Experiments to finish it off. 74% chance and a DC of 27.
- 2 Die on Integrated Cargo System to get started on that to patch one of our strategic weaknesses.

- 2 Die on Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants for a 35% chance and an Average DC of 59 to complete Phase 3. We will need Phase 4 soon.
- 2 Die on Nuuk to get started on that. 49% chance and an Average DC of 52 to complete.

- 3 Dice on Reykjavik to continue hardening our Myomer supply. 2% chance and an Average DC of 85 to complete.
- 1 Die on Civilian Glider Development because we need something cheap and this is it. 92% chance and a DC of 9 to complete.

- 3 Dice on Perennial Aquaponics Bays to finish a Stage of it and roll over to the next which is a plan goal. 100% chance and an Average DC of 2 to complete Stage 2. Rollover is key to how much of Stage 3 we'll need to do next turn.

- 1 Die on Red Zone Containment Lines as we need those done for the long term goal of Tiberium Abatement. 39% chance and a DC of 62 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tiberium Processing Refits to get started on that since we can only use 1 Die. 45% chance and a DC of 56 to complete.
- 1 Die on Railgun Harvester Factory in Maputo for a 75% chance and a DC of 26 to complete. Because Africa is where the next Glacier Mines are.
- 2 Die on Offshore Tiberium Harvest Station to slow roll it. 28% chance and an Average DC of 69 to complete.
- 1 Die on Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Development for a 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.

- 10 Dice on GDSS Philadelphia II to get Phase 5 Rolling and a 70% chance to finish it next turn.

- 1 Die on Green Zone Teacher's Colleges to get Litvinov her goals done. 86% chance and a DC of 15 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tissue Replacement Therapy Development for a 82% chance and a DC of 24 to complete and support Emergency Tiberium Infusion Deployment.
- 2 Die on Domestic Animal Programs since that is a Mental Health option, cheap and gives us PS. 17% chance and an Average DC of 72.

- 2 Die on Reclamator Hub Red Zone 7-South to finish it. Expect a lot of rollover. 99% chance and a DC of 2 to complete Red Zone 7-South.
- 1 Die on Pacifier Mobile Artillery Deployment to complete it. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.
- 1 Die on Tube Artillery Deployment to complete it. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete.
- 2 Die on Shell Plants to get working on that again.
- 1 Die on Naval Defense Laser Refits for a 74% chance and a DC of 27 to complete.
- 1 Die on Havoc Deployment in Brest because that is closer to Russia for making a mess. 29% chance and a DC of 77 to complete.

- 1 Die from Military and 3 Dice from Bureaucracy to do Security Reviews Military. 100% chance and a DC of 2 to complete. DC is 50 for Security Reviews since Q4 2058. Yeah this turn we just completed was the first one with a DC of 50 on Security Reviews.

We have the following Strategic, Operational and Tactical Needs and Weaknesses:

- Our Strategic Needs are to keep the confidence level of all our military branches High and to have enough Resources per Turn to activate all Dice while gaining more Dice.

- Our Strategic Weaknesses currently are a lack of full new generation Tiberium processing (which we can mitigate by building new processing plants, but isn't going away until we do both the retrofit and the new generation of Tiberium storage/silos), not enough consumables (which can be fixed by building up ammo, ablat and sensor stockpiles) and not enough slack in our Logistics system for fighting a war (which we can fix by building up more Logistics projects).

- Our Operational Needs are a better distribution of personnel (civilian and military), a better defensive envelope around the Earth so NOD can't use the orbits against us (so the completion of the ASAT system and the installment of new armaments for it), rapid expansion of space infrastructure and Tiberium abatement in all environments (we are currently not doing enough to mine it out of Blue Zones, we are not cleaning the ocean floor, the Red Zones don't have complete containment lines and we are not doing enough in Glacier Mining).

- Our Operational Weaknesses currently are a lack of completed Railways in Blue and Green Zones for better direct population transfer, a lack of Integrated Cargo System for better ablation of Logistics during a war, a lack of Zone Armor so that ZOCOM isn't doing the job of the regular military and a lack of enough quality Housing for our population.

- Our Tactical Needs are better education for all (Litvinov is going to be really helpful with this), Labor pool expansions, Mental Health treatment actions, more options in Orbital Supremacy (Orbital Lasers, High Altitude Ion Cannons, Orbital Nuclear Stockpiles and Orbital Strike Regimental Team Combat Stations), deescalation of everyday life from the war footing and better preparation of our population for participation in military actions.

- Our Tactical Weaknesses currently are an insufficient amount of Yellow Zone Fortress Cities, lack of NOD anti-stealth deployment, lack of Orbital Lasers, the Himalayan (isolated, which can be fixed with a MARV Hub and Karachi), South African (too many eggs in one basket, can be mitigated with Reykjavik) and Arabian Blue Zones (ZOCOM HQ and the Blue Zone from which the Mecca complex is run, needs a MARV Hub and more Fortress Cities), Security Reviews (DC is still too high for 1 Die so we need Philadelphia II completed to be able to run two of them at the same time which will mitigate some problems), better local Food and Water supplies for the Green Zones and the lack of Plasma Shuttle Logistics which would enable better binding of the Blue Zones into a more coherent entity.
 
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There are plans doing Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 1) but I think that is not worth it
If you look at the two options you see refits give 1/12 of the processing of new plants so to compare the two i compare the cost of 12 phases of refit with one of new plants:
[ ] Tiberium Processing Plants (Stage 2) (Updated)
While currently additional processing plants are not an immediately pressing need, they will be a requirement to fulfill plan goals, and will further harden the Initiative's refining capacity.
(Progress 20/200: 30 resources per die) (+600 processing potential) (-4 Energy, -3 Logistics)


[ ] Tiberium Processing Refits (Phase 1) (New)
By offlining and rebuilding existing processing plants, and refitting them to more modern means, GDI can manage to be efficient with both its energy and logistics capacity. The biggest difficulty will actually be managing the rate of refits, as GDI does not, at this time, have the capacity to offline large sections of its total plant. (No more than 1 die per turn)
(Progress 0/100: 20 resources per die) (+50 processing capacity [-250 during refits])

Are the two options for processing
new plants:
(Progress 20/200: 30 resources per die) (+600 processing potential) (-4 Energy, -3 Logistics)
Refits:
(Progress 0/100: 20 resources per die) (+50 processing capacity [-250 during refits]) x12 =
(Progress 0/1200: 20 resources per die) (+600 processing capacity [-250 during refits])

Doing refits for processing will take 6x the progress and 4x the resources than doing new plants.
For the difference in price, we can easily get the (-4 Energy, -3 Logistics) new plants will cost and we have the old plants in reserve in case of sabotage.

We also have a plan goal to get Processing: 480 points and with 1300 processing in old plants we can't get there with just refits(those give 260 at most as the refits give +20%) so we need to do new plants anyway later this plan.
The later in the plan we do income increasing actions the fewer turns we get the income from them before reallocation so it is better to do +income first and the refits later if we do them at all and not at this time.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The problem is that the big shining space capital has a material impact on our ability to bulk up the military, what with the extra Military dice and the +4 bonus per die on every Military project. There's a fair chance that those bonuses will equate to finishing an extra Military project every 1-2 turns as soon as the Philadelphia is ready.

Even in the medium term of the next 1-2 years, we may honestly be better off getting the Philadelphia completed a turn sooner than having 1-2 extra dice spent on shell plants.

The thing isn't just a purely optional jewel in the crown; it's the command, control, and coordination hub for GDI as a whole. Having it be fully functional and operational during a war is an asset in its own right.

Making matters more complicated, the choice isn't as simple as "finish the Philadelphia" or "build shell factories at all." It's "how many Free dice do we spend on each?"

So quite frankly, I'm concerned here that you're taking the biggest worst-case scenario in which speculative and extreme consequences of 'less dice on shells' happen, and matching it against a case that ignores any possible rewards of other projects.

Comparing "insufficient shells, our ground forces are totally overrun all over the Green Zones" against "we have a useless fucking space palace" sure does make it sound like we should be throwing all our Free dice at Shell Plants and nothing else matters... But it's not a very accurate or honest way to portray the situation.
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And the sooner the shell production is up, the larger a stockpile we have to draw upon. Having it fully functional and operational before the war is an asset in it's own right.

And my argument is simple- every single Free Dice we can afford should be going into the military. Not 'every single die we can afford without political compromise or compromise elsewhere, every single free die we can afford should be improving the military or supporting improvements'.

It's also a target of increasing value that places ever more of our eggs into a basket when we're still not fully updated on our orbital defenses.

The fact you think my argument was really as narrow as 'we need shells or we lose' just proves my fears are founded. You are not taking the impending war seriously. We are going to lose massive amounts of infrastructure, lives, and material in a best case scenario. So our goal should be to fight our damndest to see that we face a best case scenario. That means shells, that means getting as many people out of our Green Zones as we can, it means super Orcas and Escort carriers sooner than later, it means we have to examine everything not with the lens of the plan or political optics, but in terms of facing one of if not the largest war in human history. Philadelphia isn't just competing with shells, it's competing with every single hatch we need to batten down to ride out the impending storm. Orbital defense lasers. Orbital nuclear caches. Zone Armor factories. Increased missile production. The works. We are on a time crunch and it's not 3 years away. It's seemingly 2. And it's not a political evaluation or a self-examination to see if we were efficient as we reasonably could be in grabbing that all important bonus dice- it's a desperate sprint to see how many more lives we can save.

And in the wake of the war, people are really going to examine the government. I think they're going to be far more critical of expenditures on Philadelphia than they will of military spending and the hardening of infrastructure. I think your assumption it's going to centralize and improve coordination of the global war effort is optimistic since we already have a robust and thorough comm network that explicitly no long depends on routing through Enterprise or Philadelphia for coverage.

Simon_Jester said:
I'm not saying none of our forces will lose battles for lack of shells in a major war if we complete no phases of Shell Plants.

I'm saying that worldwide military collapse all along the front is not a realistic consequence. GDI fought through Tib War III with no artillery whatsoever beyond a scattering of Juggernaut walkers (which it still has) and mortars in the Pitbulls (likewise), and managed to more than hold its own. Nod's upgraded since those days, but then, so have we.

We very much need those shell plants, but we have a very wide array of options and weapons that do, on a basic level, function even with reduced/limited artillery support. Our forces will not be rendered helpless if the shells run out; they do not rely nearly as heavily on artillery as do, say, WWI-era infantry formations.

My objection is not to you or anyone saying "we need shells dammit" or "shells are more important than the Philadelphia dammit."

But it's neither accurate nor honest to talk as if the entire outcome of the global war is predictably likely to come down to our shell plant expansions, and only that single project, ignoring all other factors.
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And you are taking out of context the simple fact I'm arguing that the issue isn't just shells or not- it's the priorities of the plans. The weapons of mass destruction NOD has access to have only increased, the desperation of NOD has only increased, the necessity of NOD to knock GDI down some pegs has increased. We don't need shells or not- we need to try and cover every single basis we can- so that when NOD hits us, we lose as little as possible. That means Arcologies because they're the most defensible. That means improved naval spending so nuclear subs have a harder time glassing our ecologies. This means increased lasers in orbit to intercept something like a Liquid Tiberium bomb (it's not like Kane's had years to improve his last one, and GDI explicitly developed the means to weaponize LT without Ion cannon strikes- I'd be surprised if he couldn't).

I don't think the war will be decided by how many shells we can fling? The death toll and the destruction? Absolutely. The key beneficiaries of artillery are the fortresses designed to keep the fighting away from our highly urban interior. The more fortresses that fall, and the less toll they exact on NOD- the more fighting we have to do in regions we don't want to fight in. And if the last 3 wars we've fought are any indication, we'll have to endure a global offensive before we can counterattack.

This is not a binary thing where we either lose the Green Zones or we don't. We don't build the shell factories and win, or not build them and lose- it's a matter of how much we're set back. And I firmly think having the military outlook of the impending war as our number one concern is the best possible way to be set back as little as possible. Economically, in terms of our dwindling population we can't recover, political in the post war evaluations, and ecologically in our capacity to protect abatement.

Shell factories should be a must, around which the remaining resources are planned with, not because it's some panacea for all our ills- but because every military step we can do to preserve GDI must be considered a must. Ask our military which they'd rather have for TW4- Philadelphia stage 5, or solid shell logistics and god knows what else we could afford.
Derpmind said:
We could throw away our plan commitments for the short-term advantage of a couple extra military projects, sure. But what happens if the war doesn't start for another year? We'll be worse off than we could be for not completing the Philadelphia, what with its role as the center of GDI government and military leadership. In two years, we'd be massively behind where we could have been. (And the politicians can fire and replace us, too.)

GDI's conflict with NOD is a long war, one where we're constantly competing for the best economic and technological base to support our war machines. Every turn might be the last before the next war. But that doesn't mean we should be sinking everything we have into Military projects all the time. It means we need to constantly be building up our military and the industrial base that supports them. The Philadelphia's is just one of numerous projects that we do behind the military that ultimately helps it become stronger. Throwing it away will hurt us much more than the extra few free dice would help.

Besides, the singular most impactful project we could do for the next war isn't Shell Plants. It's the Wartime Factory Refits. But that costs 8 Capital Goods. If we had confirmation that war was in two or three turns, (instead of our current "about two years",) we wouldn't be dumping free dice into Military projects but into Heavy Industry ones instead.
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My response is a single question. Do you think NOD can win TW5? Full triumph over GDI, us at best left crippled or reeling? I don't. Not with increasingly popular appeal, advancing abatement, the space presence, the Venusian tiberium, the technological developments? It seems unlikely to say the least. If I can tell that, and you can possibly see the value in such an assessment- why can't Kane? Why can't the Brotherhood decide that this is their War to End all Wars? And what happens if they decide that means Pandora's Box should be thrown wide open.

I don't give a shit if we're fired and replaced- and I think it's almost OOC to in the face of the impending destruction, and I think the 'massively behind where we could have been' is overstated. And this is ignoring the fact you are deliberately ignoring ZOCOM's military assessment in favor of a nice and tidy bureaucratic assessment where NOD doesn't kick off the war until the plan is over. It presumes any experienced advice is misguided and our enemies will be as polite and convenient as human possible given the circumstances. Why on earth would we plan based on that assumption?

You are discarding the worst case scenario- that ZOCOM was optimistic, in favor of optimizing for the best case scenario. The problem with that sort of reasoning should be evident. I'm not against building up capital goods, I'm not even against Philadelphia if it's objectively the right call for the impending war and not based on the absolute most favorable scenarios. I'm against the logic that 'we could be set back if we militarize too early', 'we could be fired', 'if we have three years this plan will work well'. WW2 killed 70+million people. We are liable to have 1/20 people on Earth right now die in the impending war, more if NOD's back is as up against the wall as it seems to be. I take cold comfort in the notion that building a space station to coordinate the war effort is universally agreed upon, but we literally just saw that NOD submarines successfully launch a missile strike on a population center.

I see plans who saw the same thing I read, and think 'half our free dice on Philly'- nevermind the fact that if I were to bet, I'm pretty positive we just saw a test run for a nuclear or LT strike. So much is at stake here that I'm immensely worried at a trend to look at statistical optimization here as the end all be all. And that's what Philadelphia is about from both an IC and OOC perspective.

Edit: I'm deeply afraid of how much this war is going to cost us. And I don't think that fear is wrong, and I think it ought be acknowledged. I think we're going to lose entire Zones tbh. Not when we just saw a successful missile strike, not when Bintang has been arguably the most successful warlord. Not when it doesn't look like NOD will get another chance after this.
 
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@Karugus for me Philadelphia II is the better option. If we complete it in 2 turns we get a lot more Dice to use and better use out of both our Military Dice and our Free Dice. We get to build more for less quite literally. My plan also does 2 Dice on Shell Plants now and I will aim for at least 90% completion on the next Phase of Shell Plants so they are done at the same time as Philadelphia II.
 
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