Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

Simon_Jester said:

To be clear, when I say "amazing discovery on Mars," I mean "some kind of extraordinarily valuable minerals" or something, not like... space archaeology, cool as that would be. The point being that because the Moon is much closer to Earth and has much lower delta-V requirements for launch from its surface, it's a lot more likely to be a good source of raw materials in the short run.

Although realistically even if we did have people on Mars, a few hundred people can't exactly scout a whole planet. Mars isn't a location or a region; it's a land surface roughly equal to the combined area of all Earth's continents. If we DID find anything shortly after landing on Mars, it's either by hilarious luck or because the explorers specifically went to a site because a robotic probe had already flagged it as interesting.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Oh absolutely and both Hell and the Shadows ship were found by accident by ground teams. The Prothean Archive was found after a satellite picked up unusual power readings if memory serves. We already have satellites that can do that, going by the ability in C&C 3 that allows you to scan for the power signatures of enemy buildings. Given the plan seems to currently be for an ME based sequel we may find it but it'll be like the other research projects where we roll a handful of techs.

[X] Plan Capitally Urgent, Funds for Steel Talons, Get Your First Shots, Cleanup on Aisle LEO

Alo357 said:

Oh absolutely and both Hell and the Shadows ship were found by accident by ground teams. The Prothean Archive was found after a satellite picked up unusual power readings if memory serves. We already have satellites that can do that, going by the ability in C&C 3 that allows you to scan for the power signatures of enemy buildings. Given the plan seems to currently be for an ME based sequel we may find it but it'll be like the other research projects where we roll a handful of techs.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It will be, just with a constant flow of techs, and a much, much much larger tech pool.

Ithillid said:

It will be, just with a constant flow of techs, and a much, much much larger tech pool.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I take it the sooner we get working on this the more advanced we'll be by the sequel?

Ithillid said:

What the Military really wants is for you to pick a pathway. Either load up on MARVS and pick that as your pathway forward, or actually load up on funding and do things that are not MARVS. With where you have been putting them, MARVs are militarily pretty neutral. On one hand, they are problematic for NOD to operate around, on the other they do require a commitment of forces to protect the base and the MARVs. Overall, it pretty much balances out, at lest in most of the Yellow and Red Zones. What the Military really does not want is for you to end up heavily funding MARVs, and loading up on Red and Yellow Zone conventional commitments.

Edit: Basically to put this in dice terms, they would be happy with either
A: 4ish dice of general military stuff + as many dice as you want of MARVs and no or limited expansion of operations.
B: 7-10 dice of general military stuff, and general expansion into the Yellow and Red Zones.

What they don't want is
4-5 dice of general military stuff and general expansion into the Yellow and Red Zones.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

For planned cities as long as we surround them with MARVs does that count under the 4ish dice option? Also stuff like the tiberium vein would not take additional mil support while also providing crucial mitigation and income.

Also can we have an indication if we build up enough of a military surplus (by say doing 6 dice non marv, and some dice marv for several turns) to undertake one of the tib projects such as RZ containment. For that matter for the following projects how many phases do they have left:
Yellow Zone Tiberium Harvesting (Phase 4)
Intensification of Yellow Zone Harvesting (Phase 5)
Red Zone Containment Lines (Phase 3)

Because how much total mit we can get down each path will play a roll in which way we invest mil dice.

Ithillid said:

A: 4ish dice of general military stuff + as many dice as you want of MARVs and no or limited expansion of operations.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Ah. And given that we very much don't want "no or limited expansion of operations", (unless we're temporarily forced to,) this isn't an option we want to do.

Lightwhispers said:

I'm just hoping we don't find any spider-shaped ships buried under Syria Planum. Because that would be cause for *external screaming*. And then deployment of a cluster of Ion Cannon satellites to cover that area.

(Granted, the idea of Kane as an agent of the Shadows does make way too much sense.)

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Nono. Kane's not an agent of the Shadows.

He an agent of *REDACTED*.

Alo357 said:

I take it the sooner we get working on this the more advanced we'll be by the sequel?

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Not really. You can get there a few years earlier, but you won't get more than maybe 10-15 more rolls on the chart maximum.

If we want to find the archives early, we have to go ahead and do more space, especially stuff on Mars.

I'm kinda skeptical of a ME sequel. There's realistically a colossal population discrepancy between us and any major player, but the tech imbalance gets real real fast. Either we accept the Scrin are ridiculously advanced and out of context and we're getting to pick over and reverse engineer some really nice toys, or things like stasis tech, advance plasma weaponry, wormhole generation, and teleportation are all relatively low hanging fruits in the Tiberium tech tree. And that would be before we start throwing Eezo into the mix. Either tiberium tech has proliferated to the point it's ME in name only (which cheapens literally everything about what we're going through right now), or we're basically stuck being a tiny polity that punches outside its weight class with an immense and distinct industrial and technological advantage. In which case we're probably not going to have expand that much further beyond our local relay cluster.

Karugus said:

I'm kinda skeptical of a ME sequel. There's realistically a colossal population discrepancy between us and any major player, but the tech imbalance gets real real fast. Either we accept the Scrin are ridiculously advanced and out of context and we're getting to pick over and reverse engineer some really nice toys, or things like stasis tech, advance plasma weaponry, wormhole generation, and teleportation are all relatively low hanging fruits in the Tiberium tech tree. And that would be before we start throwing Eezo into the mix. Either tiberium tech has proliferated to the point it's ME in name only (which cheapens literally everything about what we're going through right now), or we're basically stuck being a tiny polity that punches outside its weight class with an immense and distinct industrial and technological advantage. In which case we're probably not going to have expand that much further beyond our local relay cluster.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I am not so sure.
While never made official, as far as I am aware, the idea that basically the whole eezo tech tree is a trap made by the reapers as an "easy way" for the emerging civilizations is not illogical. We also know that reapers are quite literally harvesting the civilizations to make more reapers, they are not interested in killing all life, thus primitive people being left alone.
Moreover, the Relais network is only present in a small part of the galaxy, looking at the official maps.
Thus big parts of the galaxy are more or less left alone.

And into this come the Scrin with their unique tech - while humans, regularly, would be just a footnote, introduction of Tiberium tech tree would be something the reapers did not plan for. This would make humanity extremely interesting, since we would be as close to an outside context problem as it gets.

Eh, ME cross just doesn't seem fun.

Karugus said:

I'm kinda skeptical of a ME sequel.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

tenchifew said:

And thus come the Scrin with their unique tech - while humans, regularly, would be just a footnote, introduction of Tiberium tech tree would be something the reapers did not plan for. This would make humanity extremely interesting, since we would be as close to an outside context problem as it gets.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Or it will be Babylon 5 sequel where while very strong Scrin wont that much out of norm as old Young Race. Hell with how we notice that Tiberium behaves as made by very assholish progenitors it may be truth in such case. With Scrin being either their servants(like Drakh for Shadows or Minbari for Vorlons) or species that had some tib land on their world but went with Adaptation path from start of this quest until they homeworld got blown up by tiberium.

It would fit with psychics being a thing and most of B5 galaxy being unknown wild lands full of wierd species/techs.

Karugus said:

I'm kinda skeptical of a ME sequel. There's realistically a colossal population discrepancy between us and any major player, but the tech imbalance gets real real fast. Either we accept the Scrin are ridiculously advanced and out of context and we're getting to pick over and reverse engineer some really nice toys, or things like stasis tech, advance plasma weaponry, wormhole generation, and teleportation are all relatively low hanging fruits in the Tiberium tech tree. And that would be before we start throwing Eezo into the mix. Either tiberium tech has proliferated to the point it's ME in name only (which cheapens literally everything about what we're going through right now), or we're basically stuck being a tiny polity that punches outside its weight class with an immense and distinct industrial and technological advantage. In which case we're probably not going to have expand that much further beyond our local relay cluster.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

From what Ithillid has said, it is likely to be the case that humanity will be smaller (in population) than the Systems Alliance, with different technology and a powerful industrial base. That certainly doesn't mean that we won't expand, and definitely doesn't mean that we won't have power.

Essentially, what I'm seeing with this is "I don't trust Ithillid to make a ME crossover interesting." That may not be what you mean, but it's how it comes across.

012345 said:

Or it will be Babylon 5 sequel where while very strong Scrin wont that much out of norm as old Young Race. Hell with how we notice that Tiberium behaves as made by very assholish progenitors it may be truth in such case. With Scrin being either their servants(like Drakh for Shadows or Minbari for Vorlons) or species that had some tib land on their world but went with Adaptation path from start of this quest until they homeworld got blown up by tiberium.

It would fit with psychics being a thing and most of B5 galaxy being unknown wild lands full of wierd species/techs.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I would be happy with either or both.
I loved Babylon 5 as a kid, and while flawed, Mass Effect universe is a masterpiece.

Karugus said:

I'm kinda skeptical of a ME sequel. There's realistically a colossal population discrepancy between us and any major player, but the tech imbalance gets real real fast. Either we accept the Scrin are ridiculously advanced and out of context and we're getting to pick over and reverse engineer some really nice toys, or things like stasis tech, advance plasma weaponry, wormhole generation, and teleportation are all relatively low hanging fruits in the Tiberium tech tree. And that would be before we start throwing Eezo into the mix. Either tiberium tech has proliferated to the point it's ME in name only (which cheapens literally everything about what we're going through right now), or we're basically stuck being a tiny polity that punches outside its weight class with an immense and distinct industrial and technological advantage. In which case we're probably not going to have expand that much further beyond our local relay cluster.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

It is going to be much more the latter than the former. And while your advantages are good, Mass Effect systems have their own advantages, and there are other areas where the aliens are much more advanced than you are. Tiberium trends towards really good DEWs, Mass Effect is Hax for kinetic arms and particle beams. Tiberium technology puts reactionless drives as something relatively simple, but actual FTL is effectively out of reach without bootstrapping. Eezo based technology is kind of the reverse, where things like Tantalus drives or singularity drives are difficult and expensive, but managing an FTL drive is something that you can do in the late 19th and early 20th century. It certainly won't be all one sided, and you will be learning from them just as they learn from you.
As for populations, you will be small, but Mass Effect, so far as we see in the games, is generally a setting of relatively small populations. 6.1 Billion on Palaven, 1.9 Billion on Digeris, as the major concentrations for the Turians in the Apien Crest. These are the largest known populations, with other Turian colonies ranging from a few tens of thousands to a few hundred million at the high end. Now, we know that there are a fairly large number of major colony worlds that we don't see in the game, likely bringing the Turian numbers up significantly, but to what degree, it is hard to say. Plus a lot of Turians in the Terminus Systems.

tenchifew said:

I am not so sure.
While never made official, as far as I am aware, the idea that basically the whole eezo tech tree is a trap made by the reapers as an "easy way" for the emerging civilizations is not illogical. We also know that reapers are quite literally harvesting the civilizations to make more reapers, they are not interested in killing all life, thus primitive people being left alone.
Moreover, the Relais network is only present in a small part of the galaxy, seeing the official maps.
Thus big parts of the galaxy are more or less left alone.

And thus come the Scrin with their unique tech - while humans, regularly, would be just a footnote, introduction of Tiberium tech tree would be something the reapers did not plan for. This would make humanity extremely interesting, since we would be as close to an outside context problem as it gets.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

My argument has nothing to do with whether the Reapers made Eezo technology to be a trap, and everything to with the fact that Scrin tech seems at least on par with Reaper-tech. Combine that with our relatively minuscule population and the measures GDI will take to prevent the proliferation of Tiberium, and it presents a quest where we don't have very meaningful reasons to engage with the rest of the galaxy and a lot of reasons to isolate parts of our polity from them.

We wouldn't have the reckless expansionistic drive of ME's humanity, or the same need to prove ourselves. Even if we're worried about Scrin invasion, it'd reasonable to assume it would come through the Threshold not nearby space.

012345 said:

Or it will be Babylon 5 sequel where while very strong Scrin wont that much out of norm as old Young Race. Hell with how we notice that Tiberium behaves as made by very assholish progenitors it may be truth in such case. With Scrin being either their servants(like Drakh for Shadows or Minbari for Vorlons) or species that had some tib land on their world but went with Adaptation path from start of this quest until they homeworld got blown up by tiberium.

It would fit with psychics being a thing and most of B5 galaxy being unknown wild lands full of wierd species/techs.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Scrin would flex so hard on Minbari it's not even funny- what with their mining expedition building massive, out of tune with reality invincible teleportation platforms. Or using weaponize ftl for WMDs. GDI right now is arguably more advanced than the EA.

There's a reason I've seen people argue Tiberium is more femtotech than anything else.

Lightwhispers said:

From what Ithillid has said, it is likely to be the case that humanity will be smaller (in population) than the Systems Alliance, with different technology and a powerful industrial base. That certainly doesn't mean that we won't expand, and definitely doesn't mean that we won't have power.

Essentially, what I'm seeing with this is "I don't trust Ithillid to make a ME crossover interesting." That may not be what you mean, but it's how it comes across.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I'm not saying we won't have power, I'm saying we won't have nearly the same engagement with the galaxy. Our biggest priorities would be to be left alone, and to prevent the crazy magical space rock of ours from getting off the leash. The dynamic between us and the vast majority of sci fi depictions of humanity emerging onto the galactic scene are completely different. And the inability of people to recognize that only makes me more skeptical.

We don't need all that much living space. We don't need raw materials. We probably won't even need that much Eezo given the ability to trade for it, and the likely ability to eventually transmute it. We don't even 'need' strategic depth all that much because the Scrin can teleport straight to our homeworld and where most of our industry/people are going to be for a good long while.

We are emphatically different from the SA or the EA and both those settings' primary plot lines are all rooted in a characterization of humanity completely different from GDI.

Karugus said:

We don't need all that much living space.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Actually, we're likely to be even more heavily colonial than the SA. Because one of GDI's top priorities is gonna be "get people off of Earth." To the point where ideally, Earth has a human population of like, single digit millions.

Whereas factions like the SA and EA still had the majority of their population Earthside.

Karugus said:

We wouldn't have the reckless expansionistic drive of ME's humanity, or the same need to prove ourselves. Even if we're worried about Scrin invasion, it'd reasonable to assume it would come through the Threshold not nearby space.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Interestingly, this would likely result in us having a significant ongoing push for a Project Dandelion to be implemented. Strategic depth is useless, so the closest things are security by obscurity and safety in numbers. Build a bazillion deep-space outposts and set up shop in systems as far from the relay network as possible. This results in an even greater set of functional isolationist tendencies as the human instinct for wanderlust is channeled towards finding ever unlikelier locations to settle.

[X] Plan Capitally Urgent, Funds for Steel Talons, Get Your First Shots, Cleanup on Aisle LEO

Karugus said:

I'm not saying we won't have power, I'm saying we won't have nearly the same engagement with the galaxy. Our biggest priorities would be to be left alone, and to prevent the crazy magical space rock of ours from getting off the leash. The dynamic between us and the vast majority of sci fi depictions of humanity emerging into the galactic scene. And the inability of people to recognize that only makes me more skeptical.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I don't "not recognize" that we would have a different emergence from many scifi depictions. I just don't see it as a problem. Yes, GDI will initially be quite isolationist and security-focused. First Contact with an alien was Kane, and Second was the Scrin. We will also want to get information on the wider galaxy, because maybe these possibly-not-hostile aliens have encountered the Scrin. It will be more of ensuring that our security needs are kept, while also trying to interact in a beneficial fashion. I honestly think it will be more interesting than your average "alternate humanity meets Mass Effect" narrative.

And I imagine we'll be pushing a "build tall" approach, in that we'll be building up our systems heavily, with massive fortifications. But, well... we'll see.

Chimeraguard said:

Actually, we're likely to be even more heavily colonial than the SA. Because one of GDI's top priorities is gonna be "get people off of Earth." To the point where ideally, Earth has a human population of like, single digit millions.

Whereas factions like the SA and EA still had the majority of their population Earthside.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

no it doesn't. SA and EA were having wildcat claims everywhere and expanding as rapidly as they could to claim space. GDI could easily fit their entire population onto Eden Prime with room for several more billions.

What's likely to happen is a couple of major colonies in the hundreds of millions/low billions to avoid putting all their eggs in one basket. But almost certainly nothing like what we saw with the SA expanding with tiny colonies into the traverse, the corporate colonies at Feros, or the industrial colony in the low tens of thousands at Therum. We're a centrally planned world government that heavily regulates all heavy industry for one thing, and we have the single largest, most centralized raw material source in the galaxy so we don't need to prospect for rare or heavy metals. And if we can offload billions of people to other worlds, we have the lift to transport processed material to our other colonies.

The notion the command economy with an eye for defensibility is going to expand harder and more dispersed than the free market driven, wild cat prospecting, pioneering federation of nation states is about as ass backwards as it gets tbh.

Lightwhispers said:

I don't "not recognize" that we would have a different emergence from many scifi depictions. I just don't see it as a problem. Yes, GDI will initially be quite isolationist and security-focused. First Contact with an alien was Kane, and Second was the Scrin. We will also want to get information on the wider galaxy, because maybe these possibly-not-hostile aliens have encountered the Scrin. It will be more of ensuring that our security needs are kept, while also trying to interact in a beneficial fashion. I honestly think it will be more interesting than your average "alternate humanity meets Mass Effect" narrative.

And I imagine we'll be pushing a "build tall" approach, in that we'll be building up our systems heavily, with massive fortifications. But, well... we'll see.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

The problem is that warps a lot of potential details. Humanity would probably join the Council if they don't push for the Tib tech (but they might), but then it just sort of develops. The odds of an Eden Prime with significantly higher population not having a defense grid, or defensive fleet are slim, and chances are good there won't be a first contact war to radicalize Saren. This quest is interesting, because there's pressing threats, hostile actors, a challenging time table, etc. all of those things massively change if this transitions into a quest where we have every incentive to take our time and mostly build tall in the background.

What do you actually see us doing in ME? Cause I see a lot of growing tall, researching Eezo, and fortifying. We have no cause to fight anyone, the Batarians will take a lot less swings at a tall, fortified neighbor than canon, we'd care fuck all about the Terminus systems besides maybe hunting Nod, and the Citadel would probably like our tech- but won't fight a war over it and we could endure anything less.There would be some diplomatic juggling, and I'm sure the reapers could get forced in somewhere complete with GDI Commando!Shepard- but it doesn't honestly sound nearly as fun as knife fighting a crazy religious fanatic as you desperately try to clean up the planet before magic rocks eat you both.

Ithillid said:

As for populations, you will be small, but Mass Effect, so far as we see in the games, is generally a setting of relatively small populations. 6.1 Billion on Palaven, 1.9 Billion on Digeris, as the major concentrations for the Turians in the Apien Crest. These are the largest known populations, with other Turian colonies ranging from a few tens of thousands to a few hundred million at the high end. Now, we know that there are a fairly large number of major colony worlds that we don't see in the game, likely bringing the Turian numbers up significantly, but to what degree, it is hard to say. Plus a lot of Turians in the Terminus Systems.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I think those small numbers are fairly deceptive. Earth has a bigger population because we have nowhere else to go. The Turians had millennia to spread out if housing prices on Palaven were not to their liking.

Nevermind how many Asari there are likely to be with their lifespan. I doubt enough Maidens are killed off through stupidity to keep them at small numbers.

Lightwhispers said:

And I imagine we'll be pushing a "build tall" approach, in that we'll be building up our systems heavily, with massive fortifications. But, well... we'll see.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I can well imagine GDI building fortress colonies instead of the shotgun approach. It's not like they have a pressing need for raw materials with Tiberium. So they can be a bit pickier on where they want to settle as long as they have access to Earth and it's Tiberium.

The trickier part will be them eventually spreading Tiberium. On a practical level, it's fairly smart to dump some on mars like worlds so they have even more materials to work with and be not as vulnerable to being cut off from earth.

But GDI comes with a huge trauma in regards to Tiberium.

Right, the reason Mass Effect got picked is broadly 3 things.
1. A detailed expansive setting that is very well indexed.
2. Easily accessible.
3. A place where GDI can stay recognizably GDI.

The discord has talked about Star Trek some, but that runs into the issue of GDI will become effectively startrekized, and has fairly little to actually offer the crossover.
Something like B5 is fairly hard to access, at least for me, and the materials are not particularly well indexed for searching.
There are other options out there certainly, but I am not really familiar with them.

Edit: This is also something that is real world years down the line.

Karugus said:

The problem is that warps a lot of potential details. Humanity would probably join the Council if they don't push for the Tib tech (but they might), but then it just sort of develops. The odds of an Eden Prime with significantly higher population not having a defense grid, or defensive fleet are slim, and chances are good there won't be a first contact war to radicalize Saren. This quest is interesting, because there's pressing threats, hostile actors, a challenging time table, etc. all of those things massively change if this transitions into a quest where we have every incentive to take our time and mostly build tall in the background.

What do you actually see us doing in ME? Cause I see a lot of growing tall, researching Eezo, and fortifying. We have no cause to fight anyone, the Batarians will take a lot less swings at a tall, fortified neighbor than canon, we'd care fuck all about the Terminus systems besides maybe hunting Nod, and the Citadel would probably like our tech- but won't fight a war over it and we could endure anything less.There would be some diplomatic juggling, and I'm sure the reapers could get forced in somewhere complete with GDI Commando!Shepard- but it doesn't honestly sound nearly as fun as knife fighting a crazy religious fanatic as you desperately try to clean up the planet before magic rocks eat you both.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

See, you're saying all this... And you're 100% correct. I agree. A 'systems alliance' using the GDI tech base and having a wholly different culture and approach would cause all kinds of butterflies to mass effects setting and plot.

That's the point.

Changing something to see how it butterflies things from there and snowballs into more changes. Which is all kinds of useful because it allows a different story to canon mass effect and means we won't always 'know' the answer by using out of character knowledge.