Uh...yes they do.

We are a neighboring Power with the POTENTIAL to be a Problem for either them or their little Pet Kingdom.

That should be reason enough for them.

Granted, whether they will do it or not is another Question. But they very much have reasons to attack us.
Firstly, again I never denied that they might try to infiltrate us regularly but it's the difference between might and definitely will as well as how much damage they will try to do

And secondly you're setting far too low a bar for what is deemed necessary to intervene in from the information we have, with Brochard they intervened because they knew he was a warmonger and that en Empire united under him would be a disaster and there's literally a laundry list of reasons for what they did to Maretonia

If all someone needed to be is a neighbour that theoretically might one day maybe be a problem they'd never stop sabotaging people
 
If all someone needed to be is a neighbour that theoretically might one day maybe be a problem they'd never stop sabotaging people
And who says they have ever stopped? What makes you so certain they will just be peachy-keen with us and are not already planning to stab us in the back?

Sorry, but I really think you are taking the Changelings and the potential threat they pose way too lightly. Ironic, considering your irrational bashing of the Yaks, who have never and will never be a big Issue for us.

But neitehr of us will convince the other, so let's agree to disagree.
 
And who says they have ever stopped? What makes you so certain they will just be peachy-keen with us and are not already planning to stab us in the back?
The fact that there is absolutely no evidence of that? The fact that the defector we have has made it clear that the Changelings act to maintain the peace and stability of Canterbury? Or how about the fact that if the Changelings were mass saboteurs that have been destroying anything that could possibly maybe be a threat then almost none of the nations we know about would exist?
Sorry, but I really think you are taking the Changelings and the potential threat they pose way too lightly.
I'm not though, I fully acknowledge that they're an issue we should be wary of but you're entire argument seems to be that they're going to act to tear down the Empire regardless of what's e do which is viewing them as a far more active and aggressive threat than we have any reason to believe they are
Ironic, considering your irrational bashing of the Yaks, who have never and will never be a big Issue for us.
Ah yes, my mild dislike of the Yaks that I play up as what 99% of people recognise to be a joke truly these are the same things
But neitehr of us will convince the other, so let's agree to disagree.
Fine, if I still haven't been able to convince you that my Yak comments are jokes then I definitely won't be able to convince you of this
 
A big thing about all our past conflicts is that we only ever went to war once we were sure we could win.

We outnumbered, out-teched and out-skilled Brochard.

We defeated Sombra TWICE from incredibly well-defended positions AND further sabotaged him before actually attacking him.

We waited to intervene in Maretonia until we could be sure we wouldn't fight against multiple factions, and that we had the support of most of the locals and factions.


About the Changelings... a big reason why we didn't reveal their existence yet is because... well, if we did, we wouldn't win.

And by that, I mean we wouldn't achieve our objectives. We can definitely have Canterbury and the changeling lose, but that's not the same as winning.


What do we want? A stable Canterbury that is no threat (preferably without massive civilian casualties and suffering), Changelings that are not enemies but instead friendly (also no longer as hidden)

Nice extras: A conquered/annexed Canterbury and/or changeling hive, but those are very much a nice-to-have-but-not-necessary. I'm definitely happy with leaving them to self-rule, I just acknowledge that if, say, the canterburian ponies came to US in search of a new ruler after discovering their previous ruler was a liar and that she actually allowed the monsters to roam... well, I won't say no to more free estate.


Right now, the changeling queen is happy with the status quo. She doesn't realize that her situation is NOT sustainable long-term.

That's good. It means that she won't do anything too drastic unless pressed. Which means we have time to prepare.


Now, a few of you might say "but Pittauro, she's already making a mess for us! Remember Brochard and Mareia?"

Why, you're right!

But if that (which, admittedly, ended up pretty well for us and seems to have been done without malice, but mostly in an effort to remove potential threats with a MOTIVE to be a threat to her) is what she did while she thought her safety was assured... what would she do if we actually pushed her against a wall?


All of this just to say... if-when we act OPENLY against the Changelings, we need to be in a position to finish things quickly and in a satisfying way.

Otherwise, better to buy more time and continue to improve our position.

Let's be real: time is on our side. We're the strongest economy (possibly only rivaled by Equestria), have the strongest and biggest army, the best infrastructure... the One thing Canterbury has on us is magic, and that advantage is only going to shrink with our introduction and developments in the fields of pony magics, runes, crystal magic and hippogriff magics (plus possibly other magics from immigration).

Now, those things would make us safe from Canterbury... but admittedly might not be enough to be safe from the CHANGELINGS.

They don't play by normal rules. The war with them is a war of intrigue.

But even THERE, Time is our friend!

We already have two gynes on our side. If we can get more, we might be able to grow a splinter faction inside of her own hive... and have her deposed from the inside, in a coup, with some support in terms of magical weapons/equipment/people, and a promise of support for their future reveal.

Or, if we find how gynes can evolve to royal status... well, we can found a new hive, use THEM to reveal Changeling existence, and proceed from there.


So, tl;dr version: We're not ready to act against the changelings and they're not an imminent threat (yet), and time is on our side. Let's continue as we are, try to progress on our projects (Gynes, intrigue, everything else), and let's be ready to act if pushed... otherwise, better to wait for a better moment.
 
*TEARS, Dragons are magical treasures and we just decided to blow it up. Also we should try to dig our teeth into the kingdom before we leave or convince both sides they should join us.
 
But even THERE, Time is our friend!

We already have two gynes on our side. If we can get more, we might be able to grow a splinter faction inside of her own hive... and have her deposed from the inside, in a coup, with some support in terms of magical weapons/equipment/people, and a promise of support for their future reveal.

Or, if we find how gynes can evolve to royal status... well, we can found a new hive, use THEM to reveal Changeling existence, and proceed from there.
Not to mention that we have the advantage of the Changelings not being used to people knowing about them which allows us to act around them far more efficiently, hell we can just send Rose to make up a cover story to get them to fuck off on occasion
*TEARS, Dragons are magical treasures and we just decided to blow it up. Also we should try to dig our teeth into the kingdom before we leave or convince both sides they should join us.
Do I have good news for you my friend

1) We took some parts of the dragons bodies back with us

2) We fully intend to try and turn them into a Protectorate in a few turns when the meeting to discuss their fate occurs
 
The biggest advantage we have against the changeling hive is THEY HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH OF A THREAT WE REALLY ARE!
The mere fact we know they exist would make us a threat IF they knew about it. But they don't, and since their whole thing is spy games they don't really view us as a threat, especially since we haven't shown anything that might hint towards animosity and potential invasion of their 'vassal'. So, while we view them as a threat, they see no reason to see us as a threat. I mean, can ANYTHING manage to actually OUTSPY the changelings?!?!?!? :lol: :rofl::lol::rofl:

Edit: The Griffons can but they don't know that do they?
 
Maybe it's just my personal enmity for the changelings from what I know of the show.

I'm just not willing to trust these Emotion-Vampires and I'm not sure if I ever will.

Granted, maybe that's also irrational. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.
 
Edit: Though the latter idea might work. Albeit with the catch that we don't know how hives form, and such would likely grab the queens attention, since where could we have gotten the protoqueen?
I imagine we would have to do some research on the subject. If we can't figure it out by interviewing/studying Rose then we might have to gather that information via intrigue actions. We already know it's possible for the nymphs to become queens so in theory it should be possible for one to form a rival hive. The question is simply, what the requirements are that one hasn't done so already? Maybe it requires more love than one could normally get by herself?

As for the Canterbury queen finding out where ours came from, that's not the secret. The secret would be that we know about it. We would pretend to believe our own lies. The Canterbury hive could be kept in check by our hive threatening to tell us about them if they try anything. If they believe we don't actually know then they'll have to leave ours alone if they want to continue maintaining the status quo, which they will at least in the short term. In the long term they might be convinced to gradually weaken the masquerade themselves and in doing so reduce the likelihood of conflict with us because they would think we only know what they've revealed themselves.
 
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As for the Canterbury queen finding out where ours came from, that's not the secret. The secret would be that we know about it. We would pretend to believe our own lies. The Canterbury hive could be kept in check by our hive threatening to tell us about them if they try anything. If they believe we don't actually know then they'll have to leave ours alone if they want to continue maintaining the status quo, which they will at least in the short term. In the long term they might be convinced to gradually weaken the masquerade themselves and in doing so reduce the likelihood of conflict with us because they would think we only know what they've revealed themselves.
Except if she realizes we have a proto-queen from her hive, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to assume that said now queen whom turned her back to the hive may have told the king of her new host of the Canterbury hive. There would need to be some way to both convince them we somehow don't know and even if it did work, we would need to deal with their attempts to close the security loophole...
 
Except if she realizes we have a proto-queen from her hive, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to assume that said now queen whom turned her back to the hive may have told the king of her new host of the Canterbury hive. There would need to be some way to both convince them we somehow don't know and even if it did work, we would need to deal with their attempts to close the security loophole...
I mean that we would pretend our changelings lied to us about where they came from and that we don't know about the hive in Canterbury because of that. Our changelings could then use the threat of us finding out as a nuclear option to threaten the Canterbury hive with.
 
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Do bear in mind that it never was *actually confirmed*, that the Changelings were behind Mareias assassination - it´s simply a very likely conclusion to our diggings many took as iron-clad fact to support their dislike of the Changelings as a polity.

So yeah, the only two things we KNOW they did are goading Brochard into attacking us and everything surrouding the Lady of the Lake - both of which do not necessarily foster trust from us, but can still rather easily seen as a necessary evil by a somewhat-shortsighted monarch.

Maybe it's just my personal enmity for the changelings from what I know of the show.

I'm just not willing to trust these Emotion-Vampires and I'm not sure if I ever will.

Granted, maybe that's also irrational. Maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

Just saying that being emotivorous does not mean that Changelings *Have* to be evil.

For all we know, they might have started as nice, open folks, who got ostrazised by close-minded ponies for "being different" and were forced into hiding to survive, where demagogues like Chrysalis reformed them into the sneaky, unscruplolous gits that appeared outta the blue to wreak havoc in early FiM.
 
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Do bear in mind that it never was *actually confirmed*, that the Changelings were behind Mareias assassination - it´s simply a very likely conclusion to our diggings many took as iron-clad fact to support their dislike of the Changelings as a polity.
We literally had a intrigue chain that led us to Canterburry, the last action which we Nat 100(!), and we got no more actions to search for the culprits after the changeling turncoat joined us.

If the changelings didn't assassinate the queen, then our GM is intentionally pulled a wool over our eyes and I don't think Questor is that kind of a GM. Do you?
 
We literally had a intrigue chain that led us to Canterburry, the last action which we Nat 100(!), and we got no more actions to search for the culprits after the changeling turncoat joined us.

If the changelings didn't assassinate the queen, then our GM is intentionally pulled a wool over our eyes and I don't think Questor is that kind of a GM. Do you?

Circumstantial evidences.

We *know* that the plant used for the poison primarly inhabits Canterbury and we were very likely to stumble over the Changelings, so Rose pre-empted us blowing the lid aobut Changerbury by approaching us directly and explaining things in a way she hoped would prevent us from fucking things up.

Still doesn´t mean that the Changelings actually did the hit on Mareia.

Three words, pal:

"False Flag operation"

Theoretically speaking, a Maretonian living close to the Canter-border could have harvested the plant in question and gotten the poison to Mareia to *implicate* the Canterburians in her murder.

As for us discovering the Changelings, we/they were simply at the right place at the right moment.

Indeed a strong correlation, but not an actual water-tight causation.
 
It is still not out of the question that Mareia was poisoned by Pegicles... (who would have been displeased that the Queen didn't retalitate after we used Intrigue to recover the people they took as slaves without paying them anything)
 
It is still not out of the question that Mareia was poisoned by Pegicles... (who would have been displeased that the Queen didn't retalitate after we used Intrigue to recover the people they took as slaves without paying them anything)

Considering that he *repeatedly* has been shown to be utterly callous in how to reach his goal and that he "owned" the Maretonian lands bordering Canterbury, I wouldn´t be surprised at all if he or one of his croneys did the deed, yes.
 
....at this rate the conspiracy will devolve into how our spy agents were infact from another Changeling Hive and how our wife were secretly being possesed by a Nightmare given we don't have an interlude from her perspective.
 
....at this rate the conspiracy will devolve into how our spy agents were infact from another Changeling Hive and how our wife were secretly being possesed by a Nightmare given we don't have an interlude from her perspective.

Probably so, yes.

Some people seem to be intent to foist any kind of calamity on the Changelings just because of "fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice, shame on me" running rampant.

There is a word for people being used like that without an actual reason:

*Scapegoat*
 
what we know about the Changelings, beside the generics (biology, abilities, diet and so on from Rose).

1)They hide in Canterburian's "dead/chaos" magic monster zones. I think we suspected Orichalcum being involved, which fits both the "magic stops working" and "in canon, Chrysalis had an Orichalcum throne".

2)They actually control Canterbury's pony kingdom and use their religion as the main level or control (and likely source of food). Queen Chevaline is probably in the know, and Merlin already knew/heavily suspected about them before we told him.

3)Queen Phalanx likes, and wants to keep, the status quo. That's not truly feasible long term, and we wouldn't want it even if it was.

4)Queen Phalanx only cares about her situation and, to a lesser extent, that of her changelings. She often sends Gynes on risky missions, presumably hoping they'll die, to remove potential challengers to the throne.

5)Canterbury's elite knights are basically under her sway through magically strenghtened loyalty.

6)Queen Phalax is likely to react drastically if she feels threatened.

7)Changelings were behind Brochard's treasury disappearing. They also pushed him to attack us by convincing him we were going to attack first, ruining any chance of diplomacy (but quickening the advent of our glorious kingdom!)

8)They're most likely behind Mareia's assassination. I give it a 90% chance at least. It COULD have been someone else (everyone had a motive), but it's unlikely.

9)In both (known) cases she acted (presumably) to remove potential threats, namely a military expansionist (and short-sighted, as we could see from his absurdly high taxes) ruler likely to not be willing to engage in diplomacy with Canterbury and an ineffective queen that was not even able to keep her own nobles and military in check (also Maretonia had already attacked and tried to get ponies to enslave from them). They were both advantageous to us, which implies the queen approves of us. Maybe because she thinks we're not a threat due to our usually friendly demeanour towards allies, maybe because she thinks she can direct us to remove threats for her (Sombra, Maretonia, future threats), maybe because she thinks our ideals and society will be a good target for more love-gathering in the future.

She might even have known about Sombra, and rushed the gryphon's unification to nurture a polity to face him for her.

10)She doesn't do as much intrigue as we'd expect from her, probably out of a mix of arrogance and disinterest. She only sends the Gynes, mostly to stop them from making problems at home. Presumably that means there's a few dozens agents at most, if not less
 
Right I've never talked here but it's about time, the civ stuff is interesting. I've never watched the show so forgive any inaccuracies.

Anywho, regardless of if the changelings did *anything,* countermeasures are needed, some form of master/stranger protocols. Why? Because regardless of actions, they're really good at intrigue, so it's best to be prepared.

Also, I'm inclined to straight annexation rather than protectorates in this case, but that's besides the point.

We could perform an investigation for justice sake, regardless of conspiracy I think folks would appreciate the truth.
 
Barring anything suddenly catching on fire (*sideyes Maretonia*) I'm hoping to concentrate on rebuilding (topping off our minimal army losses, Maretonian aid/war spoils), recruiting more Gynes & Changelings in general to show up Phalanx (WE HAVE MOONSHINE & TRAINS!), and some family time. Also maybe checking out why the Minotaur Republics were being so suspicious before and developing Kestrella (get that last Knight order lol, maybe that logging industry we've been neglecting if we have extra though I doubt that) a little bit while juggling keeping the Yeti situation from going off before we can get in some of that good civ development in.

...Is it too ambitious to hope that we get the opportunity to develop some radio or radio analogue of some kind soon? Scrying Portals are interesting, but require a magic-user, it would be nice to have either variety or something reliable to mass-produce. Coupled with our future air fleet, it seems like the next best thing that isn't a weapon or direct industrial growth, plus it would affect all levels of the empire similarly to how trains did.

Either way, I'm really excited to squabble and shill plan builds on this quest again (imminent! So excited!), those are always fun.

EDIT: Also now that the war's like, over, we can finally do that immigration campaign action without looking dumb!
 
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Right I've never talked here but it's about time, the civ stuff is interesting. I've never watched the show so forgive any inaccuracies.
there's plenty of people here who did, so if you have questions... well, feel free.

Of course there's plenty of differences here (for example show Kirins are VERY different from Neighpon's Qilin here), but still there's useful bits of knowledge. Mostly about Equestria and future villains.

on a secondary note, the mlp movie for the NEXT generation just came out on Netflix, is good and doesn't require previous knowledge, so maybe you might give it a try. It's basically set an unknown amount of time after "friendship is magic", where everyone forgot about this ancient age of friendship and harmony.

Anywho, regardless of if the changelings did *anything,* countermeasures are needed, some form of master/stranger protocols. Why? Because regardless of actions, they're really good at intrigue, so it's best to be prepared.

Also, I'm inclined to straight annexation rather than protectorates in this case, but that's besides the point.

We could perform an investigation for justice sake, regardless of conspiracy I think folks would appreciate the truth.
we already investigated and found out Mareia was assassinated through a poison only found in Canterbury's lands.

The only thing we could do after this, and after all this time, to verify if the changelings are the culprit... would be to get a changeling in the know to confess.

And if it's not changelings, it's been so long we'd never find out except by luck.

Also we already adopted changeling countermeasures, problem is that they're of limited effects.

here's the relevant bit.

-Internal Security Reforms: Changelings. Shapeshifters that can take on the appearance of any sapient being and near-perfectly imitate them. Their mere existence constitutes one of the greatest security threats you've ever encountered. For all you know, Queen Phalanx could have agents embedded all throughout your government, even within the halls of the palace itself! Rose assures you that such tactics are not the Queen's way, but that does little to reassure you. You need a way to ensure such infiltration is not happening, and to ensure that it won't if it isn't. Have Ravenburg make it a priority under the guise of security reforms. Cost: 800. Time: One Year. Reward: Reduced Risk of Changeling Infiltration and Mundane Espionage.

Ravenburg sets to work. Surprise inspections of several Imperial institutions and offices of bureaucracy are made as records are closely audited and key personnel are subjected to interviews that are almost akin to interrogations as they are subtly exposed to Orichalcum without their knowledge. Departments are reorganized and entirely new supervisory bodies are created as background checks become mandatory for anyone pursuing or seeking a career within the higher echelons of government, be it as a tax collector, a military officer or a servant within the Imperial Palace.

Naturally, such actions do not go unnoticed, and speculation abounds as to the reason behind such measures, but Ravenburg is prepared. His most trusted agents, already personally verified by him, spread rumors of acts of embezzlement and corruption coming to light as a result of such sweeps. You're a bit disappointed to find that there is actually some truth to these rumors, as more than one Griffon in a position of authority is found to have skimmed from their budget or solicited bribes from Imperial Citizens. Still, the culprits make for good scapegoats, and the public vilification of such lawbreakers does much to draw attention away from the security sweeps that discovered them.

By the end of the year, Ravenburg is pleased to report that there are no Changelings anywhere within the government, and the new security measures put into place should ensure that they stay out. Of course, this doesn't mean that the shapeshifters are not hiding amongst the general public...but short of turning the Empire into a totalitarian police state, there's nothing anyone can do about that. You no longer have to worry about an infiltrator changing your chambers or poisoning your soup, and that's good enough for you. Imperial Palace and Bureaucracy Verified Changeling Free, New Security Measures Implemented.
short version: government workers (and the palace) should be secure. Not much more we can do.

...Is it too ambitious to hope that we get the opportunity to develop some radio or radio analogue of some kind soon? Scrying Portals are interesting, but require a magic-user, it would be nice to have either variety or something reliable to mass-produce. Coupled with our future air fleet, it seems like the next best thing that isn't a weapon or direct industrial growth, plus it would affect all levels of the empire similarly to how trains did.

mh... maybe it's a bit too soon for Radio, and in any case the first ones would likely be pretty big and small range... but the telegraph would be a good alternative. We could even have the cables go underground in tunnels digged by the dogs maybe.


And there's always the possibility of mixing magic and tech. Maybe instead of radio and telegraph we could have runic arrays for long-range communications, for example.


I'm still hoping that, long term, we'll be able to build some kind of teleportation network. Even a very expensive one would be invaluable to, for example, move ambassadors between countries.

EDIT: Also now that the war's like, over, we can finally do that immigration campaign action without looking dumb!
Yeah, that's an action I've wanted to take for a while... though maybe it's not the right moment.

I mean, we're ALREADY getting plenty of pony immigrants.

On the other hand, an immigration action focused on experts of their fields would be much better.

For example, Qilin shipbuilders to combine their knowledge with ours, and magic-users of any kind.
 
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