Can we please do the Griffonstone Revitalization after this? I'm writing another city omake and need more material to put in the economy section so it's not really lopsided toward the history section
Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest
- Thread starter Questor
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- Location
- Italy
the only answer you can get right now is "maybe".
As we don't know what we'll do about Maretonia yet, we also don't know how many actions and resources we'll have to spend on THEM, and how many are left for everything else.
After all, the more we take/get from Maretonia, the more we'll have to invest back into them to avoid discontentment.
We'll also likely want to take actions aimed at organizing the immigrants and take advantage of the low-hanging fruits of the various pony magics (like improvements to agriculture, weather control and storm prevention, unicorns with spells that can synergize with our industry (for example spells that reduce friction to achieve better fuel economies on our trains, or to reduce wear and tear...unicorn magic is really only limited by what Questor will let us get away with).
We might even upgrade from steam power to electricity, by using pegasi-generated electricity! Renewable energy before even really starting on oil
Still, the coming turns are certainly going to be full of important projects
I get what you're saying but I would somewhat contest this, recognisable Maretonian society has been dead for a while
Keep in mind that as far as we're aware Maretonian culture and society is built upon the pillars of royalty, nobility and slavery and two of those things have been dead for a while and the third definitely doesn't have enough survivors to reassert itself
It's also worth considering that unlike the Crystal Protectorate situation Maretonian society is so deeply stratified that what one group considers to be Maretonian another group could completely disagree, not to mention the people that abhor everything about the country
I disagree with the idea that Pegicles was just a distant threat that didn't directly impact the lives of most Maretonians because keep in mind that a significant chunk of the country was under his direct control, thousands of people were forcibly conscripted by him, thousands more are probably on the brink of starvation thanks to him and potentially millions were forcibly displaced by him
It's definitely not as bad as Sombra but the vast majority of Maretonians have had their lives overturned by Pegicles, hell I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the Maretonian boogeyman, and us defeating him will probably earn us a lot of goodwill
Firstly don't forget about all of the Maretonians that have family in the Empire, those who are only alive thanks to Imperial relief supplies and the nobles we have in our pockets
And secondly the emancipated slaves have exactly no reason to believe the Empire is anything but on the level and even less reason to care about what happens to Maretonia, it's not their home that they're proud and patriotic of, it's the hellhole that enslaved them and their loved ones for potentially their entire lives
They're definitely not in as bad a shape as the Crystal Protectorate was but I wouldn't be surprised if the average person is desperate
It's easy for us to forget because we see things in turns but this war has been going on for 5-6 years at this point and most of the survivors have probably lost their families, been forced to flee several times, been on the brink of starvation or all three during that time
Also it's worth remembering that it will probably be a turn or two before a decision with what to do with Maretonia is made, during which time we can nudge them towards protectorate status, or at least check it's popularity, and they'll probably become a lot more desperate
I think to some extent you're underestimating how much the Abolitionists trust us, not only are we the singular reason their uprising was possible in the first place and actually freed a lot of them from slavery but a lot of them have also directly interacted with and befriended Imperial soldiers and operatives sent to help them but arguably most of them will have family who escaped to the Empire to seek asylum from whom they'll only have heard good things
I kinda have to disagree with you there, the majority of groups weren't really fighting to save Maretonia
The Abolitionists were actively fighting to destroy the institution of slavery and arguably to destroy the very foundation of Maretonia
House White Star was just a bunch of greedy nobles that were only interested in maintaining their own positions
And the Royal Guard were kinda just interested in keeping people safe and avenging the Queen/Roam
Unfortunately that will probably be very expensive and between having to make back some do the money we lost and inevitable investment into Maretonia I doubt we'll have time for the Griffonstone project
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- Location
- Goose Land
So, I am definitetly biased against the Changling Governing Body (aka Queen Whatshername).
It's been quite some time, but she has not been flatteringly portrayed through the text in my readings and I just don't trust a governing body that deliberately manipulates their Monster population to prey on their malcontents and civilians. And I'm about 90% sure that was all but said to have been happening in text, until Canterbury was forced into the International light at which point they started working on doing a giant Monster purge.
The prior Maretonian administration is dead. Literally or figuratively.
If the Civil War hadn't happened, I'd almost certainly be advocating for a combination of applying support and pressure to the Queen to put her under our thumb and to make that actually matter, as well as supplying and training the Abolistionists to the point that they had a significant amount of leverage within the country, and then using the both together to basically institute a Coup of their general nobility to either kill or trivialize them and then force through "Slavery is Bad" laws.
But the Queen was assassinated and Civil War happened, so instead we needed to deal with a collapsing country and our first views of Magical WMDs.
In light of the original Maretonian side of things being literally six feet under, and the results of the Civil War (aka Mass Civilian Death and Displacement), the fact that the evidence points to the Intrigue Faction Who Has Already Done This Sort Of Sneaky Beaky Shit Before as the culprit very much inclines me to blame them for as much as could be feasibly blamed upon them.
Is this fair? I feel like it is, but you both obviously disagree.
At this point I think we'll only find out for certain after we're able to go through their records.
It benefits them to keep those in power directed elsewhere and focused on other threats.
The section you quoted to for this response was intended to be an understated declaration of "I think Queen Changling is operating under Bad Guy rules."
Whether or not that's actually the case will require further investigation.
I do believe that in Canon they had Mental Influencing Powers, and said powers were part of how the Queen directed the Hive. I am uncertain of specifics because it's been quite some time, so it's possible that's a "Queen Only" thing, but I'm fairly certain I remember there being something about mentally influencing the Knights in Canterbury?
I'm pretty certain that the whole "Visions" thing is the Queen, or whichever selected Princess, doing a mental communication to the subject receiving the "Vision". In that light, I am exceptionally hesitant to have anyone we trust let alone Garrick himself close to being affected by a "Vision".
It's been quite some time since I've read the debrief all told.
- Location
- Italy
ok, I think I need to check her name again...
Truths and Revelations, right after turn 28 results
not quite as bad as you're making it sound.
My reading is that they basically used the presence of monsters an a way to keep people better contained in their cities, as a way to justify the existence of their sacred knights (loyal to the Lady of the Lake above everything else), and to hide the locations of their hives.
It's not literally oppression, though it's still bad. Presumably the cities are still safe, but ponies are very much encouraged NOT to leave them, for their own safety (and the safety of the changelings).
After all, THOSE Changelings don't seem to be like those under Chrysalis, kidnapping ponies, putting them in pods and draining them of love. It seems like instead they feed on the religious love for the lady of the lake, and "ambient" love in general. Also possibly a few changelings gathering love in very respected positions in Canterburian society.
For example, I imagine a noble knight would get a lot of love from everyone they save.
We were told that the final step to become a knight of the lady of the lake is to drink a potion that makes them easier to influence for the Changeling Queen.
Not outright mind control, but as they're already loyal it might as well be for the effects it has.
We haven't been told about anything as simple as "zap, you're now under my spell", but the powers of the strongest magical beings are hard to estimate without more intel. The Queen might very well be able to do this. Sombra definitely could, Discord could (but then again, he's Discord), and I wouldn't be surprised if the Alicorn princesses could (but didn't because morals).
Also in canon Starlight Glimmer also could do that by combining a few spells (she used it on the main characters, twilight excluded), and Twilight herself used a want-it-need-it speel as soon as season 2 (and that's just another favour of mind control, or at least mind-influence).
About the visions: They are PROBABLY just how the Changeling queen communicates with Queen Chevaline (or how they explain changeling-intrigue-intel, if she knows about them).
Then again, We know that the Yaks seem to have actual prophetic abilities (though it's hard to say if they're actually seeing the future. IT could just be explained as feeling the present very far away (Sombra was building up an army, the conditions for a harsh winter are already there...),and in canon it was sort of implied that Celestia might have prophetic dreams too (though it was barely one scene, and it might just be a coincidence. That said, fanon sometime has the "new magics" the alicorn sisters created to ascend be, respectively, dream magic and the prophetic dreams...)
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I recognize that there's room for a less awful interpretation, but "Queen Shieldy is a Giant Asshole" is how I've understood it (or how I remember understanding it at least) so while I will refrain from adding more to the topic (there's not really anything else to say) I will finish this statement with the affirmation that I feel as though my read of things in a general sense is not wrong.
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I'm imagining meeting an openly known and sharing Hive who are entirely up front about everything and am just.
Laughing. And laughing and laughing.
I do believe the GM outright admitted that sometimes the changelings release a monster or two to eat some peasantry so they will become more thankful of the knights that come safe the day and thus the Lady, when questioned...
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- Goose Land
I knew I'd remembered that correctly.
Again you're looking at it in the worst possible interpretation, as far as I'm aware there has been absolutely nothing to indicate that the Changelings are deliberately having the monsters target people
As for only doing something about them now because they're in the international light, they've been a part of the global society for almost a decade now and they only just started the purges last year
The issue is that if you're willing to blame them for everything that feasibly could maybe have been them then we can blame them for literally any bad thing that ever happens
That does also benefit them but the Changelings have no reason to suspect that we know they might be a threat and there is no debating that keeping their own citizens happy and safe is genuinely in their own best interest
I think that's just a general hivemind thing but I might be wrong
As for the mental influence, as has been pointed out I think that's just a potion they give them to make them more susceptible which is morally questionable but not mind control
I don't agree with doing the vision action either though I think they are just things that the Changeling's spies had found out about and then tell the Queen
The closest thing I can find to that is this:
Which basically says that they're mainly maintained to justify the existence of the knights and to give the citizens something they can attribute to the Lady
That is very different from intentionally sending them out to eat peasants/dissidents
- Location
- Goose Land
You now understand why I am frustrated at the Changlings for what we can prove that they've done, and for what the evidence highly suggests they've done.
Politically, this is a horrible mess, because until they're brought to heel revealing them will lead to many innocents dying, and I am counting Changling Citizens/Drones as innocents.
And if we can't reveal them, we can't let our Allies know that they need to develop countermeasures against them, which means any incident within our sphere of influence and beyond might be Changlings, which makes resolving it peacefully all the more difficult.
I just
"a combination of breeding efforts and carefully misleading or sabotaging hunting parties."
"and signs of the Lady's favor or wrath"
"Monster attacks, or the lack thereof, are easy to arrange"
And now let's look at the other two answers Questor gave in that post:
At best, the Changlings are being criminally negligent in their Monster Breeding and prevention of culling efforts.
At worst, they specifically lead and provoke Monster Attacks to silence (aka Murder) malcontents.
Please tell me that you at least understand where I'm coming from with this. That there is sufficient Word of God that I'm not wrong to be able to have this interpretation of the text, even if you disagree with it.
- Location
- Italy
I admittedly didn't remember that one.
hivemind should be a fanon only thing. we NEVER see any hint of changeling hivemind/telepathy in the show.
Even the "feel emotions" bit is, I think, only a fanon thing.
to some extent a "potion that makes sure of one's loyalty" is actually understandable for your most elite soldiers... of course the fact that a FAKE Goddess is giving it her knights, and presumably they don't KNOW what it does, makes it much worse.
Most likely, yeah. There's admittedly a small chance of the changeling queen being a prophet... but it's still pretty unlikely. Spies explains enough.
After all even her "visions of alicorns" is a LOT less impressive now that we now Equestria is their neighbour. If it had been, say, on the other continent, It would have been enough to prove the "prophet" bit.
(Monster attacks, or the lack thereof, are easy to arrange, and equally easy to attribute to the Lady's will.)
This heavily implies that, when necessary, monsters conveniently attacks people who gained the goddess's enmity.
and, on the other hand, that the most loyal followers are the ones that NEVER receive attacks.
Of course the attacks don't necessarily need to finish in fatalities... but still, they definitely happen.
...and @Walliseatscheese posted even more quotes, I see
RoninSword
Sky God
- Location
- Canada
Wasn't there a bit recently about how Canterbury Knights went on a rather successful monster hunting spree recently (somewhat recently)? Internal confusion from us about this shift in (Changeling) Canterbury policies/politics.
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- Goose Land
Yes. My understanding is that Griffon contact basically forced them to do it.
We demonstrated that a Nice and Friendly Country who doesn't Enslave People can clear their borders of Monsters.
Monsters kill people.
We don't have an official religion.
Therefore, does one really need to live in Canterbury to do the Lady's Will?
Merlin seems to think that's not the case!
All this together basically presented Queen Shieldy with the choice of Clear The Monsters or Lose Population to Immigration to Gryphus.
There are also political effects to this, making them look more Civilized as a Nation as they finally got around to securing their lands from internal threats, and if leveraged correctly they can ride the Crusade into a nice land development and population boom, but those details are more adjacent to the (as I see it) primary reason of reasserting internal control and trust in the Knightly Institutions.
The issue is that you're basically taking that to mean the Changelings are responsible for all negative major events which is very unlikely when you consider that every Changeling plot we are aware of consists of singular agents doing one or two things
It is important to note that monster attacks do not necessarily equal deaths since the main reason the monsters are kept is to give the knights someone to fight and it's unlikely they do it just because of one or two dissidents
You're not wrong to have that interpretation, it's just the most negative interpretation you could have
No matter how you look at it the majority of stuff we think the Changelings might do pales in comparison to the stuff we know Maretonia definitely did
Hivemind may be a bit strong but since they are a literal hive with a queen, drones and gynes I would be surprised if they don't have some connection
True but at the same time you could argue that the knight's are willingly taking it and do know what it does, it allows them to better communicate with the Lady, it just so happens that the Lady is a Changeling queen
Yes, they started purging their monster population last year
Once more that is the most negative take on the situation possible, the reasoning that they're doing it because Griffon contact forced them to do it is very flawed because we met almost a decade ago and they just started now and the issue with them looking incompetent is that they have a specially made excuse that the remaining monsters dwell in patches of high magic density which are extremely dangerous and chaotic, which the Changelings could maintain very easily
- Location
- SF Bay Area
While I do understand people's desire to start cracking on the Changeling threat, they are also a KNOWN danger, personally I think we should spend a bit of effort learning about this new threat to the South and quite possibly the last undiscovered regions of our continent… We got lucky against a few Dragons with our whole army. If the Dragons decide to look further out, we might be in serious trouble. To say nothing of the threat in Storm Country which we also don't know much about. As much as I hate to suggest otherwise, we need to know more about the UNKNOWN threats on our continent before we can handle the known ones
<mired in complex war of shadows in Canterbury>
Celestia: Uh… hey Garrick… So the Yeti are invading Stalliongrad, and the Dragons are going after Neigh Orleans.… and our army is getting torn up… Can you help us?
<Garrick's eyebrow twitches>
Garrick: We will do what we can… anything else
<Sun sets at noon>
Celestia: My sister may have gone a teensy bit evil?
Nightmare Moon: WHEREST ARE THY CANDIES FROM ZEBRICA!
<Celestia pushes candy wrappers under a rug>
<mired in complex war of shadows in Canterbury>
Celestia: Uh… hey Garrick… So the Yeti are invading Stalliongrad, and the Dragons are going after Neigh Orleans.… and our army is getting torn up… Can you help us?
<Garrick's eyebrow twitches>
Garrick: We will do what we can… anything else
<Sun sets at noon>
Celestia: My sister may have gone a teensy bit evil?
Nightmare Moon: WHEREST ARE THY CANDIES FROM ZEBRICA!
<Celestia pushes candy wrappers under a rug>
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That might not be a bad thing. I could see us negotiating with another changeling hive as long as they understand that messing with us is suicide. The only reason we are keeping the Canterbury hive at arms length is that we don't have any way to deal with them without potentially causing a worse problem. The Canterbury changelings finding out that we know about them could cause a war with the Lady of the Lakes Cult and making that public knowledge could bring about the complete collapse of Canterbury.
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- Location
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So I know that was a concern before.
But we're literally about to rebuild what used to be a peer power?
So at this point as long as no one blames us, from a purely political standpoint I'm okay with causing Canterbury to collapse so we can sweep in and fix things.
So expose their secret without them knowing we were the ones that did it? That could work, especially if there's someone we can frame for it.
If that option is too heartless for most players then I think I have an alternative. Rose, a nymph, has the potential to become a changeling queen, right? So maybe we could have her start a friendly changeling hive in the empire. We'll introduce them to the public as refugees from a far off land that we've allowed to immigrate in return for helping develop countermeasures against any other changelings we might encounter since that's a serious threat that we would want to prepare for. We continue to act like we have no idea the Canterbury hive exists though. A few years of changelings openly living as citizens of the empire would show the Canterbury changelings that they have other options aside from a futile struggle to maintain the masquerade indefinitely and might soften the blow when it inevitably ends.
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Among the 'conspiracy', we have a defector that may not be happy with the inflicted disaster on her people, even if she sees it coming, and then we got Merlin whom probably wont be happy with us sparking a worst case scenario, and the fact that Garrick himself likely would be hesitant to purposefully do that. Now if someone else tips the house of cards...
Edit: Though the latter idea might work. Albeit with the catch that we don't know how hives form, and such would likely grab the queens attention, since where could we have gotten the protoqueen?
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The issue with that is that Maretonia arguably deserved to collapse, what with the mass slavery, oppressive caste system, greedy, uncaring nobility and genocidal generals, not to mention that collapsing Canterbury by revealing the Changeling's won't just effect Canterbury
It would paint a huge target on our backs and make us Changeling enemy number one, and don't think for a second that the Changelings wouldn't survive the war, which would make our lives far more difficult
Plus it would almost certainly result in an attempted genocide of the Changelings
Bold of you to assume they won't come after us anyway.
I didn't assume that, it's possible they might, though based on established patterns they have no reason to do so and we'd have advanced warning with our precautions
But if we expose them it goes from a possibility that they might invest some resources to infiltrating/sabotaging us to a near certainty that they'll invest as much as they can to do so
Uh...yes they do.
We are a neighboring Power with the POTENTIAL to be a Problem for either them or their little Pet Kingdom.
That should be reason enough for them.
Granted, whether they will do it or not is another Question. But they very much have reasons to attack us.