Who Needs Harmony?: An MLP Empire Quest

[TheLordofAwesome]

If we protectorate them, we will be obligated to help them. We set the standard after all when we took over Aquilia and the CP. In addition, I think this hurts the image of us coming not as conquerors if we, ya know, take over the territory in all but name.

Where as if we let them be independent, we can offer as much aid as they are willing to accept, in addition we could encourage other nations to help with the rebuilding/relief efforts. Plus I think PR-wise, it is a greater boon to help them out than strongarm them into obedience.

 

[Alexander Sturnn]

If we protectorate them, we will be obligated to help them. We set the standard after all when we took over Aquilia and the CP. In addition, I think this hurts the image of us coming not as conquerors if we, ya know, take over the territory in all but name.

Where as if we let them be independent, we can offer as much aid as they are willing to accept, in addition we could encourage other nations to help with the rebuilding/relief efforts. Plus I think PR-wise, it is a greater boon to help them out than strongarm them into obedience.

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I mean, we don't even know what they think about this yet. For all we know, there could be widespread support among them to BECOME a Protectorate.

Still, that debate is essentially unimportant right now. We'll see what the Situation looks like once they have thought it over and we have called a conference. If most of them want to remain independent, then we should accept that.

 

[jonasquinn]

Hopefully we won't have to do this again. We at least had the excuse of "we had a good reason, we had the support of basically the majority of Maretonia, and our target had already pillaged their capital and burned the farmland after using a WMD on its own territory"

Plus... well, slavery.

It would be oh so easy to find excuses to act on other territories. For example the Yeti for the Orichalcum (and, in the past, the YAKS for the Orichalcum, though I wonder how things would have gone if we had tried to conquer/shadow rule Yakyakistan...).

Still, we can luckily and honestly say that all our wars were more than justified, and we were more than gracious in our victories.

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To be fair I'm still in favour of dealing with the Yeti's, we're yet to see anything that suggests they can be dealt with any other way

I'm actually in favor of not Protectorate-ing them? Gawain is speccing pretty well into diplomacy and if/when he ascends the throne (my preference being we step down to enjoy our twilight years) I'd prefer there to be a lot of nations to diplomance.

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I mean, there will still be a ton of nations to diplomance if we turn Maretonia into a protectorate

Hell there's a whole other continent we haven't explored yet

I'm personally pro-independence. They suggest suffered a massive, bloody civil war, the least we can do is give them the right to determine their own future.

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Nobody is saying we full on annex them but a similar situation as with the Crystal Protectorate where they can decide to leave down the line is arguable genuinely in their best interests

I don't think we'd have to Protectorate them to give them aid. There might be additional hoops or complications, but I doubt it'll be one or the other.

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We don't have to but there are significant issues with providing them aid without doing so

1) We simply cannot justify helping them as much as we otherwise would if they aren't a part of the Empire
2) There's a lot of technology and infrastructure that I at the very least would not feel comfortable giving them if they're independent, especially when we haven't shared most of it even with our actual allies
3) Any government set up by the Royal Guard and Abolitionists will take months at best, if not years, to actually stabilise and even then will almost certainly be riddled with corruption, infighting and incompetence
4) If we don't get involved it is almost inevitable that the Changelings will infiltrate it on some level at least which means a thing we provide them with they will almost certainly get as well
5) Even ignoring the other issues in a best case scenario Maretonia would end up enormously in debt to the Empire during the period when they can least afford it because a huge chunk of their population is dead, just as many have left, their two most important cities were wiped off the map, a lot of their farmland has been burned down, their entire system of governance has been upended and the industry that their economy was based on has been destroyed

If we protectorate them, we will be obligated to help them. We set the standard after all when we took over Aquilia and the CP. In addition, I think this hurts the image of us coming not as conquerors if we, ya know, take over the territory in all but name.

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Let's be honest, we're going to help them no matter what it's just a matter of how effective that help will be and how much we'll benefit from it

As for not being conquerors, it's not like all our legitimate reasons for intervening disappear and if people raise questions about it we can just point out all the good reasons a protectorate is a good idea and that if they vote to leave when the time comes they can leave

Where as if we let them be independent, we can offer as much aid as they are willing to accept,

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Except for all the issues I listed above

in addition we could encourage other nations to help with the rebuilding/relief efforts.

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To what benefit?

Plus I think PR-wise, it is a greater boon to help them out than strongarm them into obedience.

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Firstly you're kinda strawmanning the protectorate argument, nobody is saying anything remotely similar to strong arming them into obedience

Secondly as has been discussed before we have no shortage of people who like us and the positive PR we'd get from not turning Maretonia into a protectorate doesn't outweighs the benefits of doing so

 

[Axel Fones]

I mean, there will still be a ton of nations to diplomance if we turn Maretonia into a protectorate

Hell there's a whole other continent we haven't explored yet

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That is true, but I want there to be as many extent nations as possible.

We don't have to but there are significant issues with providing them aid without doing so

1) We simply cannot justify helping them as much as we otherwise would if they aren't a part of the Empire
2) There's a lot of technology and infrastructure that I at the very least would not feel comfortable giving them if they're independent, especially when we haven't shared most of it even with our actual allies
3) Any government set up by the Royal Guard and Abolitionists will take months at best, if not years, to actually stabilise and even then will almost certainly be riddled with corruption, infighting and incompetence
4) If we don't get involved it is almost inevitable that the Changelings will infiltrate it on some level at least which means a thing we provide them with they will almost certainly get as well
5) Even ignoring the other issues in a best case scenario Maretonia would end up enormously in debt to the Empire during the period when they can least afford it because a huge chunk of their population is dead, just as many have left, their two most important cities were wiped off the map, a lot of their farmland has been burned down, their entire system of governance has been upended and the industry that their economy was based on has been destroyed

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Who said anything about giving them our technology? For me personally, when I mentioned aid I meant things like food to not starve, seeds and other farming equipment to get self-sufficient, and stone/other building material. Whether we give it for free or mark down the price or give them a payment plan or whatever is obviously up in the air and more open to discussion when Questor gives us the facts on the ground.

Edit: the changeling thing I'll grant you, but there's a PR cost to personally ensuring that doesn't happen when taking them over in all but name.

And some people/groups/nations might prefer to be in debt for years or decades if it means they're self-deterministic. That's not necessarily a bad or dumb thing.

 

[jonasquinn]

That is true, but I want there to be as many extent nations as possible.

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To each their own, for me the downsides of having one less nation are more than made up for by the benefits of a new protectorate

Not to mention it's not like Maretonia would suddenly disappear, we'd still have to diplomance with them

Who said anything about giving them our technology? For me personally, when I mentioned aid I meant things like food to not starve, seeds and other farming equipment to get self-sufficient, and stone/other building material. Whether we give it for free or mark down the price or give them a payment plan or whatever is obviously up in the air and more open to discussion when Questor gives us the facts on the ground.

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The issue is the damage to Maretonia can't be solved with food, seeds and construction materials

They've just gotten out of a war that has literally upended every single aspect of their country, they literally don't have a government any more, huge swathes of their population are just gone and the industry that their entire economy revolved around doesn't exist anymore

The abolition of slavery alone will cause enormous issues without something like trains to fill the void

 

[AthetosAdmech]

What we need are wards, something to create interference and enchanted to prevent scrying or divination so magic users cant see where they are aiming. So Runes, to make wards, enchantments to program what they need to target a specific branch of magic. Which sounds way more cheaper thing to research and develop then making a room made out of orichalcum.

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And for that we need a far greater number of mages than we currently have. While I'm happy with the outcome of this battle that tactic was only as effective as it was because pegiclese' faction lacked mages that could counter such unorthodox strategies, and attacks like that would likely be just as effective against us for the same reason. There's not much we can do about it now but as soon as the gryphon/pony hybrids reach adulthood we need to start building a magical corps to counter stuff like this.

 

[Axel Fones]

The issue is the damage to Maretonia can't be solved with food, seeds and construction materials

They've just gotten out of a war that has literally upended every single aspect of their country, they literally don't have a government any more, huge swathes of their population are just gone and the industry that their entire economy revolved around doesn't exist anymore

The abolition of slavery alone will cause enormous issues without something like trains to fill the void

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They have the framework for a new governmental body. They have the royal knights, they have the abolitionists, and they have the wizards. It's not a lot, it's going to take months- if not years in the absolute worst case- of effort and dialogue, and obviously there's going to be bumps and misteps, but countries have formed from just as small beginnings. We obviously have the power, but do we have the right to sweep in and say "No, you shouldn't attempt to stand on your own (minus whatever aid we give you), warts and all"?

edit: The Crystal Ponies started from less than nothing when we saved them and made our intervention ethically necessary. Maretonia has a hell of a lot more going for it even if it'll take a lot of time to build back up. And those difficulties are worth their freedom to some people and groups.

 

[TricMagic]

One idea for an anti-teleport ward would be using orichalcum as a magic sink somehow Draw magic too it and forcibly redirect teleports..

 

[silvershark]

One idea for an anti-teleport ward would be using orichalcum as a magic sink somehow Draw magic too it and forcibly redirect teleports..

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My guess is that after what we did, we're going to get a stewardship option to put up some anti-teleportation runes in our cities.

 

[Walliseatscheese]

(Magic Drone Strike: 98)

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Oh my.

That settles that it looks like.

(Intrigue action to off Chrisalis and put Rose in power? Only me? Okay...)

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It's been quite some time, but iirc the current Intrigue chain was effectively "Search out and gather more Changling Princesses to assemble the Hive Control necessary to either bargain from a position of Power or institute a Coup."

@Maretonia Post War:

Here's what I suggest.

We present them with 4 Options.

Option 1: Basic Aid Package

In essence, we look at how much we can afford (this is the bit that will take debate on our side) to spend to help them rebuild and not starve while they rebuild, from a purely financial, food, and volunteer basis, and offer up like, half of what we can afford? 3/4ths? It'll depend on what we can actually afford. In addition we'll poke our Diplomatic Contacts pointing out "Hey, they finished their war, now would be a good time to get in good with their newly developing government and send some aid."

The Price? Nothing. Maybe some "diplomatic concessions"? In essence, we recognize that without our help more people will die, and we aren't about that.

We will begin this option as soon as they're willing to let us do it.

Option 2: Expert Aid Package

In addition to option 1, we'll specifically send in our own work forces to help rebuild infrastructure and modernize to a point, across the entire country.

The Price? Idk, some land concessions? I don't actually know what pieces of land we'd actually want. Maybe recognition of our "rights" over that "no man's land" that Maretonia raided a lot that borders the Crystal Protectorate, if I'm remembering that correctly? I'm also thinking about an Imperial Observer in their government, basically an Especially Fancy Ambassador, in the interest of being a "liason" aka "They're here to help provide a consistent mediator between the factions and to also look grumpy if you go do things we really wouldn't like, such as screwing over the ex-slaves." I'd suggest Trade Concessions but they don't actually have a trade economy at the moment sooo.

Option 3: Last Gen Aid Package

All the prior options, plus we'll actually teach your people how to make infrastructure that's only somewhat behind current Griffon Empire standards.

The Price: all the prior stuff, plus I want Mare-A-Thon.

Option 4: So You Want To Be A Protectorate

So basically we do what we did for Crystal Land. Full modern redevelopment, massive investments into infrastructure, government, and defense, etc etc.

(We'll almost immediately build a Wall blocking off the Dragons hint hint nudge nudge)

The Price: Protectorate status. You'll be nominally self governing, just look at the Crystal Protectorate, but we are in charge of foreign policy and your laws need to be broadly acceptable to our legal system. Feel free to have a referendum in like a decade or two if you want to join the Empire directly.

And then we let them make the big decisions about things.

 

[jonasquinn]

They have the framework for a new governmental body. They have the royal knights, they have the abolitionists, and they have the wizards. It's not a lot, it's going to take months- if not years in the absolute worst case- of effort and dialogue, and obviously there's going to be bumps and misteps, but countries have formed from just as small beginnings.

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They have the absolute barebones beginning of a framework, though I wouldn't count the mages since they don't have any form of organisation left and are just as likely to leave as get involved, but the only two organised groups left actively hate each other and that's before you take into account the few remaining nobles, surviving Pegicles supporters and any divisions that may emerge between the Abolitionists

We obviously have the power, but do we have the right to sweep in and say "No, you shouldn't attempt to stand on your own (minus whatever aid we give you), warts and all"?

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No but that's not what we'd be saying, what we'd be saying is "The war left your country in such a state that it will take you years to even slightly recover and in the meantime thousands more people are going to starve to death, be killed in the ensuing chaos or be rendered completely impoverished all while a nascent government made up of groups who hate each other argue about what they should do but we can provide you with the supplies, resources, framework and expertise needed to avoid that in exchange for oversight and some taxes until things have stabilised enough for your people to decide what they want and fend for themselves"

edit: The Crystal Ponies started from less than nothing when we saved them and made our intervention ethically necessary. Maretonia has a hell of a lot more going for it even if it'll take a lot of time to build back up.

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Yes they have more going for them but they're also significantly more fragmented, with far more internal disputes that will cause problems and without a unifying enemy to blame it on

Not to mention that a lot of the institutions that their culture was built around have been destroyed and the survivors have very different opinions about how good that culture ever was

And those difficulties are worth their freedom to some people and groups.

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Yes to some people and groups, nobody has ever claimed that every Maretonian would support becoming a Protectorate but at the same time the vast majority of Abolitionists will have an infinitely better opinion of the Empire than they ever did of Maretonia and would rather join it or at least have some Imperial oversight to prevent the Royal Guard and surviving nobility from trying to reinstate the status quo

 

[Walliseatscheese]

Part of what I like about my 4 Options idea is that if they leave it at Option 1, then what's probably going to happen is massive immigration to the Empire because there's food and work there which will pressure their factions to work together so that they don't become an Imperial Protectorate by the default fact that we hold the majority of their population.

 

[Axel Fones]

They have the absolute barebones beginning of a framework, though I wouldn't count the mages since they don't have any form of organisation left and are just as likely to leave as get involved, but the only two organised groups left actively hate each other and that's before you take into account the few remaining nobles, surviving Pegicles supporters and any divisions that may emerge between the Abolitionists

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To be fair we did just literally warn them to not force us to come back.

Yes to some people and groups, nobody has ever claimed that every Maretonian would support becoming a Protectorate but at the same time the vast majority of Abolitionists will have an infinitely better opinion of the Empire than they ever did of Maretonia and would rather join it or at least have some Imperial oversight to prevent the Royal Guard surviving nobility from trying to reinstate the status quo

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That's absolutely fair. Ultimately we have to wait to see what the facts are on the ground in the months to come. I don't particularly have anything else to say that isn't just going in circles so I'm fine leaving it as "agree to disagree" if you are.

 

[jonasquinn]

To be fair we did just literally warn them to not force us to come back.

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Yeah but some people are idiots, this is the same country that thought it was a good idea to enslave a sovereign nations citizens, refuse to release them, made a national pastime of planning to assassinate their ruler and a not insignificant number of their nobles spent most of the civil war sitting around arguing with each other

That's absolutely fair. Ultimately we have to wait to see what the facts are on the ground in the months to come. I don't particularly have anything else to say that isn't just going in circles so I'm fine leaving it as "agree to disagree" if you are.

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That's fair, sounds good to me

 

[Pittauro]

I'm actually in favor of not Protectorate-ing them? Gawain is speccing pretty well into diplomacy and if/when he ascends the throne (my preference being we step down to enjoy our twilight years) I'd prefer there to be a lot of nations to diplomance.

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that's hardly a good reason to NOT protectorate them!

There's plenty of nations around other than Maretonia after all.

Canterbury, Yakyakistan, Equestria, Storm Country, Olenia, Emerald Island, Neighpon, plus all the undiscovered nations.

And with Airships and faster ships, the world is going to shrink a bit.

I'm generally in favour of Protectorate, but it depends a lot on the actual conditions and reception we get.

We could very well even manage to justify an annexation, if we also promise protection from the dragons to the south AND Heavy support in rebuilding... but it might not be worth it and/or popular, either home or with Maretonians themselves.

3) Any government set up by the Royal Guard and Abolitionists will take months at best, if not years, to actually stabilise and even then will almost certainly be riddled with corruption, infighting and incompetence

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While I support annexation or protectorate (depending on updated situation), let's be real: There will be corruption even if WE get to be in charge.

After all it's not like we're going to send only gryphons to lead, we'd likely choose leaders from the locals. It just looks better that way (and arguably IS better too).

4) If we don't get involved it is almost inevitable that the Changelings will infiltrate it on some level at least which means a thing we provide them with they will almost certainly get as well

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They didn't really show any interest in what goes outside of their country except for moderate spying. And they can do that even with us there.

Really, we can barely keep changelings out of the truly important bits, we CAN'T actually keep them out of everything if they really want in.

To what benefit?

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Equestria might want to help, actually. They'd probably get future trade concessions in exchange, either from us (if we annex them) or them (if we don't).

They have the framework for a new governmental body. They have the royal knights, they have the abolitionists, and they have the wizards. It's not a lot, it's going to take months- if not years in the absolute worst case- of effort and dialogue, and obviously there's going to be bumps and misteps, but countries have formed from just as small beginnings. We obviously have the power, but do we have the right to sweep in and say "No, you shouldn't attempt to stand on your own (minus whatever aid we give you), warts and all"?

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...kinda?

We have the ability and the power to help and or do basically whatever we want with Maretonia. If we believe that will result in a better future for them too, we kinda HAVE the right.

That said, I'm not saying we HAVE to annex them (or protectorate). But it's definitely an option, a GOOD one, and I'm getting a bit annoyed at the "it's just wrong" arguments.

Part of what I like about my 4 Options idea is that if they leave it at Option 1, then what's probably going to happen is massive immigration to the Empire because there's food and work there which will pressure their factions to work together so that they don't become an Imperial Protectorate by the default fact that we hold the majority of their population.

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While I like your idea in principle, that's just not how I imagine the vote would work.

In the end it's likely WE will have to choose between different options with different costs (example: if we annex, we have to dedicate x resources and actions to Maretonia AND have to keep people happiness above x to avoid rebellion, or maybe we can take a bit of land from their north in exchange for help rebuilding), and NOT have them decide.

It's a quest. WE are the ones that decide between options.

 

[jonasquinn]

While I support annexation or protectorate (depending on updated situation), let's be real: There will be corruption even if WE get to be in charge.

After all it's not like we're going to send only gryphons to lead, we'd likely choose leaders from the locals. It just looks better that way (and arguably IS better too).

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Oh there would definitely still be some corruption but at least we would have the men and resources to combat it while still helping rebuild

They didn't really show any interest in what goes outside of their country except for moderate spying. And they can do that even with us there.

Really, we can barely keep changelings out of the truly important bits, we CAN'T actually keep them out of everything if they really want in.

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My main concern is that if we leave Maretonia to fend for themselves the Changelings will either sabotage them to prevent them from becoming a problem in the future or a rogue Changeling will take advantage of it

Equestria might want to help, actually. They'd probably get future trade concessions in exchange, either from us (if we annex them) or them (if we don't).

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My bad, I meant to what benefit to us?

 

[Pittauro]

My bad, I meant to what benefit to us?

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well, shared projects with other nations help build familiarity, and people tend to hate/fear the unknown.

Basically, the more thing we do working together with other countries, the less likely they are to become hostile and the more chances we have to establish good relationships and/or improve upon them.

Also, we get reduced costs on our projects hopefully.

We're rich, but we JUST went through a war, and infrastructure and rebuilding is NOT cheap.

 

[jonasquinn]

well, shared projects with other nations help build familiarity, and people tend to hate/fear the unknown.

Basically, the more thing we do working together with other countries, the less likely they are to become hostile and the more chances we have to establish good relationships and/or improve upon them.

Also, we get reduced costs on our projects hopefully.

We're rich, but we JUST went through a war, and infrastructure and rebuilding is NOT cheap.

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That's fair, though I still wouldn't say it outweighs the benefits of a protectorate

 

[masterofmadness]

1)Maretonia situation post-war: Annexation, Protectorate, Independent nations, split between different factions...

2)Equestria: We just met, but we KNOW they are invaluable allies and trade partners. We'll want to take actions related to them to press on the good first impression we made.

3)Yeti. both on the Yaks' side, and on Equestria's side. They're a future threat, and we need to plan for it, likely while involving both Yakyakistan and Equestria

4)Changelings. Enough said above.

5)Dragons. Hopefully we can just NOT deal with them for now, but who knows.

6)Every other minor thing, including Libertalia situation, The Caribou on the other side of the ocean, new undiscovered lands (We know the Zebras live on that continent too), Crystal Referendum, immigrants, general tech/diplo/trade questions, whatever the Minotaurs are hiding from us...

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Okay I have a plan that lets us deal or start addressing almost all of these! International conference.

We just shocked the world with what we did in Maretonia so let us send out invitations to every known nations to an international summit to discuss its future. It is unprecedented but we have the pull and once the major player start to show up fear of missing out in the decision making will make other come as well. From their we can sooth any international worries we have cause while impressive everyone with out nations prosperity and power in peace. Let me go down the list of how this could help each problem:

1) First off we can use this to make sure the New Maretonian government has international approval whatever it is, if everyone got to say their piece it is hard to say it is not legitimate. If we choose to try and make a protectorate we can make it clear why with international approval, once we line to just how expensive such a rebuild is I doubt that anyone else will be willing to step in and take over for us. If not we get spread out the burden of aid to numerous nations rather then on just us alone. We won't be able to unilaterally dictate the choice but we can put a lot of weight on it and I doubt many nations or our allies will go against us on much. The Yaks and Neighpon are anti-slavery and close friends as us since they fought Sombra, Equestria too and I doubt Canterbruy is any more friendly.

2) We can introduce Equeatria to the rest of the world diplomatically in a controlled environment and let them see our country with their own eyes. Hearing from our allies about us should help calm some anxieties too.

3) The Yeti are going to require cooperate between Yaks and Equsteria anyway to deal with so we can do that too.

4) You know what else is on both the Yak's and Equestrian's borders? Canterbury. If we want we have a way to get both of the leaders of the nations we would need most to cooperate with against the changelings alone in a room in high security to discuss troop military matters without anyone arising suspicion. It would probably also be a prime bait for the Changeling to act so we can see what they do as well.

5) This is a prime carrot for opening relations. Whatever dragon is in charge the one thing we can count on is their long term greed. If we can get them to send a representative then we can show both a carrot and stick. Be peaceful to use and you can trade with us and the entire international community for more money, if not you can take a long look at our empire's capabilities and see if it is worth it in comparison.

6)A lot of these like Libertalia, the raiders and the minotaur could be a lot easier if we communicated it in a general conference with the minor powers.

Of course this would also probably be another multiple post turn break right after we already had one.

 

[AthetosAdmech]

A lot of you seem to be overthinking the post-war situation and making it more complicated than it really is.

First we need to wait for them to set up some form of government even if it's something temporary. Can't engage in diplomacy if there's no one in charge to talk to. After that there are really only three options that we can present them with:

1) foreign aid: we offer them food and medicine for a few years to keep people from dying and encourage other nations to do the same. The maretonians will remain completely independent but they will be be almost entirely responsible for rebuilding their nation. The only condition we would have is that slavery is outlawed by the new government.

2) nation building: In addition to basic aid like food and medicine we could offer to help rebuild infrastructure and offer military aid until they can defend themselves. In return we would demand further concessions such as giving up territory along the border of the crystal protectorate. The initial territory of the abolitionists at the beginning the war would be ideal in this case because the river on the far side of the former abolitionist territory would make a clearly defined border that could be more easily defended than the current border. The rest of Maretonia would remain self governing and become completely independent as soon as they can support and defend themselves. Anything that happens after that is their problem.

3) protectorate status: this is the same deal we gave the crystal ponies. They lose their independence but we become responsible for them and obligated to aid them in any way we can.

 

[Walliseatscheese]

They didn't really show any interest in what goes outside of their country except for moderate spying. And they can do that even with us there.

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I will remind you that they A) helped set off our Firsr War, B) ran off with The First Slain King's Treasury, and C) assassinated the Queen of Maretonia and almost certainly helped lay the groundwork for the Civil War to really burn hot.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they were half the reason why the Royal Guard and the Abolitionists were so hostile to each other.

While I like your idea in principle, that's just not how I imagine the vote would work.

In the end it's likely WE will have to choose between different options with different costs (example: if we annex, we have to dedicate x resources and actions to Maretonia AND have to keep people happiness above x to avoid rebellion, or maybe we can take a bit of land from their north in exchange for help rebuilding), and NOT have them decide.

It's a quest. WE are the ones that decide between options.

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Remember when we pitched an Aid Package to the Royal Guard Commander and there were dice rolls involving whether or not they'd accept certain things?

I imagine it would sort of be like that.

 

[Walliseatscheese]

Of course this would also probably be another multiple post turn break right after we already had one.

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I am broadly in favor of setting up an International Conference, but I don't want to have the question of what's happening with Maretonia to be unanswered before it happens.

In addition, I'm fairly certain that the political situations of a few of those powers are complicated enough that trying to have a single representative of them would make things more difficult. Basically we should get the scoop and actually have some political exploration and development of at least the Minotaurs and the British Isle Dogs first.

Also I feel like giving the Changlings an easy opening into more International Spy Games is a bad idea, so we should also try to at least reach a truce there first.

 

[jonasquinn]

I will remind you that they A) helped set off our Firsr War, B) ran off with The First Slain King's Treasury, and C) assassinated the Queen of Maretonia and almost certainly helped lay the groundwork for the Civil War to really burn hot.

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To be fair they did A knowing it would probably benefit us, B wasn't that bad and C did end with the collapse of a nation we were probably going to have to deal with eventually anyway

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they were half the reason why the Royal Guard and the Abolitionists were so hostile to each other.

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I mean, they do also have a lo history of slavery to explain that

 

[Markala]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if we managed to get enough defectors for Rose to form a hive in our territory. Having friendly changelings would probably be the easiest way to counter enemy changelings.

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Well we DO have another Gyne (Ruby) on our side, two for two, that everyone seems to keep forgetting exists... So we're ahead on that so far?

 

[Captainwolf]

Well we DO have another Gyne (Ruby) on our side, two for two, that everyone seems to keep forgetting exists... So we're ahead on that so far?

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I thought we sent Ruby to be a double agent?