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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Rafin said:
Let's not. Even if I weren't German I would rather not try to start an argument on how a real life event with people who still remember it is similar or different from a feudal power fighting vampiric enemies.
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We've been having that argument ever since somebody decided to make this about colonialism, which is why a lot of people (including me) have been flinching every time somebody tries to force that analogy. And I am 1000% okay with not trying to force a historical IRL lens onto a fantasy setting, I was just making the point that even IF you just had had had to force such a lens onto things then colonialism is still a worse fit by far than any number of others. But "let's just not" is an even better alternative, so yes please.

I'm honestly baffled that "is it ethical to force out vampires from their time-honored traditions of ruling over and periodically eating people in between invading us?" has somehow become a point of contention in the thread. Yes, yes it is. You would have to truly work overtime at being shitty on purpose in order to not be an upgrade. I'm honestly wondering if the next turn in this is going to be "hasn't anyone considered the plight of the dispossessed and slaughtered greenskins and Skaven who once happily occupied K8P." Just... if we could please stop trying to force IRL historical and/or moral framings onto scenarios that are genuinely different from any historical scenario IRL.

And as far as the Border Princes specifically are concerned, there are essentially no long-standing indigenous cultures and definitely no deep-rooted indigenous rulers to the region, unless you want to count Barak Varr (which they'd prefer you didn't). Because they're the Border Princes. Everything gets swept away whenever a Waaagh rolls through, which happens quite regularly. We're not discussing breaking off a chunk of Bretonnia or something like that, where it's a region that actually has a distinct native culture and a tradition of local rule (by pretty shitty lords, but that's another kettle of worms entirely). This is a region where leadership turnover is even more frequent than the general turmoil occasioned by the aforementioned regular Waaaghs. Providing stability, material support, a rational and non-oppressive legal code, and the right to shelter in Barak Varr when the next horde comes sweeping through is an unambiguous upgrade for literally any human population in this region. To the extent that there's a local culture, the "local culture" is of doing exactly what's proposed: sweeping in from wherever and trying to take over and/or build something.
 
tapkomet said:
I see. I suppose I misunderstood the point.

In that case, let me put it this way: we can just do diplomacy non-threateningly. Like, roll up to Mirstadt, and, if the bandits seem reasonable enough, go "hey dudes, I happen to be extremely rich and extremely friendly with Dwarfs. If you give up banditry and work for me, I can promise you a bunch of money, Dwarf ale imports, and probably sanctuary in one of the Dwarf holds next time a Waaagh comes by. You know, because the Dwarfs love me so much, and I can vouch for you. It's cool if you aren't interested though."

Sure, they'll be a bit spooked, but it's like everyone will just assume we'll murder them if they refuse the work offer. And if diplomacy is unsuccessful, we can then try other approaches.
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People typically took up banditry because it was a way to make a living without getting an actual job. Why would they work hard for us when they can have the comparatively easy job of mugging peasants and working for themselves.

This isn't to say bandits don't "go legit" or aren't on some level motivated by resource scarcity[1] - but the type of person who takes up banditry tends to be the type that defies authority and is willing to participate in casual violence for self-enrichment.

Robin Hood, they ain't.

[1] the distinction between "bandit" and "raider culture" is probably one of how many generations in you are.
 
picklepikkl said:
(Of course, if you try explaining the real structure to the dwarves: "there's actually eight separate Wizard's Guilds, and they're all in Altdorf, and they're independent from one another except in the ways that they aren't, and one Grandmaster from one of them gets to be in charge of all of them, but they maintain their own internal structures and Guild secrets," well... it would be a patient Dwarf indeed who sat through the whole explanation without grumbling at you.
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Oh, that's easy.

They're eight different Guilds covering subjects that are broadly similar in the sense that woodworking, leatherworking, stoneworking, and blacksmithing are all about shaping materials, but are entirely different, and use different and incompatible methods. No one above the rank of Apprentice ever moves from one Guild to the next. They're just eight different guilds, because there are eight different Winds.

But because they serve parallel functions and are directly subordinate to the High King of the Manlings Emperor, they have a single senior Grandmaster who's in charge, chosen on a rotating basis.

That topmost position is the only confusing part, if you present the eight Colleges to a dwarf as being eight separate Guilds that handle different Winds that aren't supposed to mingle.
 
ScottishMongol said:
People typically took up banditry because it was a way to make a living without getting an actual job. Why would they work hard for us when they can have the comparatively easy job of mugging peasants and working for themselves.

This isn't to say bandits don't "go legit" or aren't on some level motivated by resource scarcity[1] - but the type of person who takes up banditry tends to be the type that defies authority and is willing to participate in casual violence for self-enrichment.

Robin Hood, they ain't.

[1] the distinction between "bandit" and "raider culture" is probably one of how many generations in you are.
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I feel like this is worth looking at, even if its about Pirates instead of bandits.
 
Simon_Jester said:
That topmost position is the only confusing part, if you present the eight Colleges to a dwarf as being eight separate Guilds that handle different Winds that aren't supposed to mingle.
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Even then, it might have some similarities? We've seen guilds amicably split to specialize on separate aspects of a single profession, most recently the shipbuilding guild splitting into one specializing in deep sea-going construction as opposed to riverine and shallow water ships. Even before that, though, there would have been dwarves specializing in one or the other, and the guildmaster would have been educated in one type of specialization or the other. Effectively, the Colleges are like a combination of a guild pre-split, and one that's already split apart.
 
The fact of the matter is that Sylvania is a gaping wound upon the face of the planet, deeply polluted by magic nuclear waste and regularly spawning armies horrible monsters. This situation is completely incomparable to anything IRL.

What we know is that Stirlanders and Sylvanians have a long shared history with more migration from Sylvania to Stirland every generation. They also have a shared religion (which is all about wrecking the undead and drowning people), a shared language, and we haven't seen any in-story indication that you can tell them apart on site unless one of them is an actual Necromancer or something. Locals can probably do so thanks to accents or clothes, but even that is just a guess.
I don't anticipate massive issues with the occupation of Eastern Stirland, apart from burghers complaining about paying taxes in gold instead of peasant blood. And as long as we can give locals safety from wandering undead, I'm sure the locals will appreciate our rule just like they appreciated whoever this month's vampire overlord was.
I'd expect our biggest problems to be from Necromancers, vampire plotters, the local area being full of undead and struggling to support any kind of population, and perhaps from people who just don't want to pay taxes when they used to be able to kill a peasant or two every so often.

If a few locals have to pay more taxes to keep the armies of the dead from pouring out and slaughtering the living every other generation, then all I have to say is "suck to be Sylvanian". If their culture is so deeply interlinked with necromancy that they can no longer endure vampire-slaying, then maybe they should rethink some aspects of their culture. At some point you can't get away with enabling the murder of innocents just because it's traditional. There's no way people are going to accept living next to a dripping pile of nuclear waste just because the neighbor's culture requires regular radiation poisoning for all. And if they were not, in fact, enthusiastically supporting their vampiric overlords (as suggested by the local religion Kasmir was researching), then they'll probably be happy to have Knights of Morr wrecking undead face in the area!
Although different Imperial provinces do seem to have rivalries and tensions, so if we bring in a bunch fo Sigmar supremacists from Altdorf the locals probably won't like them much. Just because I don't think Stirlanders and Sylvanian are completely incompatible doesn't mean there can't be tensions between Imperials and those who have spent the last few centuries living under the rule of various vampires.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
They're eight different Guilds covering subjects that are broadly similar in the sense that woodworking, leatherworking, stoneworking, and blacksmithing are all about shaping materials, but are entirely different, and use different and incompatible methods. No one above the rank of Apprentice ever moves from one Guild to the next. They're just eight different guilds, because there are eight different Winds.
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Indeed. The terminology used for Mathilde and other wizards suggests that dwarves (in the quest, at minimum) already understand the colleges in exactly this way. Because for example Mathilde's College-based rank in Khazalid (once you filter for the part where Khazalid doesn't have a word for "wizard" per se) isn't "master wizard" it's "master user of shadow magic." Or technically we started getting called something like "foremost user of shadow magic" post-LM upgrade, but that's because the dwarves are iffy on the internal structure of the Colleges and where exactly the K8P wizards fit into them and something slightly more modest would be more apt. I'm disappearing into the weeds a bit there.

Anyway, Boney did a post specifically on this a while back, so if anybody wants to give it a gander just click the part that's a link:
BoneyM said:
Dwarf Words for Wizards
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Simon_Jester said:
That topmost position is the only confusing part, if you present the eight Colleges to a dwarf as being eight separate Guilds that handle different Winds that aren't supposed to mingle.
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And not really, IMO. You can explain it like this: the Supreme Patriarch is akin to the Loremaster in a sense, not in that they necessarily have to fill the Loremaster role on a council, but in that their role is fundamentally political in nature rather than integrated directly into any guild's internal structure (though it can only be filled by someone who IS integrated into a guild's structure, and is ranked highly there). Because the zhuf-guilds are important enough to require coordination even as they spend most of their time on their own crafts, and they're weird specialized enough that they can only really be effectively coordinated by somebody who is actually a part of one of those guilds and really understands the nature of the work. The role is there to cover the question of "who reports to the King on zhuf stuff, and who has concentrated authority over those elements of zhuf that all the Guilds hold in common, and who has the power to direct things when multiple zhuf-related guilds must work together." And the position is filled by regular contests of skill to see who currently is the most skilled out of any of the Guilds because who would respect the direction of a lesser crafter, which is a sensibility that seems very much in line with dwarven psychology IMO.
 
picklepikkl said:
We know there was extensive contact between the two in quest canon, because enough Nehekharans banked with Karak Eight Peaks that we can build a numismatic history of three successive dynasties from the examples in the Grand Urbaz.
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Incidentally, there was a king of Lybaras who was a foundling adopted by the currently-barren queen who was definitely not a dwarf.

Rhupesh leapt down from the chariot and stalked towards Gotrek. They were of a similar size, though Felix judged that, were Rhupesh alive, Gotrek would have proven the heavier. The tomb-king bumped his ribcage against Gotrek's barrel chest and said, 'Tiny I called thee, and tiny thou art.'
Gotrek leaned forward. 'You speak hard words, for a dead man.'
'I am no man. I am a king,' Rhupesh barked. The two were almost nose to nose.
'And I am a Slayer,' Gotrek growled.
Felix looked back and forth between them. He leaned towards Zabbai. 'He's – ah – he's quite short, for a king. And broad,' he said hesitantly.
'He is the Son of the Ox and Asp,' Zabbai said. 'He was found in a basket of rushes, delivered to Lybaras as a gift of the gods.'
'Right, right, but his general shape is…' Felix trailed off.
'The weight of his divine strength has but reduced his stature.'
'Are you sure?' Felix asked, wondering how to phrase the question he dearly wanted to ask.

(RIP in-thread, Gotrek.)
 
Honestly, I am now more interested in going to the Border Princes than before, because it would be really fun, after going to hell, to go bully some sub 10 martial bandits (that should be their score if Mathilde could take 5 border princes solo)
 
storryeater said:
Honestly, I am now more interested in going to the Border Princes than before, because it would be really fun, after going to hell, to go bully some sub 10 martial bandits (that should be their score if Mathilde could take 5 border princes solo)
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Remember this?

BoneyM said:
2. Low Expectations: With most good candidates finding somewhere less... Stirland-y... to practice their trade, incompetence is expected and competence will be considered greatness.
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I'd imagine the Border Princes would have an even more extreme version. There'd certainly be exceptions, but on the whole anyone capable of leaving would have already left, and anyone who decides to come in from somewhere else to set up their own kingdom is likely doing so for lack of better options.

An intrigue of 12 was considered sufficient to be fully qualified to be the spymaster of all of Stirland. I'm going to go out on a limb and posit that the average 'advisor' in the BP would be lucky to break double digits in their field.
 
The problem with the region is not so much the couple of kinda-strong Border Princes as it is that you have a dozen problems that could jump you on any given day and no karak to hide in if several decide to jump you at once.

It's K8P Blood Bowl II: Electric Bugaloo, except there's no bowl... but still plenty of blood. Remember these guys?

And greenskins?"

"Bloody Spear Night Goblins in the mountains, Black Spider Forest Goblins in the Forest of Gloom to the north, Iron Claw Orcs in the plains to the south. But the lands around the Howling River seem to be too far from any of their population centers for them to be more than a nuisance."

A nuisance by Dwarven standards could be considered quite threatening by others.
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The better the fight, the more likely they are to show up.

"Mostly flat, growing hilly as you approach the mountains. The river itself is fresh and wholesome, though too fast for fishing on any scale. The soil is thin but there are still those that manage to coax crops out of it, and the grasses are sufficient to graze herds on if you can protect them. There's minable quantities of iron ores in the foothills, and every now and then gold flecks are found in the Howling River, though we've never managed to find the source. There's supposedly ruins of some sort in the area, but they say the same of everywhere in the region."
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Oh man, it would be so sweet if we could do this and convince Johann to come in on it too. You know our boy could find that gooooooooold!
 
Catpetter1981 said:
Never forget that Anton's Diplomacy of 4 (iirc) and Luck of 9,001 was considered adequate to be the Head of Foreign Affairs for Stirland.
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It was 2, as I recall- but it wasn't considered adequate, he was the 'incompetent' advisor.

That is, he was even incompetent by Stirland standards- Mathilde actually brought up to Abel pretty early on that he was entirely unsuited to the position, and he agreed.
 
[190] Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
[166] Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
[144] Governor-General of Swamp Town
MAYBE
[131] Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
[131] Spymaster of Wissenland

Thinking about how we get the remaining briefings. Heidi and SWAMP TOWN are probably both solved by a visit to the Imperial Palace, and Spymaster as well if that turns out to be written up. Markgraf will be a visit to Roswita directly, and of course Belegar would be the one to pitch on Loremaster-at-Large.
 
GrimTheMad said:
It was 2, as I recall- but it wasn't considered adequate, he was the 'incompetent' advisor.
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BoneyM said:
Anton was supposed to be incompetent, but he keeps rolling crits. He started with a 4 in diplomacy! I spent time worrying about whether I was unduly crippling Stirland by having a deadweight Chancellor that couldn't be axed without alienating vassals! This turn isn't even the first time he's rolled a natural 100.
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Briefvoice said:
Oh man, it would be so sweet if we could do this and convince Johann to come in on it too. You know our boy could find that gooooooooold!
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Also true for Sylvania, don't forget. We found gold in Drakenhof.
 
Fayhem said:
I was just making the point that even IF you just had had had to force such a lens onto things then colonialism is still a worse fit by far than any number of others. But "let's just not" is an even better alternative, so yes please.
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The "lets not" isn't because of discomfort. It's because I can't counter, compare, or contrast your argument without getting into some specific real life stuff. Talking about colonialism in general is no worse than talking about feudalism, peasant revolts, Viking raiders, nomadic war camps, religious zealotry, forced conscription and all kinds of other events that have plagued our history. All stuff we've discussed in thread because they are directly relevant to our landholding friends, Ranald, encounters with Norscans and Kurgan, Sigmarite transgressions, the Warhammer military system and so on. But when you say something akin to "it's like the post cold war reunification of Germany" you open a whole can of worms about how the SED is or isn't like vampires and NATO is or isn't like a Holy Roman Empire with magical powers and any attempts to clarify your analogy will quickly spiral completely off topic. The former SED members are literally still sitting in the German parliament for instance. Are we going to compare Ostalgie with Vampire loyalism?

Also, I haven't really defended or attacked any of our options here due to modern standard moral implications. At most I pointed out how they aren't exactly things Mathilde would consider.
Briefvoice said:
Heidi and SWAMP TOWN are probably both solved by a visit to the Imperial Palace,
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I'm curious if there will be any dialogue dedicated to telling Heidi how we don't think we are interested in becoming High Priestess.
 
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storryeater said:
Good thing we are explicitly given permission to hide in a Karak by taking the job, then.
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Other hilarious alternative. When the Waaagh! shows up, Mathilde casts Mockery of Death on her entire population, then hides and watches. Greenskins spend days boiling over in frustration that the humans are right there, but they can't touch them.

Yeah, don't but-actually me on the ability of shamans to cast dispel. I know. It's a funny image, though!
 
Briefvoice said:
Other hilarious alternative. When the Waaagh! shows up, Mathilde casts Mockery of Death on her entire population, then hides and watches. Greenskins spend days boiling over in frustration that the humans are right there, but they can't touch them.

Yeah, don't but-actually me on the ability of shamans to cast dispel. I know. It's a funny image, though!
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Hey, there's never any guarantee that a WAAAGH! would even have shamans, so with a bit of reconnaissance, this could very well work. :V
 
kingreaper said:
Wasn't that already being mined already? So probably wouldn't need Johan to find it.
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True, but we haven't heard Rosie mention it at all, so maybe there's been issues exploiting it which a Gold Wizard would be in a great position to help with. Shrug.
silentorphan said:
No mention of the Ambassador-at-Large to the Karaz Ankor? Since Mathilde would be operating under the authority of the Chamberlain of the Seal, that would probably also merit a visit to the Palace.
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Ambassador-at-Large didn't make the cutoff, so we won't be investigating it. It was top 5, possibly top 7.
picklepikkl said:
So, definitely:
  • The Waystone Project
  • Bodyguard and Tutor to Prince Mandred
  • Markgraf of Eastern Stirland
  • Border Princess of the Howling River
  • Governor-General of Swamp Town
and maybe also:
  • Loremaster-at-Large of Karak Eight Peaks
  • Spymaster of Wissenland
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