Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
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- At Home
If you look at the bottom of the page, just under the text box where you can write new posts, there's a button called 'New Tally'? You can find it there.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- USA
You can also find it in Thread Tools next to the Watch Thread button.
- Location
- Finland
That's, bit of an over simplification.
Belegar is, and has been, under lot of stress, there's probably a bit of a broken pedestal thing going on with Thorgrim, cultural clash what with all the umgi aid and so little (relatively) dawi aid, Thorgrim being less that sensitive with his word choices, the letter was something of last straw, and then Belegar learned that, when he was feeling good about getting one over Thorgrim, that possible Thorgrim was getting one over him instead.
Like, i think Belegar is wrong and not thinking straight, but he has reasons for it, one of those reasons being that Thorgrim, for reasons we are probably not fully understanding, chooses to keep the "waystone network keeps dwarves alive" thing, also that while rest of Karaz Ankor is looking at the dwarves waning away, Thorgrim has had the end on their species marked on his calendar, and the date is not that far away (relatively speaking).
It's a fucking mess and we, in character, lack the puzzle pieces to put it together. Hopefully we can guide us to somesort of positive outcome, or atleast not catastrophic one with the out of character knowledge we have, but we'll see how it goes.
Possibly the whole Okral and (maybe) Marienburg situation has made everyone, including Belegar, too busy to get angry about anything else (hopefully without setting Marienburg, or anything else, on fire in the process).
Also, there's thread tools on the upper right that can be used to check the tally.
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There are 'Imperial' Dwarf Clans older than the Empire and some Major Holds, but Clans that aren't part of the Karaz Ankor don't count as Clans for Karaz Ankor purposes. But it's not a judgey 'the Ancestor Gods disapprove of your lifestyle' thing, it's just how the Clan system works.
- Location
- Finland
So to over simplify it.
There is Karaz Ankor is a big circle.
Inside that Circle are smaller circles that are holds.
And inside those smaller circles there are tiny circles that are the clans.
So while there might be tiny circles (clans) outside the big circle (Karaz Ankor), they are not part of the system and therefore don't really matter to most Karaz Ankor politics or traditions?
How do guilds work?
So far my understanding is that for the most part, each hold has their own guild (engineers, book binders, scribes, smiths, miners, runesmiths, etc...), and that guild is mostly a single clan, but also part of an overarching guild that encompasses whole of Karaz Ankor.
How wrong am i?
- Location
- Greece
See, that is part of the reason why people like the Dawi culture of Karaz Ankor more than the Elgi culture of Ulthuan. Dawi of Karaz Ankor may be, depending on how one can measure pride (this word can mean so many different things, some of which aren't bad, it is criminal) more proud than the Elgi of Ulthuan. But they do not go out of their way to judge you and/or rub it in, they just... keep to themselves.
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Descendants of the surface dwarf settlements that were destroyed either by enemy action or climate change during the Time of Woe?
That's one way to put it.
Most Guilds aren't single-Clan. They might be dominated by one Clan, but that's not required and it doesn't preclude anyone outside the Clan from joining it. They're the organization of all the crafters of a particular type in a particular hold, and their purpose is to handle things like apprenticeships, standardization, best practices, anything that needs handling. There's not really an organization level above a Hold's Guild, you could refer to all the Guilds of one type collectively but they're more of a network than a heirarchy.
Runesmiths don't work like other Guilds, they're a Clan and a Cult as well.
No, they were free to migrate to the surviving Holds. The Clans outside the Karaz Ankor are the Clans that deliberately left it.
That's interesting, because I had gotten the impression that the Engineering Guild(s) had a stronger inter-Hold organization than that. I guess it's just a strong-than-normal network?
Does that mean that Gotri can basically do whatever the hell he wants engineering-wise, and the only limitation is getting his own engineers to go along with it and maybe a fear that the other engineering guilds will stop talking to him? Or is K8P still considered kind of a 'branch office' of Zhufbar? Or actually, Gotri is probably too young to be "Guildmaster" even if he is "Sky Thane" and in practice Belegar turns to Gotri whenever he needs engineering things done.
Engineering Guilds seem complicated because for most professions the base unit is the "workshop" (a master and his assistants), but big engineering projects may require the coordination of dozens or even hundreds of engineers (for something like an ironclad steam ship) and that requires a lot stronger authority to keep everyone organized and on task.
They do, it's just not a hierarchical relationship. Dwarf egos would guarantee it would get ugly in a hurry if one Hold's Guild had to be selected to be in charge of all the others. Plus until gyrocopters communication lag could be in the realm of months from Hold to Hold, that's not really conducive to top-down organization.
He's the Grandmaster and (re)founder of the K8P Engineers Guild, but if he goes too bonkers he'll start getting pressure from the other Engineers Guild to pull it in, and if he doesn't then it'll get escalated to the level of Kings talking to Kings.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
That's the source of this misunderstanding that happened on our most recent real turn, right?
From the Dwarf perspective, the Altdorf Wizard's Guild is weird that's it's in charge of all Wizards, and all Wizards have to be part of the Altdorf guild no matter what hold they're currently residing in, and their status in the Altdorf guild is usually more important than their status in the local guild, because of manling foolishness. Is that roughly correct?
(Of course, if you try explaining the real structure to the dwarves: "there's actually eight separate Wizard's Guilds, and they're all in Altdorf, and they're independent from one another except in the ways that they aren't, and one Grandmaster from one of them gets to be in charge of all of them, but they maintain their own internal structures and Guild secrets," well... it would be a patient Dwarf indeed who sat through the whole explanation without grumbling at you. You'd probably get more mileage from analogizing it to how different dwarf holds manage their own affairs but are all sworn to the High King, and they'd understand the structure better, but they'd still think organizing guilds along those lines is a damn fool thing to do.)
Welcome to the front lines! Don't worry; you missed the vote for which jobs to investigate more, but soon we'll have the vote on which job to actually take, and that one is an even bigger deal.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
On one hand yes, on the other hand dwarves literally use the same word for humans as they do "shoddy craftmanship". And your average Imperial citizen is much more likely to run into a Dawi than they are an Asur.
I think a bigger difference is that a dwarf is much more inclined to place their pride in their institutions and clans. An elf tends to be individually
- Location
- Greece
Yeah, but most humns do not know that. Arguably, non linguist Dawi haven't researched the root of that word that much either.
Dwarves have a whole bunch of words to distinguish what one is a Grandmaster of, whether it's a Guild-appointed rank, and whether they're in a leadership position. There's a bunch of different Grandmaster-equivalent words that would be technically correct, and a few more that are understandable misunderstandings about Wizarding heirarchy.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I do wonder if Dwarfs called the Nehekharans something different, and if so, what.
Like, every source makes it clear that the Dwarfs called the men who would settle the Reik Basin Umgi after encountering some of their craftsmanship, but they would have been interacting with Nehekhara millennia before that.
Like, every source makes it clear that the Dwarfs called the men who would settle the Reik Basin Umgi after encountering some of their craftsmanship, but they would have been interacting with Nehekhara millennia before that.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
I can get humans who don't work too closely with Dawi not getting it, but my understanding was that the linguistic relationship between "umgi" and "umgak" is about as well hidden as the one between "human" and "humane".
- Location
- Greece
Or man and human. Or male and female.
Wait...
Those aren't actually etymologically related.
Ain't language awesome.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
If anything, that just makes it more likely that the non-linguistically inclined people would think the two terms are linked.
- Location
- Australia
The Colleges' structure is similar to the Empire's. Instead of having multiple provinces swearing under one emperor who themselves have a province, it's multiple guilds swearing under one grandmaster who themselves have a guild.
- Location
- Greece
Well... fair.
But I also have to add that, although the etymology of human and humane is linked, the meaning isn't really. Humans can act monstrously just as often as they can act humanely.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
And the meaning between "umgi" and "umgak" isn't linked either, as humans can in fact produce lasting and quality work.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Nehekhara was cool and all, but they were also effectively a Bronze Age civilization. I doubt the Dwarfs thought too much better of them, even if their Constructs and buildings were neat.
- Location
- Greece
That's my point exactly.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Sure, but every source I've seen says that Dwarfs started calling humans Umgi then. So they didn't earlier?
(Honestly, I think the trouble is that there aren't many sources that acknowledge that the Dwarfs and Nehekhara must have had contact of some sort)
13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
I mean, by the time Nehekhara was around the word umgi had probably already been used for humans for thousands of years. And Dwarfs are not ones to embrace change when they don't have to, and also often even when they do have to.