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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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kingreaper said:
Taking over a region is either done by conquest
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...This already happened, though? Like the reason there's any discussion about Matty being markgraf at all is because Stirland came through and killed any vampires, necromancers, and direct enablers of vampires and necromancers, which happened to also be almost everyone in a local position of power. The conquest already happened, what we'd be doing is working on the rebuilding and ensuring the previous powers don't see a resurgence. And yes, that can be a step in colonization, but also the people here were literally ruled by vampires who ate them. I'd expect the average peasant when given the choice between "an unassailably powerful mage who doesn't eat people, or one that does and is also immortal" would generally prefer the former.

The fact that we're actually trying to improve the general quality of life, allow them more say in how they're governed (if only because they're already at absolute rock bottom), and judging by thread interest in Kasimir's ideas about the flood god, supporting local indigenous culture and beliefs after the vampires spent however long suppressing them means that the comparisons to colonialism don't really fit? Or at least, the implications of calling it that don't align well with the reality of what the thread is likely to vote for.
 
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Mopman43 said:
Mathilde just on her own is a greater power when the other guys are Border Princes.


That was back when the expedition was finishing up and several personal upgrades ago.
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I see. I suppose I misunderstood the point.

In that case, let me put it this way: we can just do diplomacy non-threateningly. Like, roll up to Mirstadt, and, if the bandits seem reasonable enough, go "hey dudes, I happen to be extremely rich and extremely friendly with Dwarfs. If you give up banditry and work for me, I can promise you a bunch of money, Dwarf ale imports, and probably sanctuary in one of the Dwarf holds next time a Waaagh comes by. You know, because the Dwarfs love me so much, and I can vouch for you. It's cool if you aren't interested though."

Sure, they'll be a bit spooked, but it's like everyone will just assume we'll murder them if they refuse the work offer. And if diplomacy is unsuccessful, we can then try other approaches.
 
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Mopman43 said:
If we just have like, a cannon, I'm pretty sure there isn't a polity in the Border Princes that would be eager to mess with us.

Boney said Mathilde could topple the average Border Prince by herself... at the time the K8P expedition was finishing up.

This really isn't the place where I'm worried about the human foes.
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Now I'm tempted to vote for it just for that satisfying curbstomp.


BoneyM said:
Talk to them. Threaten them. Bribe them. Promise them prosperity. Give them a better occupation. I'm sure the thread can think of plenty more ways to approach the situation without doing a colonialism.
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Honestly we could just conquer a few Princes, use their armies and Barack Varr's backing and go wipe out some orcs/wait for them to come to us and then kill them all/other demonstration of force and ability to protect our subjects.

With that demonstration of power we then offer protection from the greenskins in exchange for giving up some autonomy and tithing money/manpower - basically, Rome style. Some cities did after all join the Romans because they wanted Roman protection/trade and not because Rome conquered them. If a Prince refuses, arrange a convenient accident, and make the same offer to the replacement/annex the city and have the people of that town elect their own leader by giving them an option of candidates who support becoming our protectorate/outright appoint a puppet governor.

It'd be more complicated than that ofc, but that's the basics of how we could do it without full-on European style colonialism.
 
Rafin said:
Well, a local ruler would be more closely tied to the local culture and social strata.
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If we're discussing Sylvania the "local ruler" would also, statistically, be a vampire. Who eats people, commits necromancy for fun and profit, and deliberately spreads Dhar (the magical equivalent of uncontained nuclear waste, if nuclear waste could create zombies, turn people into monsters instead of just turning them into people but with cancer, and be used to fuel evil and exclusively evil magic).

Seriously. If people really, really, really want a historical analogue for the ethics of ruling Sylvania, I'd suggest the comparison to try would be "occupation of post-Nazi Germany." Or considering that Sylvania used to be a recognized part of the Empire, arguably the post-Cold War reunification of East and West Germany, to keep it in the same neighborhood.
 
Darth. said:
Honestly we could just conquer a few Princes, use their armies and Barack Varr's backing and go wipe out some orcs/wait for them to come to us and then kill them all/other demonstration of force and ability to protect our subjects.

With that demonstration of power we then offer protection from the greenskins in exchange for giving up some autonomy and tithing money/manpower - basically, Rome style. Some cities did after all join the Romans because they wanted Roman protection/trade and not because Rome conquered them. If a Prince refuses, arrange a convenient accident, and make the same offer to the replacement/annex the city and have the people of that town elect their own leader by giving them an option of candidates who support becoming our protectorate/outright appoint a puppet governor.

It'd be more complicated than that ofc, but that's the basics of how we could do it without full-on European style colonialism.
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The average army of a Border Prince is like, 20 sheepherders pretending to be men at arms. Thats why i am so dubious to actual viability of the plan. We need to draw in mercenaries without constantly bleeding gold like a Pegasus, so we need at least basic logistical chain which means agriculture and smithing, which needs protection to work which needs more people which needs more agriculture and just ugh.

Too many troubles. There is honestly no issue of collonialism to be brought up. Border Princes are barren wasteland ruled mostly by princes who bought the place 20 days ago.

EDIT: Apparently Akendorf was the greatest singular Border Prince polity by the day of Karl Franz. It had less than thousand people. Just, fuck. I know that Warhammer populations are shit numberwise but still.
 
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Right, I'm apparently in the dizzy phase of a migraine, was in the pain-phase earlier, so I have neither the willpower to completely ignore the many responses I'm getting post-Boney's request, nor the wherewithall to give them full attention. So here are some short responses

adaer said:
...This already happened, though?
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The person in charge of enforcing the conquering polity's laws after they take over, who is a member of said polity, and who was part of the original action against the conquered polity, would generally be considered a conqueror.

(EDIT: If it wasn't for the fact we know that a significant portion of the population are unhappy with the change in leadership, and many of the rest uncaring, I'd call it liberation. But as is - it's complicated, and not the sort of place to go if you're unhappy with the idea of being an outsider in charge through threat of violence.)

adaer said:
The fact that we're actually trying to improve the general quality of life, more say in how they're governed (if only because they're already at absolute rock bottom), and judging by thread interest in Kasimir's ideas about the flood god, supporting local indigenous culture and beliefs after the vampires spent however long suppressing them means that the comparisons to colonialism don't really fit? Or at least, the implications of calling it that don't align well with the reality of what the thread is likely to vote for.
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Again: I'm not the one who decided to bring up colonialism. And when it was brought up I stuck with Sylvania being Conquest.

Rafin said:
Well, I hope the guys doing banditry in Mad Dog Pass are average. @BoneyM Would it fall under "doing a colonialism" if we abduct a Border Prince and take over through a mix of intrigue, diplomacy and threats without military backup?
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Boney also isn't the one who decided to bring up colonialism, and has made it clear that they would really rather that the discussion of the concept be cut out.

Klaus said:
That's how laws normally work, yes, though "get arrested" and "pay fines" are usually in that list too. This is the exact same treatment that people already living in the empire receive.

When medieval Gallic nobles and Holy Roman Empire nobles fight over some piece of territory, that isn't "colonialism" just because the laws change depending on who wins.
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It is, however, conquest. Which was what I explicitly called out as the alternative way to take over some occupied land.
 
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Jyn Ryvia said:
'The argument about the border princes and ethics of taking over.'

Dudes: the relationship between a border prince and those they rule is social contact theory at its most Hubbs.

you protect them from the orcs, goblins, and roaming bandits and they will be happy to pay your taxes.

just as they will be happy to do the same with our killer, and your killers killers after: with basically no change in their daily life.


ya, its different with the cruellest/kindest of the princes and their people. but generally, we protect them dn aren't cruel to them they are happy to pay the tax as long as it's not ridiculous,

hell we will be an upgrade more often than not.

there is a lot of things that worry me about the border prince job: mistreating the non-fighters was not one of them.

hell, I would be less surprised if they actually thing Mathy is to much of a bleeding heart for the job.
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Are we going full fantasy in this situation? Because in IRL situations where warlords or feudal rulers change control of a piece of land in rapid succession the life of local farmers is really shitty. We're talking raising forced conscription again and again from the local population, making examples out of people at your borders that show loyalty to the guys on the other side of the border, appropriation of food by invading or retreating armies, appropriation of food by lords worried about short term sieges more than about long term prosperity, appropriation of anything valuable in so that lords can keep the loyalty of more fickle followers, general pillaging and worse that Human forces with low discipline and undiagnosed PTSD have been participating in throughout history... And all of this constantly.

One reason to import our own military instead of going in on our own and displacing a local Border Prince through personal skill and power is that we have a higher chance of being able to apply the Dwarven sensibilities we learned and clamp down behavior of our (preferably professional mercenary) troops that we don't want to be responsible for.
Klaus said:
and we ARE more deserving to rule.
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We are not. Feudalism is bad. But for the purpose of this quest it is perfectly fine to play a character that honestly believes that taking on the mantle of feudal ruler over a people that were historically oppressed by vampires is a good thing.
Fayhem said:
If we're discussing Sylvania the "local ruler" would also, statistically, be a vampire.
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I was still on the Border Princes train.


Fayhem said:
Seriously. If people really, really, really want a historical analogue for the ethics of ruling Sylvania, I'd suggest the comparison to try would be "occupation of post-Nazi Germany." Or considering that Sylvania used to be a recognized part of the Empire, arguably the post-Cold War reunification of East and West Germany, to keep it in the same neighborhood.
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Let's not. Even if I weren't German I would rather not try to start an argument on how a real life event with people who still remember it is similar or different from a feudal power fighting vampiric enemies.
 
Alternatively to the Rome idea, conquer ourselves a good powerbase, get some good candidates to elevate as Princes and consolidate the borderlands under them with those Princes then being our Elector-Princes. Basically a Sigmar's Empire in miniature. If anyone reads PGTE, basically Procer.

It lets us heavily delegate once everything is set up and once we're reasonably sure our absence won't tear everything apart - maybe with Barack Varr's/Imperial aid, we can abdicate and go do something else.
 
tapkomet said:
I see. I suppose I misunderstood the point.

In that case, let me put it this way: we can just do diplomacy non-threateningly. Like, roll up to Mirstadt, and, if the bandits seem reasonable enough, go "hey dudes, I happen to be extremely rich and extremely friendly with Dwarfs. If you give up banditry and work for me, I can promise you a bunch of money, Dwarf ale imports, and probably sanctuary in one of the Dwarf holds next time a Waaagh comes by. You know, because the Dwarfs love me so much, and I can vouch for you. It's cool if you aren't interested though."

Sure, they'll be a bit spooked, but it's like everyone will just assume we'll murder them if they refuse the work offer. And if diplomacy is unsuccessful, we can then try other approaches.
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honestly, there is a large assumption here that a bandit prince and his man are going to be the types we would want in our armed forces.

I'm much more up for 'Look, I'm here to lower attacks on travels through mad dog pass, and I've been given the money and men to do so. I'm not lying when I say that your source of income has just dried up. I'm happy to give you the time to move on or find a new area of income, no fight. but if you do start doing your thing going forward, I'm going to be doing my job.'
 
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pucflek said:
The average army of a Border Prince is like, 20 sheepherders pretending to be men at arms. Thats why i am so dubious to actual viability of the plan.
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That's more because they don't have the gold to have a standing army. And I don't mean we conquer the weakest border princes, I meant we conquer some of the strongest - who have armies in the low thousands - using a coup/just popping over to their keep, killing them, and telling their subordinates to get in lie or die. Then slowly replacing/assassinating them until we can fill the positions with our candidates - they don't have to be loyal, they just have to be ambitious enough to do what they're told in exchange for rewards/promotions long enough for us to either win their loyalty or recruit better people or just let battle attrition take its toll.
 
Darth. said:
Alternatively to the Rome idea, conquer ourselves a good powerbase, get some good candidates to elevate as Princes and consolidate the borderlands under them with those Princes then being our Elector-Princes. Basically a Sigmar's Empire in miniature.
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A great many princes who hail from the Empire have tried to emulate that system. Occasionally, those places only collapse into civil war after the prince who instituted the system died.
 
pucflek said:
The average army of a Border Prince is like, 20 sheepherders pretending to be men at arms. Thats why i am so dubious to actual viability of the plan. We need to draw in mercenaries without constantly bleeding gold like a Pegasus, so we need at least basic logistical chain which means agriculture and smithing, which needs protection to work which needs more people which needs more agriculture and just ugh.

Too many troubles. There is honestly no issue of collonialism to be brought up. Border Princes are barren wasteland ruled mostly by princes who bought the place 20 days ago.

EDIT: Apparently Akendorf was the greatest singular Border Prince polity by the day of Karl Franz. It had less than thousand people. Just, fuck. I know that Warhammer populations are shit numberwise but still.
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Oookay. I will need information by BoneyM on this. If it is quest canon then I am completely uninterested in the Border Princes. Having to nation build by encouraging mass migration and/or uniting literal sheep villages is not what I hoped for. I was expecting at least something like walled towns with populations approaching a thousand being an occasional occurence. If our capital is going to start out the size of our current Shadowkeep in Sonnigwiese then count me out.
 
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Sir_Travelsalot said:
A great many princes who hail from the Empire have tried to emulate that system. Occasionally, those places only collapse into civil war after the prince who instituted the system died.
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I'm aware. This time however we have a large dwarf hold and possibly even the empire itself willing to do some foreign intervention to keep things stable. Or we can literally appoint an heir who is powerful enough to keep them in line and occasionally return to squash the pests until the message sinks in.
 
Rafin said:
Oookay. I will need information by BoneyM on this. If it is quest canon then I am completely uninterested in the Border Princes. Having to nation build by encouraging mass migration and/or uniting literal sheep villages is not what I hoped for. I was expecting at least something like walled towns with populations approaching a thousand being an occasional occurence. If our capital is going to start out the size of our current Shadowkeep in Sonnigwiese then I'm completely uninterested.
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I mean, the cannon is entirely fucky population numbers wise. The Empire could never work if the numbers given were actually true. But InCanon,border princes are honestly just bunch of hamlets ruled by mayors pretending to be lord to be something they are not. So idk.
 
Rafin said:
That's more like it.
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The crack about sheepherders was an exaggeration, but based on truth; the Free Companies and smaller bands of mercenaries tend to be the closest thing to professional soldiers in the region. In fact, principalities ruled over by a mercenary captain who decided to enact a coup on their employer are some of the most common around.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
The crack about sheepherders was an exaggeration, but based on truth; the Free Companies and smaller bands of mercenaries tend to be the closest thing to professional soldiers in the region. In fact, principalities ruled over by a mercenary captain who decided to enact a coup on their employer are some of the most common around.
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I mean, in fairness, the opening to Renegade Crowns is someone watching about a dozen guys brawling and then being told that's the local lords and their retinues.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
The crack about sheepherders was an exaggeration, but based on truth; the Free Companies and smaller bands of mercenaries tend to be the closest thing to professional soldiers in the region. In fact, principalities ruled over by a mercenary captain who decided to enact a coup on their employer are some of the most common around.
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That's fine. As long as there is actually something like a population base and not us having to go from extended family farmstead to extended family farmstead to make our rule known or literally having to build our capital from scratch at day one in order to project power.
 
Rafin said:
Oookay. I will need information by BoneyM on this. If it is true then I am completely uninterested in the Border Princes. Having to nation build by encouraging mass migration and/or uniting literal sheep villages is not what I hoped for. I was expecting at least something like walled towns with populations approaching a thousand being an occasional occurence. If our capital is going to start out the size of our current Shadowkeep in Sonnigwiese then I'm completely uninterested.
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being meta:

The howling River is going to be 15 generic towns and villages, Zeres, Mirstadt, whatever Fatandira was/will be called and whatever we call the base where Vitrolle will be in the future because there is no way the thread is not going to place a fortress there in the future. and a pointless to count number of farms.

and while people joke about it a lot, the border princes aren't that low in population. its just that (like Knights of the Grail) RC is the RPG at its most memey.

will Boeny use the information from it? yes, but just like Knights of the Grail, they aren't going to take it as gospel. because you really cant if your playing a non-meme game.

the populations in the book just don't make sense. (and contradict its own 1000 + 3d10x100 people rule) I expect a lot of changes in that area.
 
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