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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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The Teclisean 8 Winds model is clearly a powerful model that explains a lot.

It also clearly has some spots where it's wrong.

Its the best model we have availiable, but it's definitely also wrong and will hopefully eventually be superceeded by a more complete explanation.

In other words I think @Briefvoice is correct.
 
BurnNote said:
The eight winds are probably the closest to a 'true' model, because they're the intended mode, as created by the Old Ones and practiced by the Slann. Of course, that also got fucked when the polar gates went poof, so unintended modes turn up. The elemental style probably falls under that, Gods might.

How magic 'really' operates is a question best asked to the dragons, because they can still remember the time before it got fucked with. Winds weren't a thing then, so they're not the default, but that dragons have such an affinity suggest that they're probably not that far from the actual functioning.
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That's actually wrong, the eight winds are what exists because the polar gates blew up, before then the polar gates were probably channeling something more akin to AV around the geomantic web, with the first generation Slann manipulating said substance directly. After all the Eight winds are what is created when the Aeyther intrudes into reality.
 
Silver719 said:
So anyways I just watched a couple lore videos about WHF and when do we start investing in the Bank of Gork and Mork?
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We had a vote to do so back in Year 2478, but unfortunately people didn't vote for it.

So you need to convince the thread to accept socially unacceptable energies entering Mathilde after they've already rejected it once, and trust me when I say that that's going to be an uphill battle.
 
DragonParadox said:
I don't think we can access the papers of the Elementalists and we certainly don't have access to the fundamentals of their magic.
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I actually really doubt that? Significant part of Elementalists migrated to the Colleges, and likely there are some people that still do so. Not to mention that Elementalists have been around based on the same theory, built from alchemical theory (Alchemists are tied to Gold Order nowadays), for more than a millenium.

I think the reason why their books are not around is that Collegiate considers them bunch of ineffectual quacks whose opinion on just about anything has no value whatsoever. I think we could swing books without stealing them, they just wouldn't be very helpful, probably.

Its like todays astronomist reading medieval treatises claiming that Earth is the center of the universe.
 
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Rereading the Gork and Mork heist scene makes me want to know what BoneyM would have done if we'd rolled a natural 100 for that piety survival roll. I imagine that'd be a hell of a balcony moment.


pucflek said:
I actually really doubt that? Significant part of Elementalists migrated to the Colleges, and likely there are some people that still do so. Not to mention that Elementalists have been around based on the same theory, built from alchemical theory (Alchemists are tied to Gold Order nowadays), for more than a millenium.

I think the reason why their books are not around is that Collegiate considers them bunch of ineffectual quacks whose opinion on just about anything has no value whatsoever. I think we could swing books without stealing them, they just wouldn't be very helpful, probably.

Its like todays astronomist reading medieval treatises claiming that Earth is the center of the universe.
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Might still be interesting, if we can get their books I'd like to have a look we do have another batch of gold and likely our Borek debt is going to be waived, so it's not like we can't afford it.

To be honest though I suspect that their magical insights aren't available that easily.
 
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SuperSonicSound said:
That's actually wrong, the eight winds are what exists because the polar gates blew up, before then the polar gates were probably channeling something more akin to AV around the geomantic web, with the first generation Slann manipulating said substance directly. After all the Eight winds are what is created when the Aeyther intrudes into reality.
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Do they exist because the gates blew, or do they flow freely because the gates blew? Personally, the fact that non-dhar comes out at all, and that Slann are really good at winds indicates those are planned features. My theory would be that the normal operational output is qhaysh, which is a harmonized mix of winds (and the proportions of winds is dependant on the task), and the winds themselves are more like raw resources. The gate blowing up destroyed complicated and fragile mixing, but the more robust separation was unaffected.

Another factor is that AV naturally separates into the eight winds, even in a magic isolated environment. Now, the gate blowing could've globally changed the environment to make it so, but the simpler theory is that it's just a fairly normal process.
 
My theory is that elementals are spirits crafted wholesale by the caster using a mix of an elemental perception base and their own assumptions. It's why elementals are all people-shaped. Bok isn't an elemental in the human tradition, but it is a crafted spirit.
 
HungryHamadryad said:
Chamberlain of the Seal again.
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?

Im aware of this, that's why I specifically mentioned that encounter in my post?
HungryHamadryad said:
so everyone finds something else to think about when the matter of Mathilde's theoretical oaths come up.
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This is a narrative choice by the GM. The big trade stuff going on with the eastern routes is a matter of narrative, different character from human merchants to dwarven kings are doing stuff and acting out their agency and the GM is writing a narrative around that. The MC has the ability to influence this, but they're not responsible for it. It's been a narrative choice for the GM to not explore the issue of divided loyalties as closely as they might have done and I'm wondering if this is a failing of the story's purpose or a conscious choice. I'm not saying the story 'should' be about one thing or another, I'm querying the observation that loyalties aren't divided much after the first arc.
 
BurnNote said:
Do they exist because the gates blew, or do they flow freely because the gates blew? Personally, the fact that non-dhar comes out at all, and that Slann are really good at winds indicates those are planned features. My theory would be that the normal operational output is qhaysh, which is a harmonized mix of winds (and the proportions of winds is dependant on the task), and the winds themselves are more like raw resources. The gate blowing up destroyed complicated and fragile mixing, but the more robust separation was unaffected.

Another factor is that AV naturally separates into the eight winds, even in a magic isolated environment. Now, the gate blowing could've globally changed the environment to make it so, but the simpler theory is that it's just a fairly normal process.
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Separation feature didn't survive unscathed - we have seen with our own eyes that besides pure Winds the gates pump out pretty thick stream of Dhar, it just grounds itself in the Wastes.
 
Also, just because the Teclisean 8 wind model can't explain the human elementalists, that doesn't mean the elementalists are necesarily right either.

It just means that a true model will return an answer within the margin of error of the teclisean model when in the teclisean wheelhouse, and an answer within the margin of error of the elementalist model when in the elementalist wheelhouse.
 
Aranfan said:
Also, just because the Teclisean 8 wind model can't explain the human elementalists, that doesn't mean the elementalists are necesarily right either.

It just means that a true model will return an answer within the margin of error of the teclisean model when in the teclisean wheelhouse, and an answer within the margin of error of the elementalist model when in the elementalist wheelhouse.
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Plus, "8 Winds as understood by humans", "8 Winds as understood by Elves" and "8 Winds pushed to it's limit" are different things. And it might not be so much wrong as missing parts.

As an analogue. Newtonian mechanics as taught in High School (3. Laws, mostly computing forces) and Newtonian mechanics as taught in university (Laplace formulation, focus on conservation of quantities) are quite different. They have the same explanatory power in principle, but the second makes things easier and reveals connections that are really hard to grasp otherwise.
Then there's something like Statisical Mechanics. You can deduce a lot if you take Newtonian mechanics and add a single idea (atoms).
And finally, there's some cases where Newtonian mechanics are just flat out wrong.

The elementalists could fit in any one of these cases. Maybe their stuff makes sense if you just understood your own theory better (though the elves have been at it long enough that I give this a low chance). Maybe you need to make some additional assumption for it to make sense. Or they could be an example where teclisian theory is just flat out wrong.
 
I suspect that the Teclis model will never really be replaced just expanded. While imperfect it does a great job at explaining how arcane magic works. A theoretical correct model will likely end up stealing large parts of Teclisean theory .
 
Deathbybunnies said:
ALGARD: Mathilde's a Magister in good standing. She knows where her loyalties lie, even if she is in deep with the Dwarves. Still, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to be completely sure - I'll make her a Lady Magister to ensure her ties remain strong. Let's see the Dwarves top that!

ANCESTOR COUNCIL: Mathilde is now a Dawi, and always has been.

ALGARD: Oh for-
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This seems to suggest that being a Dwarf trumps being a Lady Magister, and now Algard has to give up his seat as Patriarch if he wants to lure Mathilde back to the college
 
Unrelated question but does anybody know where I can read more about gilding? I seem to remember it being more than just Quest canon but I'm having a hard time finding anything.
 
Checking back in briefly- what's with all this argueing about the winds and elementalists?

We know that there is more to magic in this world than winds. Waaagh, for example, is not an engery that is either divine or wind-based. So it seems much more likely that winds might be the dominant magic, due to the gates, but the idea that this means all else *must* reduce down to winds is silly.

Why can't the elementalists have a completely different source and framework of power? I mean, WHF might have been written with the idea that all magic is winds but they tossed that out as soon as they brought in orcs and miracles.

Plus, what magic did the dragons use pre-gates?
 
Guile said:
This seems to suggest that being a Dwarf trumps being a Lady Magister, and now Algard has to give up his seat as Patriarch if he wants to lure Mathilde back to the college
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He's out of luck then, I don't think his seat is any fancier than ours.
BoneyM said:
"It's a secret, even to us," says Algard. "Ours to puzzle over, and ours to keep." You complete your circuit, and see an empty eighth chair in the circle surrounding you. "And now yours. Take a seat, Lady Magister Weber."

Without a moment's hesitation you do so, happiness and pride radiating through your body. You knew you might be close to earning it, but after the promotion to Magister you half-expected it to be a curt letter or something. But a circle of chairs in a secret pocket-dimension formed by Teclis? This is exactly the sort of thing you had hoped for. Part of the upholstery of the chair springs to life, throwing itself onto your robes and forming the ornamental trimmings that indicate a Wizard Lord of the Empire to those who know the patterns.
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And our office chair is a lot more private, with fewer attention-seeking busybodies dropping off some academic musing or other.
BoneyM said:
Her acceptance means you only spend most of the rest of the day hiding in the privacy of your dragon chair as you wait for your nervousness and embarrassment to abate. It's so much easier in the books.
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Also I'd note that there have been nearly a hundred pages of thread since the last threadmark, four days ago, which at 6 minutes a pages means that 10 of those 48 hours would be consumed just trying to keep up.

I feel bad for Boney trying to do that, AND write, AND respond to thread questions.
 
Aranfan said:
Also, just because the Teclisean 8 wind model can't explain the human elementalists, that doesn't mean the elementalists are necesarily right either.
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The elementalists would only not be right if they are proposing a grand theory of magic that says everything is actually elementalism. If the elementalists are merely saying "elementalism definitely works" than sorry the elementalists are straight up right.
 
Glau said:
We know that there is more to magic in this world than winds. Waaagh, for example, is not an engery that is either divine or wind-based. So it seems much more likely that winds might be the dominant magic, due to the gates, but the idea that this means all else *must* reduce down to winds is silly.
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Are we sure the Waaagh has no connection to the Winds whatsoever? It can be counterspelled and interact with the Winds. It's obviously not Wind magic, but it could be related. And you say it's not divine, but at least in quest cannon Gork and Mork can influence the Waaagh.
 
K von Carstein said:
Are we sure the Waaagh has no connection to the Winds whatsoever? It can be counterspelled and interact with the Winds. It's obviously not Wind magic, but it could be related. And you say it's not divine, but at least in quest cannon Gork and Mork can influence the Waaagh.
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Mathilde gave a lecture on the subject - it's not made purely of the winds, but nor is it divine in essence. It interacts with the winds, and it interacts with the divine (it's able to give targeting and entrance permission to Gork's Foot) but it's not exactly accurate to call it either of those things.

EDIT: the update with the lecture.
 
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