chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
Everybody's made promises and commitments to it, within and without the Karaz Ankor. When you pay Asarnil to do something, and he's interested enough to not price you out, you're doing it.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Greece
So... What if Marienburg did it... and then just goes "Scahp Goet acted outside our orders/intentions, we renounce him and everyone that took part on his mission, heres his head as proof we have allready executed him, his forces were mercs, that's all there is to say."?
Because Dwarfs have low enough intrigue to buy that, and are reasonable enough that they would not go after a polity that has denounced and prosecuted the villains, so the Marienburgers just get a free shot by dint of having planned this kind of negotiation beforehand, courtesy of the dawi on the council?
Now, If only I could see how shooting the Okral benefited them, that would be a smart play... Then again, it may be an accidental shot and they may still offer a scapegoat to get out of this...
Because Dwarfs have low enough intrigue to buy that, and are reasonable enough that they would not go after a polity that has denounced and prosecuted the villains, so the Marienburgers just get a free shot by dint of having planned this kind of negotiation beforehand, courtesy of the dawi on the council?
Now, If only I could see how shooting the Okral benefited them, that would be a smart play... Then again, it may be an accidental shot and they may still offer a scapegoat to get out of this...
Last edited:
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
... I wonder if he'd be willing to be hired again to deal with whoever did this shit when we get back, assuming they haven't already been stomped into the ground by then.
I'm fairly certain if we answer the question of "how do you know this" with "guild secrets", very few dwarves will continue that line of questioning. Might cast some doubt on the evidence though.
Last edited:
Sir_Travelsalot
Never wakes up tired.
- Location
- At Home
If they did this, they'd have had a free shot, yes. And guaranteed that they won't find anybody willing to do a second on their behalf, since all any mercenary worth their pay has to look forward to is getting scapegoated.
- Location
- Greece
But if it was an accident, they'll escape eradication.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Something else to keep in mind is that even if we find out who paid the bandits to do this, a large part of the Dwarven Grudge will still fall on the actual culprits. The Grudge will never be fulfilled even by razing Marienburg (or whoever) to the ground if we never find the bandits themselves.
Anyway, in order to combat the in my opinion pointless practicality arguments, I'll try to rephrase all the options into how I interpret them.
[ ] Remain here and guard the Okral
Adds Mathilde's capabilities directly to the defense. Follows Belegar's command in the most straight forward way possible. Also minimizes the risk Mathilde exposes herself to before such time that actual battle begins. Does nothing that only we can do. Probably mostly only an option for completion's sake.
[ ] Try to track the bandits
Increases the chance of finding the actual bandits. If successful allows for swift initial Vengeance in order to satisfy at least a part of Dwarven psychology. Partially increases our chances to finding the people who planned this scheme. Risks Mathilde if the bandits are more powerful than expected. Puts Mathilde the farthest from the Okral and makes her the least able to help them, should a second attack happen. Either defies Belegar or at least directly disagrees with his priorities and uses methods to convince him of why this is more important (example: offenders may repeat).
[ ] Scour the river banks for anything the bandits left behind
Increases the chance of finding out the who and how of the ambush. Partially increases the chances of finding the bandits later. Does the least to save lives in the short term, but can easily be excused as useful citing "Wizard Things". Remains relatively close.
[ ] Use Substance of Shadow to check the wrecked passenger ship for survivors
Saves Dwarven lives. Gives bonus to dice roll of VIPs to survive. Morally simple and good action. Mathilde uses magic to save lives directly for the first time. Some Dwarves owe life debt. Adds (close to) nothing to defense or future offense, except if we stumble upon some major evidence. Given that there are no trap options that will be a lower chance than finding evidence with the third option. Slight risk to Mathilde's life.
[ ] Scout for any approaching greenskin forces
Increases defense effectiveness. May delay enemy forces. May even stop enemy forces. May risk Mathilde. May miss ambush from another side if really unlucky
How likely achieving any of the above is ultimately depends on the dice. As are the chances of getting the final "good" results of any one action without doing the action in question (i.e minimal casualties, taking Vengeance, revealing the full conspiracy, finding the VIP alive, and destroying the second wave of attackers). But whatever we choose will definitely both massively affect our chances for any one outcome and have important narrative consequences when it comes to how Mathilde is seen by herself and others.
Anyway, in order to combat the in my opinion pointless practicality arguments, I'll try to rephrase all the options into how I interpret them.
[ ] Remain here and guard the Okral
Adds Mathilde's capabilities directly to the defense. Follows Belegar's command in the most straight forward way possible. Also minimizes the risk Mathilde exposes herself to before such time that actual battle begins. Does nothing that only we can do. Probably mostly only an option for completion's sake.
[ ] Try to track the bandits
Increases the chance of finding the actual bandits. If successful allows for swift initial Vengeance in order to satisfy at least a part of Dwarven psychology. Partially increases our chances to finding the people who planned this scheme. Risks Mathilde if the bandits are more powerful than expected. Puts Mathilde the farthest from the Okral and makes her the least able to help them, should a second attack happen. Either defies Belegar or at least directly disagrees with his priorities and uses methods to convince him of why this is more important (example: offenders may repeat).
[ ] Scour the river banks for anything the bandits left behind
Increases the chance of finding out the who and how of the ambush. Partially increases the chances of finding the bandits later. Does the least to save lives in the short term, but can easily be excused as useful citing "Wizard Things". Remains relatively close.
[ ] Use Substance of Shadow to check the wrecked passenger ship for survivors
Saves Dwarven lives. Gives bonus to dice roll of VIPs to survive. Morally simple and good action. Mathilde uses magic to save lives directly for the first time. Some Dwarves owe life debt. Adds (close to) nothing to defense or future offense, except if we stumble upon some major evidence. Given that there are no trap options that will be a lower chance than finding evidence with the third option. Slight risk to Mathilde's life.
[ ] Scout for any approaching greenskin forces
Increases defense effectiveness. May delay enemy forces. May even stop enemy forces. May risk Mathilde. May miss ambush from another side if really unlucky
How likely achieving any of the above is ultimately depends on the dice. As are the chances of getting the final "good" results of any one action without doing the action in question (i.e minimal casualties, taking Vengeance, revealing the full conspiracy, finding the VIP alive, and destroying the second wave of attackers). But whatever we choose will definitely both massively affect our chances for any one outcome and have important narrative consequences when it comes to how Mathilde is seen by herself and others.
Last edited:
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm pretty confident the Dwarfs would be taking payment in recompense as well for something like this, so they'd be parting with gold as well. Might be a harder sell.
- Location
- Europe
If you think the Dwarfs would let anyone get away with a free shot, ever, for anything, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
The entire culture of Grudges and Favours would demand significant and comparable restitution. If Marienburg failed to maintain order in its ranks then they owe the Dwarfs restitution to equal out their favor. Killing the ones responsible is insufficient when their laxness allowed the attack in the first place. That's how the system works.
- Location
- Russia
Except all the dwarves, you mean? They have night vision.
I agree with (1) though, not a lot of trackers among the Hammerers.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The update expressly says:
Right now it's just Mathilde who can be really active.
Hmm...actually, how far could the attackers have even gone in the dark?
Navigating without vision, barring being Skaven or vampire, is rather hazardous.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
They had an hour or two of sunlight after the ambush, probably pretty far.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
...hmm, what are the chances they stopped then or shortly after? Because if they've stopped, Mathilde wouldn't even have to do much to search the general direction they went. Not if she's on her shadow steed.
Depends on whether they are actual agents or bandits/mercenaries hired out of a tavern by a mysterious cloaked person and given the appropriate weapons. Not exactly the dumbest thing bandits have done.
Actual agents? Still buggering off.
Cutouts? Camped, sure they're safe.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
They're the fantasy collapsing british empire which really shouldn't be wanting to send forces here while they have an unresolved war with the dark elves going on.
If they actually show up with a significant force or threaten to declare war there are options.
The point of them intervening in Marienburg is that they want to influence the Empire by controlling the centerpoint of our trade and economy, but I'm not sure how well that's been going for them, maybe they could be brought onboard with an imperial reconquest of Marienburg by offering them some manner of expanded political rights in the empire so long as they order the Exarate to stay out of it/get their people out of the way?
Not sure exactly what they'd want in exchange for a commitment to prevent elvish interferance in the war though:
maybe the Exarate gets the right to control one Marienburg imperial electoral vote until such time as they choose to trade away that right?(under the expectation that if they don't the emperor has the option to assign a second vote to the rest of the city at a voted-upon time[everything about this solution is probably too illegal to use and requires way too much cooperation from the electors]), Maybe they'd want a commitment that the emperor will act in line with their ambassador's policy preferences in some specific field for a specific length of time, such as in using Imperial colonies to benefit Ulthuan for the next generation or something, or a requirement that the Imperial fleets(and maybe Reiksguard?) Are required to move to aid the High King's military endeavors(or maybe just defend Ulthuan) when requested, without a corresponding obligation to defend the empire on their part(I like this one, we need the Vortex intact as much as they do, but without something like this the empire'd never get involved in any attempt to defend it), maybe the emperor commits to order a certain percentage or number of College wizards to act as agents on behalf of Ulthuan in the Old World for X period of time, or maybe something closer to being symbolic like requiring that all elves be treated as if they have the legal protections and social privileges of an imperial noble of X rank.
It's all about having something that the Pheonix king can use to shout down his detractors, and claim that he wanted this all along/has more influence over the Old World than he did before he chose to interpret their defence treaty as not applying to new Marienburg and chose to support the Empire's annexation of the place.
And we carefully ignore that, if this river attack was Marienburg, most of any conquest of the city'd probably be at the hands of dwarven armies not any accompanying imperial ones.
Some of these ideas probably sound like they've got no chance of flying because they step on national sovereignty, but I'm not sure the idea existed the way it does in the wodern world before the RL Treaty of Westphalia, the ones around Electoral votes might not work, on account of laws designed to defend Electors' rights from bad emperors, but I think the ones committing the emperor to use their powers and control over pan-imperial institutions a certain way would work.
Last edited:
- Location
- Finland
I would expect the scapegoat needs to be atleast top leadership level, no "my employee acted on their own", that just means the boss was incompetent, not that they are not responsible.
A councilor is loosing their head, at minimum, and i doubt someone like that would go down silently.
And that is assuming that dwarves don't just fully buy the excuse and go "yes, sounds true, we don't care" and bomb Marienburg anyway because they do believe in collective responsibility to a level humans do not.
Debt of honor is much more transferable among dwarves than humans.
And dwarves may not have super high intrigue, but they are not idiots, allowing this go unpunished is asking for it to happen again.
- Location
- Earth
The status quo favors Ulthuan, or at least aligns with their interests. Whatever the Empire offers would have to outweigh what they already get, which is in effect, Marienburg. The first step to elvish approval for a reconquest of Marienburg is to cede Marienburg.
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
Which you can do by leaving the Exarate as recognized Ulthuani territory and maybe passing some of the theoretical Elector Count's control over the local economy to them(more than they already legally controlled, by cutting into the powers currently assigned to the directorate).
In which case we have essentially ceded them more of Marienburg than they started with, at the cost of having someone who they lack easy influence over(the emperor) also taking legal influence over the city.
Last edited:
- Location
- Finland
Not having an open war with Karaz Ankor is very much a thing Ulthuan wants.
Right now, allowing reconquest of Marienburg may become necessary to avoid that if Marienburg, or even few of its council, actually was behind this.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Less Chaos the closer to the equator you get, overall. The Winds are weaker, less corruption in the air, I guess.
If we'd started in Hochland, we'd have been up to our necks in Beastmen, but we were in Stirland, so... undead.
I mean sure, if you rule out all the things they're uniquely capable of, they're not great at investigating.
If that's a danger, Mathilde will recognize it and work to mitigate it.
Mathilde isn't going to just yolo through a wall. She's aware of the dangers.
She doesn't. It's shallow enough that it can be reached while holding her breath.
He's not. You could, but he wouldn't arrive for quite some time.
Any map of the Border Princes is going to be inaccurate before the ink has finished drying. Settlements spring up like mushrooms and are just as fragile. Nobody has any idea what direction the bandits might have gone in.
No.