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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Exmorri said:
Tally pointedly not inserted
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Yep, vote is a bit messy.

Hopefully just letting dwarves run wild with catchphrase "Protection" will include protection from miscasts - it's only logical for protection to cover biggest threat wizard faces.

Plus there is plenty "Protection/Antimatic". If grouped together, "Protection" and "Protection/Antimagic" have clear and owerwhelming majority.

Next week I propose that teaching Johann to dispel too should be a priority, so that we have the Wizard Corps ready for such things. Because as Belegar says, even with Kragg counting for five he has more wizards than Runepriests.
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No argument here. Dispel is important. We need to make that training before any major battle occurs. Otherwise, they would be relegated to spotters. Just as important, but less useful.
 
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Andres110 said:
Isn't it illegal for a human to learn Khazalid?
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I don't think it's 'illegal' for humans to learn it, but most Dwarves do not like humans speaking their language. Personally, I think it's not considered a big deal if someone, especially someone the dwarves respect, pick up a couple of words that are common. Words like Grobi, az, and umgi. Common words peppered into their man-tongues. I see their issue with it as Khazalid being an integral part of their culture and that it's secure. A dwarf can speak whatever he wants to in Khazalid, and only other dwarfs would know what he's saying. Not only is that important for diplomacy, Dwarves being able to 'politely' insult humans without causing issues, but also for keeping their secrets. Everything important in Dwarven culture is written in Khazalid, and for even one human to be able to look at a book, any book, and be able to translate it is... I would say comparable to seeing and knowing somebody has read your private diary with all of your dark secrets.

Remember, dwarves have a bit of an odd culture compared to humans. Just like how halfling culture is odd compared to humans, except in the opposite way. Halflings are known as thieves and scoundrels because in their friendly culture, they see no problem with your friends or family borrowing something without your knowledge, partly because that's how it's always been, partly because Halflings are friendly and kind for the most part. BUT humans aren't the same way and so when halflings 'borrow' something, a human sees it as stealing it. This works perfectly, because just as Humans see Halflings as untrustworthy thieves is similar to how Dwarves see most humans, untrustworthy in general.

Anyway, that's just my take on it.
 
The canon Warhammer Fantasy maps are usually either local or short on detail, so it's hard to get a good overview of just where we're travelling on long treks like the one to Karak Eight Peaks, even worse for the people like @TotallyNotEvil wondering how far it is to the Colleges. But I found a nice map by Cyowari on DeviantArt that seems to have done a good synthesis of a large region, and figured I'd post a relevant crop here with some points of interest highlighted. Altdorf, capital of the Empire. Stirland, everyone should be familiar with. Grenzstadt, where this army started marching. Barak Varr, where we are now. Karak Eight Peaks, where we are going. Click for larger:

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Go see the full original.
Keep in mind that this is not canon and you should not use it to argue fine points of geography with the QM.
 
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[X] Yes
-[X] Talisman
-[X] Protection/Anti-magic
-[X] 15 favors

[X] For the sake of your curiousity, sit in on some of the meetings between the two Kings

Seeing if I can help tip it.
 
Exmorri said:
The canon Warhammer Fantasy maps are usually either local or short on detail, so it's hard to get a good overview of just where we're travelling on long treks like the one to Karak Eight Peaks, even worse for the people like @TotallyNotEvil wondering how far it is to the Colleges. But I found a nice map by Cyowari on DeviantArt that seems to have done a good synthesis of a large region, and figured I'd post a relevant crop here with some points of interest highlighted. Altdorf, capital of the Empire. Stirland, everyone should be familiar with. Grenzstadt, where this army started marching. Barak Varr, where we are now. Karak Eight Peaks, where we are going. Click for larger:



Go see the full original.
Keep in mind that this is not canon and you should not use it to argue fine points of geography with the QM.
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What's our daily dislocament again? Something like 300 miles?

I don't suppose we could give Belengar the option of sending us to the colleges for a few weeks, while the army is marching there still, to round off our spell list?

It'd help the campaign.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
What's our daily dislocament again? Something like 300 miles?

I don't suppose we could give Belengar the option of sending us to the colleges for a few weeks, while the army is marching there still, to round off our spell list?

It'd help the campaign.
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Spells take monthly actions to learn. It'd be spending four or five march turns per spell.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
Only 21 now. :)

Anyway, general "Protection" catchphrase is likely to include antimagic. Any vote for "Protection/Antimagic" only adds to that.
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Got word of QM on that? A search for recent @BoneyM posts mentioning "Protection" in this thread didn't find anything to support that assumption.
I'll admit its not nearly as bad an assumption as "10 favors gets you a runefang", but it is an assumption made without good evidence.

This response in particular (question was about getting gear that approximated a ward save):

BoneyM said:
Just say 'talisman, protection' and dump in as many favours as your heart desires.
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Gives me the feeling that "Protection" will get us something that focuses on "prevent injury" rather than "shutdown magic".

Which isn't to say that "Protection" won't result in something with antimagic features. You could be right, and the same logical processes on the part of the dwarves that ensures that a gift for a wizard wouldn't get in the way of their being a wizard might result in them considering that wizards often go up against magic, so of course they would want something to protect them in those circumstances.

Its just that I feel we don't have sufficient information to make strong predictions on the matter.


@BoneyM
1. Do these interpretations seem accurate for the gist of what Mathilda will be asking for:
1.1. Protection: "I'm looking for something to help keep me alive"
1.2. Antimagic: "I'm looking for something to help deal with the dangers of magic"
1.3. Channeling: "I'm looking for something to make using magic easier/stronger"
1.4. Killy: "I want to make sure the things I hit die"
1.4.1. Killy+Banner: "I want to make sure that the group I'm leading can kill what's in front of them"
1.5. Commanding: "I want something to help me lead armies"
1.6. Pretty: "I am a vain fool who is wasting your time"
 
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thamuzz said:
Got word of QM on that?
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No explicit word - it's more of a fact, that BoneyM repeatedly underlined that what we ask Dwarves for is not a shop - it is giving them direction and letting master craftsmen run away with it.

The "Protection" is most general direction possible - outside of maybe "make it killy".

Dwarves are not stupid. They know what dangers wizards face. They know that miscast can hurt or kill not only a wizard, but also everyone around the wizard. "Protection" very much fits with making mage safe form that - both for his sake, and for safe of dwarved in the army around mage.

To put is simply: we do not know. We cannot know. BoneyM will make rolls for it. But purely by common sense, antimagic will be at very least considered under umbrela of "Protection".
 
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Guile said:
It's interesting, sure. But what makes you guys think the random wizard is allowed to sit in on a meeting between two Dwarven Kings? I feel like it should cost favor just to accomplish.
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Because it clearly doesn't cost favor as that isn't noted in the action unlike other ones that do? Like it is possible the meeting is done before a assembly of important figures in part due to this being the latest of many attempts to retake the place or our rep is sufficient to not tell anyone about the details of the meeting
 
Considering what we're spending on it, it may end up being the most powerful protective item the world has yet seen. If anyone starts finding out about the trinkets we carry around, we're going to be targeted for assassination just to take our stuff.
 
bookworm702 said:
Considering what we're spending on it, it may end up being the most powerful protective item the world has yet seen. If anyone starts finding out about the trinkets we carry around, we're going to be targeted for assassination just to take our stuff.
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... which in turn will make us acquire even more ridiculous protective items. It is a viscious circe.
 
Kornet said:
... which in turn will make us acquire even more ridiculous protective items. It is a viscious circe.
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Five hundred years later, people are going to be asking "Why do all these absurdly overpowered magic items exist? Why didn't they put all that effort into [alternative] instead? It would have had much vaster social benefits instead of supercharging a few people!" :p
 
I really doubt that the item we get will be game-breaking.

It will be (extremely) useful, and very valuable, but we shouldn't expect invulnerability.

That being said, between it, Ulgu abilities and the ressurection artifact, Mathilde will give her attackers' fits.

A good thing too, Skaven are hilariously killy, and the Goblins are as well when they go all out.

Btw. I can't believe there are actually three options with an equal number of votes for the5th action, and a several more options just a vote or two behind.
 
Horium said:
I really doubt that the item we get will be game-breaking.

It will be (extremely) useful, and very valuable, but we shouldn't expect invulnerability.

That being said, between it, Ulgu abilities and the ressurection artifact, Mathilde will give her attackers' fits.
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Protection against harm is one thing, but really groundbreaking part would be antimagic. If antimagic forms a pulse that nulls effect of any spell in (small) area and can be invoked at moment notice - then even if it's limited in number of uses per day it does change the rules for Mathilde.

Each time mage casts a spell, he or she risk everything. Each and every spell have very tiny, but real chance of getting killed or sucked into chaos domain. Each spell cast in battle have non-insignificant chance of the same.

If we can use antimagic to get around that? It changes things. For Mathilde and potentially also for colleges. There is a reason why Battle Magic is not used widely. And it's not only because Battle Mages are feared or unstable - they simply don't survive long. And so, they have to be used sparringly. If it was possible to use antimagic to cancel failed spells - then suddenly value of Battle Mages skyrockets.

And sure, boosting value of Battle Mages would require Empire to commision extremely pricy items from dawi - but it could well be worth it to have battle mage be able to use magic without risk of death, opening portal to chaos, or demons breaking into reality.
 
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Dice, I think you might be overstating the reproducibility of what's about to be created. We're commissioning an item that will take the attentions of a Dwarfen Hold and the most powerful Runelord alive. Even the Dwarfen Kings likely have to wait on a list before they can contract work from Kragg, and this might be the first time that Kragg has created a work for a human. Whatever it is we receive, even if it is capable of what you're proposing, it will never see a twin, let alone the possibility of making it a standard piece of equipment for battle mages.
 
Yeah but we have to had truly tremendous rep for that to mean something dice , maybe a elector count who has been good to dwarfs or maybe the emperor could get one made maybe aswell . And mainly might be possible cause of kragg being available and he finds humans in general really meh to him aswell against ur point .

And we dont know if its true yet , need to wait for the results to be honest . My hope is that the 15 favor talisman gives us great wardsave wich is a hole of ours atm.

My point about the 15 favor talisman winning ,lets use all of our favors if we are using 15 up already. Since we already got 4 favors from straight out luck without any achivement people in 3 weeks.

Please lets also do a 3 favor one hand runeaxe as a 2ndary weapon to dual wield with our pistol wich should be abit more viable in hold fighting i think than greatsword at times with the point being that we will be freaking forced into melee at time during this and pretending that it wont happen seems very naive to be honest ?
Basicly the logic is abit looking like pirates did with a pistol and cutlass(runeaxe for us) more or less rather than us wielding a 2h greatsword at our tiny size when we arent using magic? And keeping the thought of doing a greatsword / staff thingie to boost our magic later ?
 
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bookworm702 said:
Dice, I think you might be overstating the reproducibility of what's about to be created. We're commissioning an item that will take the attentions of a Dwarfen Hold and the most powerful Runelord alive.
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atrophy said:
Yeah but we have to had truly tremendous rep for that to mean something dice
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First of all, we are commisioning general protection. Getting dedicated antimagic item optimized for mages (short range, working only for a moment) would likely not require Kragg. Less functionality to include.

Second - we are starting to speak about actions on Empire level. Things like getting items for political concessions, for additional privileges for dwarves, for military support, etc. We are also speaking about possibilities of creating a system where Empire as a whole does something for Dwarves in exchange for that. We are also speaking about timeframe of decades to actually change anything.

If antimagic can work, and Empire as a whole decides it's worth it, then it will happen. We are speaking about things like changing whole alignment of Colleges of Magic and getting them to cooperate and ally with Dwarves. Mages support dwarves on battlefield and in any other way they can, and dwarves makes manling magic safer by something only they can do.

Hell, I can imagine tradition where magister serves dwarves for 5 years in exchange for antimagic talisman. It would be simple and to the point deal, benefiting both sides.

Let's not treat setting as immutable. Things can change. If it is beneficial for mages to ally strongly with dwarves, it can happen. Things can change in time.

Also, please note that any antimagic items would be reausable. Even if mage dies, nothing prevents talisman from outliving its wielder. Even if it was very slowly going, over time it would be possible for mages to get enough of them to cover ranks of magisters - it would just take few centuries.

As for Mathilde? She can be a spark that starts the whole process.
 
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[X] Barak Varr is one of the greatest centers of trade in the world. Spend some time browsing to see if you find anything interesting.
[X] Dwarf technology may be off limits, but the technology of other races are not and there could be all sorts of useful gadgets coming in from overseas. See if you can pick anything useful up with him from the vast markets of Barak Varr.
[X] Help Seija teach Esbern to Dispel.
[X] Many mercenaries look for work at Barak Varr among trades looking to make the long and dangerous trip to the east. See if any can be convinced to join the Expedition instead.
[X] Yes
-[X] 10 Favors
-[X] Protection/Antimagic
-[X] Channeling/Antimagic

Don't know why everyone is so eager to spend 15 favors when 9 was enough to get us an OP item last time. Or why we'd want a generic protection one when we can roll the dice on Ulgu-channeling by Dwarf. Sigh. Really wish it had been a separate vote instead of part of the more normal voting, especially with so many voters.
 
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Yeah that is a point but we dont know that yet currently and would need wholesale commitment to the dwarfs from the colleges wich seem kinda unlikely but kinda possible and emperor being a good one and wanting to do that aswell wich arent uber likely . And this is being abit early before we see the result we get and alot more explanation from boney aswell.

altough ur idea of doing 5-10 years of service with the dwarfs for a great anti botch amulet seem abit more realistic than others especially the ones going for lord/battlemagic levels might actually worth the trouble for mages if they are interested but it still is abit early to discuss this but this idea seems alot more realistic than the other points.

Maybe would be individual college by college basis as a option and maybe not for every college and probably would have to be at specific holds ? Greys go to zhufbar and , golds get hornhold and so on and maybe a certain limit at once aswell since rune stuff is rare and this wont be fun to craft especially since rune stuff is kinda rare?

We could set this up after the campaign even if the talisman is good enough to get favors from the colleges who are interested maybe and being the introductory person with the repesentive of a college to a hold each is my best guess? And if it works out we could get dwarf rep instead of dwarf favors for example to be a legendary figure as a human to general dwarfs or the one decent mageling ? Could help us acheive wizard lordship if this goes well aswell atleast in part and not entierly btw.

but this is very conditional on the result and what boney decides that lesser runepriests can do aswell to see if it would be worth the effort even and the main point against the argument is that we have the best runelord alive doing this for unholy amounts of favors wich might make it useful enough and might not be true for general runepriest work.
 
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