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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[ ] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor

Oh, hey, those Divided Loyalties decided to show up.

A lot of people are concerned about the Empire fucking things up with the Dwarves if they know about the rift, but if the example of Belegar and Thorgrim tells us anything, it's that keeping secrets can lead to massive diplomatic failures too. Luitpold seems competent, and I can't imagine it's in Ranald's interests to blow up the Karaz Ankor for shits and giggles, so he should have Heidi's support on this too. So yeah - do our job, and give the Empire the info they need not to step on the Dwarf's toes diplomatically. Obviously, don't share actual secrets.
 
@BoneyM could we make conditionals for what we say based on our impression of the Chamberlain?

Say,

[ ] Speak honestly on Dwarven rifts if the Chamberlain seems like he'd make appropriate use of the knowledge, but otherwise only say what the dwarfs would be comfortable with?

It'd have the downside of us obviously measuring what we say to him, of course, but it would let us be more careful about what knowledge we pass on.
 
Parzival95 said:
Like, I barely had to think about this. We can explain to Belegar when we get back that the Empire called on us for a deeper undated standing of the dwarves so that he has a heads up that they might try something.
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And if the Empire uses the information on the not-quite-rift of the dwarfs in a way that forces people to pick sides (because now outsiders know) what do we say? Oops?
 
It's worth noting that Mathilde is one of the leading experts on the Dwarves. We have more favor and experience understanding them than all but literally a handful of living humans. We should lean on that to clarify our decisions, explain why we're revealing or not revealing things, and push the Empire in the right direction as far as using what you're telling them.

Some write-ins to explore possible avenues:

[] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor. However, make sure the Chamberlain understands precisely how easy it'd be to mess up by using the information you share.

[] Explicitly state that there are further items that you were sworn to secrecy on. In the interests of maintaining relations with the Karaz Ankor, who take oaths extremely seriously, you'll be keeping those secrets. The Empire does not need a war with the Karaz Ankor.
 
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Garlak said:
Could he help? If he knew about the delicacy of some matters? Or if he was able to offer some help?
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Algard called Luitpold sensible and decided to read him in with regard to the Ulrikans.
That said Algard also considered not reading Luitpold in...

The wizard's oath is explicitly empire first, then emperor.
Though an emperor might not see it like that of course.

Mathilde herself has said that the guy we will talk to has a reputation for fair and straightforward dealings.
[ ] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
 
BoneyM said:
There are things that the Chamberlain would like to know that the Dwarves would prefer he didn't. There's not really a grey area between 'tell him' and 'don't tell him'.
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I suppose we could try to pick specific information that the Dwarves would rather the Empire not know rather than turning over all of it, but that could easily get us the worst of both worlds. Ugh.

BoneyM said:
The only surviving bodyguard blamed the paranoia of the elder before his execution, but some dubious evidence was uncovered in their quarters that suggested the ambition of the younger was the cause.
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Possible that the younger son's tried things before that didn't go as far, possibly in response to the elder son initiating things out of paranoia. Either could have come first and fed into the other.

Strongly suggests there's something unpleasantly wrong in Karak Hirn's court regardless. Pretty sure trying to investigate further would make more than a few dwarfs very unhappy with us, though. Hope Ulthar's keeping his eye out.

One note:
BoneyM said:
the small differences you've learned to spot are the equivalent to a particularly vain Altdorf noble. The chain is a silvery colour, not gromril but pretending to be, an expensive and militarily pointless variation on the silversteel of Karak Eight Peaks, his axe glints with jewels instead of Runes, and instead of braids, his sable-black beard bears silver rings, dotted with sapphires.
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I can't imagine that's the kind of getup Ulthar would pick of his own volition, so either he's been pressured into it - or he's doing it intentionally as camouflage.

Either way, I'd expect it to be an even worse sign in a dwarf court than it is in a human one.
 
Derpmind said:
[] Speak as Loremaster Weber. In this meeting you are an official of a foreign state, not a local college-affiliated wizard.

Yes/No?
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That would very very very much be signalling that Mathy loyalty is to the first dwarfs now to one of the people you really don't want to think your not loyal anymore.

like, its fine if that's what you want, but it's even more of a stone wall then the 'help quite' option.
 
Actually, no, y'know what? After having thought about my first post a bit more, I've decided to change my mind a bit. Or rather, I've realized a few things about what I said and what my saying it meant.

I was being too paranoid about the Empire and Karaz Ankor.

And I was being too untrusting and cynical about the Empire.
BoneyM said:
Though you keep from showing it, you're quite surprised. The Chamberlain of the Seal answers directly to the Emperor and is responsible for foreign relations, and the current holder of the role is Graf Otto von Bitternach, who despite his youth has been able to cultivate a reputation for fair and straightforward dealing with the allies of the Empire. "What matters, specifically?"
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And, frankly, the Chamberlain at least has a reputation for fairness and straightforwardness.

So if I'm so skeptical of the Empire not possibly being able to do a single right thing ever, then... ... that's too skeptical.

And if I'm not willing to tell the Empire squat, then I think that might be preferring/favoring the Dwarfs to too large an extent.

So yeah, I'm... Well, at the least, I am walking back the things I said in my previous post. (If I choose the 3rd, maximum-secret, option still, it'd be for different reasons than the... sheer doubt-ness expressed in the first post.)

So yeah, I'm -- I think anyway -- currently favoring the 2nd option. "Tell everything not explicitly secret."
 
DragonParadox said:
And if the Empire uses the information on the not-quite-rift of the dwarfs in a way that forces people to pick sides (because now outsiders know) what do we say? Oops?
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Yes! We swore oaths to the Empire above all else, although we have personal loyalty and friendship to Belegar and the dwarves. And they're allies on top of that. We shouldn't explicitly betray either of our superiors, and we can't assume that either of them are going to destroy whatever they touch.

We have to have some faith in the system we're loyal to, and if they shoot themselves in the foot we apologize to Belegar and make recompense, on behalf of the Empire if not ourselves.

I really think we're giving too little credit to either side here, Mathilde is not the only competent actor in the world.
 
Derpmind said:
Anyone trying to exploit the rift between Thorgrim and Belegar could seriously hurt the entire Karaz Ankor, sure.
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Why are some people treating the Empire as incompetents or enemies? They are not going to go around exploiting any rifts, they understand that Karaz Ankor falling into a civil war or secession crisis is going to be absolutely horrible for the security of the Empire. Dwarves are allies, why would The Council try to fuck them over, instead of making sure they don't accidentally aggravate the rifts?
 
Graf Otto von Bitternach? I've looked the guy up, and according to the wiki on a Lahmian who would work for his successor he is a straight up Otto von Bismarck expy, even holding the cognomen of the "Iron Graf", a clear reference to the "Iron Chancellor". He is also noted to have been immune to the Lahmians ploys and conspiracies until old age took him, so i think at the very least he will be a hard nut to crack for anyone wanting to get to Dwarf secrets through him.

I think we can assume that he will use whatever we tell him here extremely well. But as a Bismarck expy we also need to assume that he will have little scruples in using what we give him, if he judges it to benefit the Empire. Bismarck was a stone-cold bastard when he thought Prussia needed him to be. Though i think that the ancient alliance between Empire and Karaz Ankor will keep him honest.
 
Garlak said:
On the other hand, maybe if he was provided good information, and if he was earnestly asked/requested to be considerate and helpful to the Karaz Ankor rather than try to be opportunistic... maybe he'd be more willing to listen to somebody like Mathilde? ... Actually, I guess Mathilde does have those 2 Great Deeds to her name... So she probably could ask the Emperor to take more of a "Don't Be a Dick/Don't Sow Discrd" if it came to it! It might even be worth it, totally worth it, to do so. (If we needed to, that is.)
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I would be happy to use a great boon on this actually. Assuming we can actually do so.

chocolote12 said:
who call marriages and parenthood 'long cons'.
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Shes the high priest of Ranald. Sarcasm, a devil may care attitude, and playing her heart so close to her chest it's under her skin are probably like breathing to her.

BoneyM said:
'High level politician' is underselling it a bit. He's directly under the Emperor, part of the same council as the Reiksmarshal, the Supreme Patriarch, and the Grand Theogonist.
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That's good to know actually. Since if hes actually terrible at his job we have bigger problems.
 
[ ] Conceal matters you know the Dwarves would prefer you conceal
-[ ] Discuss how there is a bit of a contrast between the "young" and "old" holds in terms of outlook, where the old holds have a "glass is half empty" mentality while the young holds have a "glass is half full" mentality, and why (without going into anything about a rift).
- [ ] Discuss how King Belegar is in a unique position where Karak Eight Peaks is definitely an old hold, but in most ways it's a new one as well, with a very different kind of population and, in some ways, culture. King Belegar is navigating the demands of tradition and the demands of a new reality pretty well, but there remains a lot of room for new ideas to be considered. If the Empire has new ideas for Empire-Dwarf relations/actions, Karak Eight Peaks is probably the place to propose them--through proper channels, of course.


I feel like this treads the middle-ground fairly well, providing good context and background for stuff relevant to the Empire without going into anything the dwarves would feel embarrassed or sensitive about. It avoids any implications of a rift between Belegar and Thorgrim (or a rift between young holds and old holds), while also providing info that could lead to new options proposed by the Empire (through official channels) for Belegar to consider.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is if we tell them about the rift they might try to exploit the rift, hell they might even try to fix the rift, but not understanding dwarfs (we are probably one of the greatest dwarf experts in the Empire and we sure as hell are not advising the Emperor) they could make things much worse. This is not just about Belegar being disappointed, it is about the potential for catastrophic diplomatic fallout.
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They will not do this. Dieter IV isn't currently in office. This information will be used to avoid the issue like the black plague, to avoid exacerbating it.

vsh said:
That's not entirely true. We have power and position to make a call what would be okay to disclose and what's too dangerous. Chamberlain is not the boss of ours and we can justify keeping secrets. It won't win us any friends, sure, but it's not a trap option.
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The Chamberlain answers only to the Emperor himself, as the adviser who handles Foreign Affairs. For all intents and purposes this is the Empire asking. Honestly, I think it could be argued (though not definitively) that we're required to answer truthfully under the Articles, with nothing saying we can't do so on the Dwarven side. And the main thrust of my point, that we'd be declaring to the Empire that we're more loyal to the Dwarves than to them, is entirely unaffected.

The Dwarves haven't told us we can't talk about this stuff, they'd just disapprove if they knew, which they never will.
 
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BoneyM said:
[ ] Conceal matters you know the Dwarves would prefer you conceal
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Chamberlain of the seal getting to ask questions about a Dwarf from a Grey Order Wizard? Getting true honesty would probably scare him to death. Them concealing things? Another day at the office.

Also, what is the Empress actually doing day-to-day, if she considers covert actions against Battle Wizard. She must be getting dangerously bored.
 
[ ] Conceal matters you know the Dwarves would prefer you conceal

[ ] Though you both use your magic to cheat, you both have an interest in personal fitness. Work out with him.

[ ] The Halflings are renowned chefs, and several restaurants have opened clustered around the base of Karag Nar. Share a meal with her.

For Panoramia, the farm memories are not comfortable for Mathilde, and the Tower subject is not Panoramia's favorite. But everyone likes to eat.
 
fictionfan said:
Dipo or stewardship adviser?
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External diplo. The Council of State is eight people: Faith, Magic, Law, internal diplomacy, external diplomacy, military, stewardship, personal holdings. Intrigue doesn't officially exist.

Whassup said:
Also, what is the Empress actually doing day-to-day, if she considers covert actions against Battle Wizard. She must be getting dangerously bored.
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To be fair, duels are the official and approved method of succession for the Supreme Patriarch.
 
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Parzival95 said:
Yes! We swore oaths to the Empire above all else, although we have personal loyalty and friendship to Belegar and the dwarves. And they're allies on top of that. We shouldn't explicitly be either of our superiors, and we can't assume that either of them are going to destroy whatever they touch.
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And I'm sure that will be a balm to his soul in the midst of a dwarf schism. This is not about whether Belegar will understand, after all Mathilde has done for him I'm sure he will. This is about whether the empire is trustworthy with the intricacies and fault lines of Karaz Ankor and my judgement is they are not.

Take note that when I say the Empire I do not just mean this Chancellor or this Emperor. Emperors change and so do courtiers. Once the information is out of Mathilde's lips we are trusting the Imperial Court in its entirety with it now and forever.
 
I will admit I'm eyeing option 2 while favoring option 3, but I'm also favoring the write in "Be Loremaster Mathilde", mostly because I partly think we'll be praised for it.
Currently, we're an ambassador to the Dawi and we're currently holding the highest official position among them that a human has been amongst them ever. If the Chamberlain has any sense he'll see that what we are doing isn't swaying between loyalties, but holding our loyalties to the Empire in that we won't jeopardize our position and throw the net benefit for humanity away over diplomatic table scraps.
 
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chocolote12 said:
He comes highly recommended, but so does Gabriella, and look at her.
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Thinking more about this, it really does honestly explain the sentiment I feel that I might be trying to express here. I don't trust the government of the Empire, because it's riddled with holes. Our first day as a Journeywoman was getting on the wrong end of a country-spanning conspiracy that ended up with the last empress dead. Many of our actions as the Spymaster of Stirland were disappearing people because they were all horribly disloyal. The Peat Trade is still riddled with vampire sympathizers. Gabriella, a fake noble who worships a proscribed god, is married to the Emperor to run a long con on him, and the only reason we're not freaking out about that one is because we worship the same guy.

And don't get me started about assuming advisors are loyal; questioning that is the byline of the quest. Mr. 'A Quarter of Your Army Isn't Real', anybody?

It does feel like a problem that might need to be addressed in character, but it's also the sort of thing that'd never come up in any way other than being kidnapped in the middle of the night by the tax ninjas and tied to a chair. What an issue.
 
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Thing is, if we don't tell about the rift, then the empire will assume it does not exist and can make things worse out of ignorance.
There is no guaranteed "right" answer here, atleast no based on diplomatic outcomes between empire and the dwarves.
 
Valmond said:
If the empire thinks our loyalty to it is secondary, we are not passing up on promotion, we are potentially passing up on continuing to live.
And after having our boss daemoncheck us, and sending us of to anti chaos lessons, i am not eager to tip our toe into those waters again.
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Ah yes, the Dwarven race would absolutely love the part where their incredibly famous war hero Loremaster of the brightest star of hope in the entire Karaz Ankor gets executed by the Empire for not spilling their shameful secrets. Belegar would totally understand.
 
Valmond said:
Thing is, if we don't tell about the rift, then the empire will assume it does not exist and can make things worse out of ignorance.
There is no guaranteed "right" answer here, atleast no based on diplomatic outcomes between empire and the dwarves.
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The rift technically doesn't exist from anyones side than Belegars and Mathilde. There's no way they (ed: The Empire)can make it any worse.
 
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