Because she cannot effectively manipulate him. Heidi seeks power reflexively from what we have seen. I guess that is one of the things that made her Lahmian guise so believable.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
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Because she cannot effectively manipulate him. Heidi seeks power reflexively from what we have seen. I guess that is one of the things that made her Lahmian guise so believable.
Personally, I don't want to have Mathilde be "lost" to Karaz Ankor. For me and those who feel like me, we better not vote that way!
I think that's entirely acceptable, thanks! The way I see it, we're our own sleeper agent and a diplomat and have full power to determine what's acceptable to disclose and what would be detrimental.
After giving it some second thought - I'd rather not tell about the internal rifts. Mostly because AFAIK the main rift is at least partly one-sided - Thorgrim knows Belegar is pissed at him due to not sending aid but by sending the Okral dwarf mindset says that should have made things even (just where both sides are worse off because of compromises to their honour due to destroying records and covering up the truth). However, Belegar has an additional axe to grind now that he's jumped to conclusions about Waystone energy and likely hasn't tipped Thorgrim off about that yet.
Similarly, the rift is mostly personal - Belegar's hate is for Thorgrim rather than the position of High King and while there is friction between K8P population and the Okral it's manageable for them to work on the same overall project even if it's better to split them up for individual tasks. That means that from an external perspective such as the Empire, it's not actually all that useful to know - any benefit from not stepping on toes of interpersonal conflict is balanced out by the dwarf shame from the Empire tipping their hand regarding knowledge of something shameful to the dwarfs.
It might work out if the Empire's representative is good enough to dodge stepping on dwarf toes without letting on that that's what they're doing, but that line of logic would require me to trust in the competence of a person we've never met IC and never seen onscreen OOC.
Similarly, the rift is mostly personal - Belegar's hate is for Thorgrim rather than the position of High King and while there is friction between K8P population and the Okral it's manageable for them to work on the same overall project even if it's better to split them up for individual tasks. That means that from an external perspective such as the Empire, it's not actually all that useful to know - any benefit from not stepping on toes of interpersonal conflict is balanced out by the dwarf shame from the Empire tipping their hand regarding knowledge of something shameful to the dwarfs.
It might work out if the Empire's representative is good enough to dodge stepping on dwarf toes without letting on that that's what they're doing, but that line of logic would require me to trust in the competence of a person we've never met IC and never seen onscreen OOC.
- Location
- Finland
If the empire thinks our loyalty to it is secondary, we are not passing up on promotion, we are potentially passing up on continuing to live.
And after having our boss daemoncheck us, and sending us of to anti chaos lessons, i am not eager to tip our toe into those waters again.
[ ] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
Be honest, but keep explicit secrets on the reason that Mathilde potentially pissing of the dwarves is not in empires best interests.
Johann:
[ ] You've got a puppy, he's got several. Easy. Spend time with him as your pup plays with his.
[ ] There's a festival to Grungni coming up, and Johann has taken to observing the Holy Days of the Ancestor-God. Join him in this.
Puppies of dawi holy days, i'm good for both.
Panoramia:
[ ] Though you rarely think of those days, you did grow up on a farm and know something of the soil. Spend time with her as she goes about her work.
[ ] The Halflings are renowned chefs, and several restaurants have opened clustered around the base of Karag Nar. Share a meal with her.
[ ] Panoramia currently calls a small cottage somewhere in the Eastern Valley home, help her expand it into a proper tower.
I want all of these.
Though maybe start with the farming, we can help her raise a tower later, no matter how the romance thing goes.
- Location
- Germany
Pathological need to plot and take risks maybe?
Sometimes I can see quite well why people think Ranald is the better half of Tzeentch.
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Guile
Having a really great time right now
So she's always thinking of us! Great idea, Hydroplatypus!
Fair enough as a statement of preference, but not really a counter argument. Note that I did say lost in quotes. She is only really lost if the Empire does something invincibly stupid.
Hmm... I think I currently favor, or prefer to go with, concealing matters the Dwarfs would prefer us to conceal...
Because, like... These rifts within the Karaz Ankor? Or careful-Not-Rifts? The Dwarfs aren't willing to talk openly about it in public.
One of the ways that Dwarfs can avoid an unpleasant truth or past or strife, one of the ways that they can move on or be capable of swallowing an unpleasant thing and dealing with it... is by not talking about it at all, by trying their best not to think of it, or trying not to record it. And probably just living with the shame or misery of the compromise. We got a reminder and example of that with Ulthar just now, actually.
So. These not-rifts are delicate matters amongst the Dwarfs. And they avoid them exploding, or cracking, by delicacy.
If humans knew more about them, they might wind up pushing or stumbling over a sore point. Or just... If the knowledge spreads enough, eventually it's going to come to a person who is less well-aware of Dwarfs and what Dwarfs are like, and something might go wrong.
... Though on the other hand... Perhaps if a few select and important people know the situation, then maybe they'd be able to help things along? It's just... The Elector Council really did not impress Belegar much, so... ... Then again, those were the Elector Counts. This would be Emperor Luitpold.
Could he help? If he knew about the delicacy of some matters? Or if he was able to offer some help?
Just, gah... Would we trust the Emperor to decide to help the Karaz Ankor, or would we think that he would take advantage of the current mood of Dawi politics in order to benefit the Empire? Or just... not benefit-the-Empire-at-the-expense-of-Dawi. But just. Benefit the Empire, not trying to do so by taking advantage of the Karaz Ankor, buuuut... as a result, kind of leaving things to be harder for the Dwarfs.
... Hmm.
@BoneyM In the "including rifts within the Karaz Ankor" option, would Mathilde include the part where she called the High King for help for Karak Eight Peaks, and he didn't answer? Or does that fall under "explicitly a goddamn secret"? ... Actually now that I phrased it that way, that seems like an obvious "Yes it's a fucking secret" which calms me a tiny bit. Though...
Gah. I don't want the Emperor, or the Empire, deciding to favor one side of the New-Old Dwarf political lines, thereby potentially deepening rifts. I'd love it if instead the Emperor could do something to help those Dwarfs. But... I don't know what he'd do.
On the other hand, maybe if he was provided good information, and if he was earnestly asked/requested to be considerate and helpful to the Karaz Ankor rather than try to be opportunistic... maybe he'd be more willing to listen to somebody like Mathilde? ... Actually, I guess Mathilde does have those 2 Great Deeds to her name... So she probably could ask the Emperor to take more of a "Don't Be a Dick/Don't Sow Discrd" if it came to it! It might even be worth it, totally worth it, to do so. (If we needed to, that is.)
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well my reaction to that is "Friggin NOPE". You do not go around spilling that kind of major vulnerability of your friends and/or employers. Anyone trying to exploit the rift between Thorgrim and Belegar could seriously hurt the entire Karaz Ankor, sure. But even if it's not-explicitly-secret, I'd never want someone to publicly reveal my giant weakspot where you can attack for massive damage. That'd be horrible to gossip to a stranger, and much, much worse when it's instead an entire government.
This might be a better path. Maybe something like-
[] Speak as Loremaster Weber. In this meeting you are an official of a foreign state, not a local college-affiliated wizard.
Yes/No?
So it isn't just the Greys who do that.
Once again we shall engage in a rousing game of "My worst was..."
Ironically we probably could kill him, with a bit of prep. Beating him in a duel though? No happening.
I feel Mathilde might be just a bit out of touch.
Divisions of loyalty. How I have not missed you.
Just the stuff we can give them without stepping on toes is honestly extremely relevant, considering the kind of access we have is pretty unique. So I don't really see it as shorting the Empire much to just give them what we can without digging deep.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Make no mistake, it's going to be very obvious to the Chamberlain and the Empire if we don't tell them anything the Dwarves wouldn't want them to know. If we share a few non-damaging stories the Dwarves won't even be affected by the Karaz Ankor will never know, but if we don't tell them anything we will be declaring to the Empire that our loyalties have been suborned. This is a mistake.
chocolote12
A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.
She can't bend him to her will, because he's basically an action hero and those don't mesh well with what are, let's be honest, evil scheming queens who call marriages and parenthood 'long cons'. We like her because we've got the same god, and that's, uh, it. It's basically a daemon-cult thing with better optics.
Something else to consider is that it's not the Emperor asking this, it's a high level politician we've never met before. He comes highly recommended, but so does Gabriella, and look at her.
I think that that's taking the potential downsides and just making them explicit.
I'd like to emphasize again that Dwarves are not shy about getting the matters they actually want to be kept secret under explicit oaths and such. What we would share under the second option would not be that, but things Dwarves would just consider shameful - like the whole thing with Prince Ulthar. But even should the information like that completely leak from the Council and basically be talked about on every corner, it's not going to actively hurt either Dwarves at large or our friends specifically. And we have no reason to believe this information is going to leak - for one, at least canonically Otto von Bitternach was the guy who kept Imperial Intelligence from falling under Lahmian influence. Meanwhile, Imperial diplomats can work with this information to ensure both The Empire and Karaz Ankor benefit from various agreements while keeping their mouths shut and not explicitly pointing out that they know it.
Yeah, that's a secret.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I think that we might be underestimating ourselves a bit. Of course we would lose a far fight, but if we surprised sworded him in human form and kept chopping without giving any time to recover.... Our sword would disable his magic effects. So even if he has a seed like us it would not work.
- Location
- florida
This. This is true happiness. AND wolf is great with kids!
@BoneyM is their a write in option for "I would really like to help with dwarven politics, but I am not sure you wont stab yourself?"
The thing is if we tell them about the rift they might try to exploit the rift, hell they might even try to fix the rift, but not understanding dwarfs (we are probably one of the greatest dwarf experts in the Empire and we sure as hell are not advising the Emperor) they could make things much worse. This is not just about Belegar being disappointed, it is about the potential for catastrophic diplomatic fallout.
Asheram
Not quite altogether
- Location
- Δ Hidden Forbidden Holy Ground
I'll second this write-in.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
"I like and am loyal to the Empire, buuuut I might need to decapitate it. By which I mean you, sir. You would just disappear one night, and no one would know what happened to you or why. Unless I go the extra mile, and plant evidence that you fled to Marienburg with a sizable sum ahead of your creditors."
"I don't HAVE creditors!"
"That just lets me indulge my artistic side. Would you prefer gambling on cock-fighting or a drug habit?"
"..."
"I'm glad we had this talk. Do feel free to mail me if you have any more questions on Dwarf secrets."
-- Mathilde 'I rolled a 1 on Diplomacy' Weber
'High level politician' is underselling it a bit. He's directly under the Emperor, part of the same council as the Reiksmarshal, the Supreme Patriarch, and the Grand Theogonist.
That's not entirely true. We have power and position to make a call what would be okay to disclose and what's too dangerous. Chamberlain is not the boss of ours and we can justify keeping secrets. It won't win us any friends, sure, but it's not a trap option.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[] Speak honestly of everything not explicitly secret, including rifts within the Karaz Ankor
I'm astonished by how quickly this turned into an argument. This isn't a difficult decision, we're loyal to Belegar but he knows Mathilde has sworn oaths to the Empire and the Colleges. We don't need to spill explicit state secrets, but we can fill them in on the subtler, more obscured politics.
Like, I barely had to think about this. We can explain to Belegar when we get back that the Empire called on us for a deeper understanding of the dwarves so that he has a heads up that they might try something.
I'm astonished by how quickly this turned into an argument. This isn't a difficult decision, we're loyal to Belegar but he knows Mathilde has sworn oaths to the Empire and the Colleges. We don't need to spill explicit state secrets, but we can fill them in on the subtler, more obscured politics.
Like, I barely had to think about this. We can explain to Belegar when we get back that the Empire called on us for a deeper understanding of the dwarves so that he has a heads up that they might try something.
- Location
- USA
I really like this write in. Boney says that Mathilde won't speak of the sensitive matters to the Foreign Office, but that the bureaucrats will infer that something is being held back. I'm fine with that. It lets the empire know where the potential grey areas exist, but doesn't tell them explicitly. If they go on later to figure it out on their own, without Mathilde's direct help, I'm fine with that.