- Location
- Florida
[X] Plan: Spoken Queekish v4 with Better Max
[x] Plan Redshirt v2
[x] Plan Redshirt v2
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I sometimes think about what would have happened if we had stayed on. Would our accomplishments have been even half as great? We likely would have killed a bunch more vampires.
Then again leaving the job gave us time to graduate and those months spent studying really upped our general fighting power.
- Location
- Spain
No way to know at this point.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Do we at least know what the books are about? I assume that they read them before they started translating.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
No one learns martial arts out of a book at least not by itself.
- Location
- Singapore
So, I'd like to preface this issue with the following: my overall position is that we ought to recruit a Deputy to groom before we progress further in our Intelligence Network through actions like recruiting handlers because the benefits of growing 2nd IC (rolls, options, and eventual autonomous manager) and the narrative potential of a 2nd IC bringing a face to our network are both compelling reasons to go for a 2nd IC. And since the benefits of a 2nd IC grow over time as he/she gains experience, there is not much sense in us actually holding off on the recruitment of the 2nd IC, when even a small initial roll bonus may well make a difference in recruiting Handlers.
The same logic that behooves us to stack bonuses through the Library, also applies to hiring a Deputy. Furthermore, from a in-universe perspective, Mathilde's experience of an Intelligence Network has been with working through a competent deputy that is sufficiently reliable. That was Mathilde when she was in Stirland, before the years she spent under King Belegar's service, which I would say are probably just as formative as her time under Abelheim. It would be a very plausible character interpretation, that spending time among the Dwarves means that Mathilde is less likely to settle for "reliable" enough and though she herself will never trust almost anyone fully, she does understand that some candidates are going to be more reliable than others, so the most Dwarven thing to do is to take a Candidate who is most likely to have the highest political reliability - from her perspective as a Grey Magister loyal to the Grey College and to the Empire.
Moreover, one might imagine the more our network grows, the longer it takes to bring our Deputy up to speed. If our Deputy is with us during the process of recruiting the first handlers, it's way easier for our deputy to build working relationships with our handler because he or she is not someone parachuted in by fiat of Mathilde, but some who was part of the community from very nearly the start of the true external intelligence network.
So yes, my hope is that this convinces plan voters and makers to prioritize hiring a second IC as the EIC action next turn, because this is the sort of thing best done sooner rather than later, if we are going at it at all, and laying aside gradually growing bonuses to the network indefinitely is laying down shoddy foundations. My hope, is that a consensus can be made with who we go for. It seems to me that the skepticism and the case against Gretel is more widespread in the vocal voters compared to a Perpetual, who are probably over-represented during plan voting phases. So cynically speaking, it's more strategic for me to argue for the Perpetual because the 1CF favor upkeep viz other options does buy us something vital, more on that later.
Now, I'm going to make a detailed response to your logic chain, which I think is very worth replying to, and I am thankful you've laid it out clearly. I hope I can engage with you well here.
1. It is totally true that we, and Mathilde is concerned about the EIC misusing their powers. The objection here is not the EIC making money, the objection here is the EIC making money though certain specific means. We are concerned that the EIC acts against the interest of the Empire, and in pursuit of profit, consorts with Enemies of the Empire.
1a. As a corollary, we are less interested that the EIC achieves these profits by stacking the deck against the competition, and drawing/cultivating political influence. Make no mistakes, the EIC is a paragon of Crony Capitalism. But this is the Warhammer World, not the real world, so applying our real-world moral biases here is unwise.
2. Therefore, we are interested in a certain type of trustworthiness. I'm not sure whether IC, Mathilde objects to her agent using her position to make dosh, I think it's more likely that what Mathilde objects to is her agent acting against the Interest of the Empire to make said dosh. If her agent screws over merchants outside the EIC, one of the Intel options for the EIC offers that too, so it seems clear to me that Mathilde won't bat an eye if her agent enriches herself through insider information and blackmail material so long as it doesn't go against the Interest or Security of the Empire.
2a. Many in the thread might, and seeming would rather have an agent who will not enrich him/herself. This is not necessarily an IC reason from Mathilde, who hired a thief who no doubt enriched himself in the process, to lead the Watch, and to be fair, many who hold this position admit this is coming from an OOC preference.
3. Supposed Mathilde, IC is interested in Gretel. Does she actually IC care that Gretel would use the position to make money? The answer is, no so long as Gretel remains within the articles of Magic. The moment Gretel crosses the line and Mathilde's internal informants manage to get word to her, is the moment Gretel is in very serious trouble, not just with Mathilde but with the Amethyst College who does take Article breaches exceptionally seriously.
3a. So one should ask, what is the risk that Gretel, despite the many, many reasons why this would be a horrible idea for her continued comfort and survival, would give in to the temptation of her position, and cross the line by Breaching the Articles, where her motivation of Wealth overules whatever compliance she has with the Articles of Magic. The most likely breach Gretel might make is Article 3:
"Every Magister of said Colleges must adhere to the laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire, regardless of the province, region, or city-state, just as any loyal citizen must, except that the Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic and perform such spells for the good of the Empire. "
Many of the ways Gretel can enrich herself through privilege access to information, such as Insider Trading may sound criminal to our modern eyes, but as far as I know, there is no evidence that there are imperial laws against Insider Trading. The fear then, is that Gretel would prove foolish, and choose to test the limits of Article 3, even though a privileged access to information gives her so many opportunities to enrich herself without actually breaching Article 3.
3b. Remember, the in-character concern for Mathilde, as far as we know, is not that her agents make themselves rich in their positions - this is Kosher if no vow of poverty binds them. Heck, Mathilde has enriched herself in her positions using legal fictions and technicalities, so she's not one to talk, though the thread has been careful to treat money not as something to be hoarded, but something to be used as expense accounts for things that do good for Mathilde as a Magister of the Empire and for Mathilde's current liege-lord.
3c. Therefore, the question Mathilde has to entertain is, though she likes Gretel and can probably have a very smooth working relationship with Gretel, and Gretel's capabilities are both impressive to begin with and will only grow further, would Gretel cross the line, likely through a Breach of Article 3 if she was put in a position of ample opportunities to enrich herself, both perfectly legal if scummy (hence no Article 3 breach), and outright illegal.
3d. Mathilde Honest would answer that the probability while low, is non-zero, even if this is a very stupid thing for Gretel to do, that would likely lead to her summary execution, if discovered. Not for amassing wealth, the Amethyst order is fine with this, but in breaching Article 3.
3e. There are many who would actually counter that Article 3 breaches are less likely to be persecuted or pursued by the Amethyst College, and it's none of the business of the Grey College whether Gretel enriches herself . It is Article 7 Breaches that the Amethyst Order is more likely to really clamp down on, because everyone's time is limited. If so, the argument of Gretel's unreliability actually becomes even weaker, since it's hard to see how running the EIC intel networks could tempt Gretel into breaching Article 7, under the watchful eyes of a Grey Magister that she saw crushed and dispelled Dhar to save her, short of Gretel being exposed to Infohazards, which is wildly improbable.
That being said, many people do have OOC moral objections in this thread, and while I think that IC objections are stronger arguments then subjective OOC preferences, everyone is ultimately free to vote according to OOC preferences. That alone makes advocating or defending Gretel, not strategic.
1. It is totally true that we, and Mathilde is concerned about the EIC misusing their powers. The objection here is not the EIC making money, the objection here is the EIC making money though certain specific means. We are concerned that the EIC acts against the interest of the Empire, and in pursuit of profit, consorts with Enemies of the Empire.
1a. As a corollary, we are less interested that the EIC achieves these profits by stacking the deck against the competition, and drawing/cultivating political influence. Make no mistakes, the EIC is a paragon of Crony Capitalism. But this is the Warhammer World, not the real world, so applying our real-world moral biases here is unwise.
2. Therefore, we are interested in a certain type of trustworthiness. I'm not sure whether IC, Mathilde objects to her agent using her position to make dosh, I think it's more likely that what Mathilde objects to is her agent acting against the Interest of the Empire to make said dosh. If her agent screws over merchants outside the EIC, one of the Intel options for the EIC offers that too, so it seems clear to me that Mathilde won't bat an eye if her agent enriches herself through insider information and blackmail material so long as it doesn't go against the Interest or Security of the Empire.
2a. Many in the thread might, and seeming would rather have an agent who will not enrich him/herself. This is not necessarily an IC reason from Mathilde, who hired a thief who no doubt enriched himself in the process, to lead the Watch, and to be fair, many who hold this position admit this is coming from an OOC preference.
3. Supposed Mathilde, IC is interested in Gretel. Does she actually IC care that Gretel would use the position to make money? The answer is, no so long as Gretel remains within the articles of Magic. The moment Gretel crosses the line and Mathilde's internal informants manage to get word to her, is the moment Gretel is in very serious trouble, not just with Mathilde but with the Amethyst College who does take Article breaches exceptionally seriously.
3a. So one should ask, what is the risk that Gretel, despite the many, many reasons why this would be a horrible idea for her continued comfort and survival, would give in to the temptation of her position, and cross the line by Breaching the Articles, where her motivation of Wealth overules whatever compliance she has with the Articles of Magic. The most likely breach Gretel might make is Article 3:
"Every Magister of said Colleges must adhere to the laws of Sigmar's Holy Empire, regardless of the province, region, or city-state, just as any loyal citizen must, except that the Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic and perform such spells for the good of the Empire. "
Many of the ways Gretel can enrich herself through privilege access to information, such as Insider Trading may sound criminal to our modern eyes, but as far as I know, there is no evidence that there are imperial laws against Insider Trading. The fear then, is that Gretel would prove foolish, and choose to test the limits of Article 3, even though a privileged access to information gives her so many opportunities to enrich herself without actually breaching Article 3.
3b. Remember, the in-character concern for Mathilde, as far as we know, is not that her agents make themselves rich in their positions - this is Kosher if no vow of poverty binds them. Heck, Mathilde has enriched herself in her positions using legal fictions and technicalities, so she's not one to talk, though the thread has been careful to treat money not as something to be hoarded, but something to be used as expense accounts for things that do good for Mathilde as a Magister of the Empire and for Mathilde's current liege-lord.
3c. Therefore, the question Mathilde has to entertain is, though she likes Gretel and can probably have a very smooth working relationship with Gretel, and Gretel's capabilities are both impressive to begin with and will only grow further, would Gretel cross the line, likely through a Breach of Article 3 if she was put in a position of ample opportunities to enrich herself, both perfectly legal if scummy (hence no Article 3 breach), and outright illegal.
3d. Mathilde Honest would answer that the probability while low, is non-zero, even if this is a very stupid thing for Gretel to do, that would likely lead to her summary execution, if discovered. Not for amassing wealth, the Amethyst order is fine with this, but in breaching Article 3.
3e. There are many who would actually counter that Article 3 breaches are less likely to be persecuted or pursued by the Amethyst College, and it's none of the business of the Grey College whether Gretel enriches herself . It is Article 7 Breaches that the Amethyst Order is more likely to really clamp down on, because everyone's time is limited. If so, the argument of Gretel's unreliability actually becomes even weaker, since it's hard to see how running the EIC intel networks could tempt Gretel into breaching Article 7, under the watchful eyes of a Grey Magister that she saw crushed and dispelled Dhar to save her, short of Gretel being exposed to Infohazards, which is wildly improbable.
That being said, many people do have OOC moral objections in this thread, and while I think that IC objections are stronger arguments then subjective OOC preferences, everyone is ultimately free to vote according to OOC preferences. That alone makes advocating or defending Gretel, not strategic.
While I'm not enthused with Julia, and I think the boat has already sailed, if the thread consensus is that we should recruit Julia, I won't mind backing it. There are many downsides though - the uncertainty of whether she would accept, the fact that we may be leaving Roswitta in the lurch, the fact that we know her loyalties are first and foremost to her house above all. These are all very legitimate concerns and objections, even though the prize is a very experienced handler who doesn't have to be grown through experience and exposure.
Pass for now, unless the thread climate is for Julia.
Pass for now, unless the thread climate is for Julia.
On one hand, the upkeep is 1CF per turn. On the other hand, this is a very, very generous upkeep rate, because a typical Perpetual cost twice the number of CF.
The 1CF fee is definitely for a reason: it buys the Grey College stamp of guarantee that the integrity of whoever we get is high enough that some of the most paranoid individuals in the Empire have deemed that said Perpetual may work outside and far from the College.
Whoever we get is bound and raised under an oath of poverty. He/she is exceptionally unlikely to enrich him/herself in his/her position because of said oath. Heck, pay him/her comfortable enough to settle any of his/her outstanding College debts and live a comfortable life with no real unmet needs, and odds are, he/she won't even embezzle at the customary rate.
That being said, whether he/she is as good as Gretel, has motivations that Mathilde can easily uncover and manage, and whether Mathilde can get along well with him/her are all open questions, quite possibly subjected to the Dice Roll.
My own suspicion is that the Grey College is going to send someone who is at least adequate and trainable for a newly minted Perpetual given what the EIC is, and I suspect very good rolls means that Algard passes us someone that is good enough to have the potential to become one of Algard's hands. Whether we get a prodigy or someone in over his/her head is probably roll dependant, but since we started out in over our heads, we can work to groom the latter as part of standard EIC half-action.
From that analysis, I suspect an argument against a Perpetual is not an argument against the notion of hiring a Perpetual, it's more closely an argument against the very idea of hiring a deputy, never mind the WoG bonuses he/she gives that will grow over time.
The 1CF fee is definitely for a reason: it buys the Grey College stamp of guarantee that the integrity of whoever we get is high enough that some of the most paranoid individuals in the Empire have deemed that said Perpetual may work outside and far from the College.
Whoever we get is bound and raised under an oath of poverty. He/she is exceptionally unlikely to enrich him/herself in his/her position because of said oath. Heck, pay him/her comfortable enough to settle any of his/her outstanding College debts and live a comfortable life with no real unmet needs, and odds are, he/she won't even embezzle at the customary rate.
That being said, whether he/she is as good as Gretel, has motivations that Mathilde can easily uncover and manage, and whether Mathilde can get along well with him/her are all open questions, quite possibly subjected to the Dice Roll.
My own suspicion is that the Grey College is going to send someone who is at least adequate and trainable for a newly minted Perpetual given what the EIC is, and I suspect very good rolls means that Algard passes us someone that is good enough to have the potential to become one of Algard's hands. Whether we get a prodigy or someone in over his/her head is probably roll dependant, but since we started out in over our heads, we can work to groom the latter as part of standard EIC half-action.
From that analysis, I suspect an argument against a Perpetual is not an argument against the notion of hiring a Perpetual, it's more closely an argument against the very idea of hiring a deputy, never mind the WoG bonuses he/she gives that will grow over time.
Basically, I think the TLDR is clear:
Don't skimp, don't build a shoddy foundation. 1 CF upkeep is very affordable for a Magister of Mathilde's standing, and I think it would definitely finally see how Mathilde would work with a sub-ordinate from the Grey College, as opposed to her superiors.
TLDR:
Grey Perpetual
Competency: Unknown, likely reasonable to mind-bogglingly incredible depending on roll.
Reliability: High enough to satisfy the Grey Order. That's saying alot.
Gretel
Competency: Guaranteed high stats and high potential, but untrained.
Reliability: As high as the probability she'd breach the Articles of Magic through her ambition.
Julia
Competency: High Stats, high experience. Previous relationship with Mathilde.
Reliability: Hahaha, she's loyal to her house first and foremost.
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- Location
- In Your DNA
Besides which, a nat 100 would have clearly meant that the dragon was in fact Snorri Whitebeard, who wandered up a mountain and got so damned cold that he became an ice dragon.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
Or intrernal politics of a land outside the scope of this quest; on a low roll, perhaps.
That aside, I have been torn between a high fidelity telekinis item for Wolf from either the colleges or the dwarves. While the college favour gsin is steady, with our higher dwarve favour and the possible favour drain of a Perpetual if we decide on one, I am confident I want a dwarve runic collar and am promoting that now in order to raise the chances of it bring voted for on the next oppertunity.
That aside, I would also like a to buy a harness with two rapid fire guns for Wolf to use in the event of mass ambush incase the circumstances make fleeing non viable.
On a final note, I regret we did not pay to get an enchanted MMAPP room from the college, similar to the cartorgpher action would have created, so I'mma vote for that too.
Edit: I also would like a second IC for the EIC stuff before we recruit handlers if possible, get them in before the structure is set up.
Edit: There is the consideration if Gretel might want the job or not if asked, but if not; we will probably choose the Perpetual option then
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- Location
- Singapore
Nah, a nat 100 would be the Dragon taking a shine to Mathilde, and setting Mathilde on the path to doing what Dragomas can do, and transform into a Dragon.
It's either forgoing roll bonuses from our info network (I really hope we don't skip outb on the bonuses, or more likely, if we do skip out, panic buy because of a fail that a roll bonus might have averted), recruiting Julia, recruiting Gretel, a Perpetual, or promoting from within the ranks of Handlers. I imagine the 1CF upkeep is there because there are very real advantages to choosing a Perpetual over other options. This is probably the first opportunity to use the Perpetual system at a discounted favor upkeep, so I'd say that not using it now, means it's unlikely it's ever going to be used in the foreseeable since the system was never tried before, and this is probably the most generous offer to try the system yet.
I guess one of the most obvious trade-offs is basically whether the risks Gretel breaches the AoM in our service, and the OOC distaste for hiring a thief is high enough to justify the 1CF cost. Because so long Gretel doesn't breach the AoM, from the IC in-universe perspective, everything is Kosher.
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- Location
- Spain
Now that you mention martial arts...
@BoneyM If we ever want to teach Mathilde unarmed combat, we would need to roll for the instructor, or since we are already acquainted with the Priest of Grungni who taught Johann how to punch (SO, YOU WISH TO LEARN TO PUNCH.) can we ask for him directly?
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan: Spoken Queekish v4 with Better Max
[X] Plan: Spoken Queekish v4 with Better Max and Better Paper
[X] Plan: Spoken Queekish v4 with Better Max and Better Paper
If you really hate how Mathilde has intact bones in her hands, you could have her study under that Priest.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Gretel is making more sense for me now.
- Location
- Spain
Well, I have heard that Shaolin Monks reinforce their bones by shattering them and healing afterwards... It could happen.
I am not saying that it is a good idea, but ic could happen.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Hold on, what? I don't think anyone has expressed significant concern about the EIC consorting with enemies of the Empire/committing treasonous acts in pursuit of profit. I've been one of the people banging the drum about keeping the EIC on a leash since October; my contention has always been that I am worried about the EIC solidifying power and influence in the form of co-opted political leadership and captive markets in ways that maximize its long-term profit but which are injurious to the long-term health and prosperity of the Empire. This doesn't require consorting with enemies of the Empire, it just requires that it act like a corporation whose only goal is "get big and make money."
The EIC needed a moral compass and we beat one into it, because none of the other leadership was going to provide that. Not because we thought they were going to sell out to enemies of the Empire, but because something with as much economic power as the EIC but without values aligned to our own was asking for trouble down the line.
The answer is in fact not no. There's a certain kind of mind set we'd like to instill in our agents and Gretel is the kind of person that would be a likely candidate to do a very good job eroding it as a boss. When you project an air of "Don't leave easy money on the table, as long as you don't cross the line what's the harm?" then your subordinates will pick up on that, some will do the same thing and eventually they get caught, compromised, and flipped.
- Location
- Singapore
Is this the IC contention or the OOC contention? The word I used here was And. Not or.
In any case, the fears were on a long term, institution scale level, not that any particular one individual specifically enrich themselves. I suppose you could be wary of Gretel's potential influence on the long run corporate culture, which would be a legitimate argument to not play silly buggers and pay 1CF for the Perpetual if you want the bonuses at all just to be safe. Because there will almost certainly come a time where forgoing a roll bonus would result in a fail, and fails, especially bad fails usually leads to massive pushes to do anything to prevent a repeat, see the aftermath of Karagril.
Yes, the risk exists that Gretel would taint the co-corporate culture we seek to instill. How high it is, is a matter of debate, which is why as I've said it's not strategic for my own personal positon to play devils' advocate for Gretel because she is controversial. 1CF upkeep Perpetual abolishes that particular type of risk you are talking about unless we rolled hilariously bad and said Perpetual somehow fooled all of the Grey College.
Scratch that, I'm not sure if it's even possible with a Nat 1 to get a man or woman of low integrity who convinced our order he/she has high integrity. Probably, Boney M would have to roll two or three Nat 1s in a roll before he goes out to the balcony and contemplates on whether to allow the improbable to happen.
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You seem to be conflating all objections against Gretel with people being blanket against an aide for some reason?
- Location
- Singapore
? No, an objection towards Gretel is not an objection towards an aide? I'm just saying look: the Grey Perpetual is almost guaranteed to have none of the potential baggage Gretel brings to the table, that is what 1CF upkeep buys Mathilde, since some people might potentially object to the favor drain and question what it actually buys when there is a "favor free" candidate with high stats.
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- Location
- Earth
Not that hard to think of options. We could get a hidden Black Magister, somebody suborned by the Skaven/Lahmians/Chaos/etc.