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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Do not dismiss the potential of funneling the Trolls towards the Under-Caldera or Rhyn, we have successfully used trolls before to destroy our enemies, and they are already on the move.
 
There's no version of the future where Kvinn-Wyr isn't taken by force at some point, short of the complete extinction of the Dwarf-controlled Karak Eight Peaks. You could argue that it might be more advantageous to do so later, but there's no selling the idea that they just don't need Kvinn-Wyr to the Dwarves, even if that's arguably true.
 
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veekie said:
Kyvnn Wyr is a massive future problem...provided its full of trolls. Taking it while its empty shrinks our defense lines and gives us an underground supply route to the under Citadel without having to pass the Karak Drazh Waagh press.
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Who do we redeploy over there to hold it, though? The Undumgi? Huzkul? We kind of need the Undumgi to soak losses for Angrund, if the fight goes that way, to my mind.

And what's to stop the trolls from rolling over whoever we station in Kvinn-Wyr without the wall maze defense, if they come back?
 
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veekie said:
Thats kind of why I think we should hit the Caldera actually. Whethee we keep it or not, having an expected defense line there would bounce routing Mors BACK into Red Fang
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This seems optimistic. We were told Under-Caldera is a warren of skaven dug tunnels mainly. I see the more likely scenario as being a chaotic fight in Under-Caldera while the orcs split between harrying Mors and pressing Upper-Karagrils defenses.

The ping-pong strat has a higher potential upside maybe, but the reliable play of just occupying Under-karagril while its almost undefended seems better to me.
 
das_slash said:
Eshin surviving is actually a good thing now, as it would either force them to keep fighting Mors (2 is war) or have them stop attacking us (3 is peace).

Either way we want Mors to do the fighting there.
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I'm proposing to go all in and try to wipe Eshin and Mors - and possibly Skyre afterwards.

Mors is for the first time vulnerable, their armies are going to be depleted. Eshin is in an even worse position. Right now there's an unique opportunity of dealing with the skaven of Karak Eight Peaks in a relatively not too costly way.
 
veekie said:
Okay based on the information:
-We don't want to hit Under-Karagril, Karak Drazh is attacking it HARD, better to let the Skaven soak the casualties than for us to.
-We want to hit Kvynn-Wyr. Its uncontested, we just need to move siege engines in with a garrison force. This is basically the only way we're going to pull it off without Irondrakes and a Slayer Throng.
-We want to hit Clan Mors within the next 2 hours, but we want to hit as hard as possible in that instant.


...actually, does anyone think cleaving Clan Mors into two unconnected portions might be to our benefit?
They're committed FULLY into Eshin and Karagril. And in Karagril only in one direction. That means the Caldera is basically empty because nobody but dwarves can attack it and obviously dwarves wouldn't do it.
Take the wide open Caldera, fortify the perimeter while Mors is too stuck in to Yar and Karagril to do anything about it.
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Thinking the Caldera is empty seems folly.

The entire Skaven paradigm is "we have reserves", so I would be rather surprised if Mors didn't have troops in reserve in the Caldera to respond to either Under-Karagril getting overwhelmed or an assault on the Under-Citadel. Mors isn't stupid, desperate, yes, but not stupid. We already know they work on an elastic defense system, Mors wouldn't attack Eshin without at least some troops in reserve, unless they had a sudden bout of stupidity.

If we launch an assault on the Under-Citadel only, it's likely those reserves will be sent against us. I'd argue that a full assault on the Under-Citadel coupled with a raid-and-withdraw on Under-Karagril would be best. No matter what kind of reserves Mors has they can't be everywhere at once and Under-Karagril being overwhelmed and becoming a highway for endless hordes of Greenskins right into the Under-Caldera would rather be more threatening than the Under-Citadel being taken by the Dwarves, which would commit the reserves to Under-Karagril.

Result:
- The Under-Citadel assault would contend only with the Under-Citadel defenses and no or lesser reinforcements, which would make things easier.
- The Under-Karagril defenses become a much bigger problem for Mors and they have to commit their reserves there, not to us.
- Whether Under-Karagril folds or not, things would be more advantageous for us: if they hold, the reserves will need to be committed to it and will allow us to set up defenses. If they fold, the Green Tide would be attritioned by the Mors defenses, the Mors reserves and would attack a Dwarf Throng that has retired behind a defensive position in Karagril and the Karagril-Lhune Underway with Kazador and a Runelord, which would be a viable position. Under-Karagril would still be unoccupied and Mors, with their chronic lack of territory would likely extend there next turn to recoup losses rather than attack a fortified dwarven position in the Under-Citadel, especially after the losses they would have suffered during the assault against Eshin.
 
Guile said:
Who do we redeploy over there to hold it, though? The Undumgi? Huzkul?

And what's to stop the trolls from rolling over them without the wall maze defense, if they come back?
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Trolls are hard to PRY of tunnels but are remarkably easier to KEEP out of tunnels, where you have fixed emplacement artillery drop them before they can get into melee range.

I'd redeploy Undumgi over, pikes actually work great on trolls, it keeps them too far away to reliably puke all over you and murder you horribly, and does massive stabby damage. Trolls are too dumb to go for flanking moves, negating the weakness of pikes in tunnels.

Undumgi and the halfling skirmishers would be my pick for keeping them down. Ranged weapons and reach weapons are what the doctor ordered for managing the small amount of leftover trolls.
 
Zero Gravitas said:
I'm proposing to go all in and try to wipe Eshin and Mors - and possibly Skyre afterwards.

Mors is for the first time vulnerable, their armies are going to be depleted. Eshin is in an even worse position. Right now there's an unique opportunity of dealing with the skaven of Karak Eight Peaks in a relatively not too costly way.
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That's not feasible right now, the only way I see this happening is if:

We take Under-Citadel without too many casualties.
We take Under-Caldera without too many casualties.
Drazh takes out Mors in Under-Karagril but we can break their advance through subterfuge.
We take Wyr with the Undumgi and fortify it.
Mhonar is not bad news.
We can move trolls elsewhere, ideally into Rhyn.
Mors takes out Eshin on their own, with even worse casualties than the current estimate.
The Waaagh dies without putting up a fight (Eye of Gazul + Runelords).
The Dragon dies or it's not an ass.
Then we would be in a position where I would consider the casualties from cleaning out the remains of Mors army worth it.
 
Guile said:
Who do we redeploy over there to hold it, though? The Undumgi? Huzkul? We kind of need the Undumgi to soak losses for Angrund, if the fight goes that way, to my mind.

And what's to stop the trolls from rolling over whoever we station in Kvinn-Wyr without the wall maze defense, if they come back?
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We could use the field wardens. Titus is a mountianer. They scouted it out before and we aren't really using them in the plans I see right now. Shift the human mercs over to the citadel if you are really worried about orcs pouring out of Karag Rhyn in an hour.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
If we were to occupy it right now, I think the immediate play is to just send over the siege weapons and a token force of the Undumgi (500-1,000ish), that would be enough to see off any lone trolls stumbling back, if they return in force we just have them run.
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Be a shame to lose those siege weapons if they have to run, though.
veekie said:
Undumgi and the halfling skirmishers would be my pick for keeping them down. Ranged weapons and reach weapons are what the doctor ordered for managing the small amount of leftover trolls.
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If this is paired with the Under-Citadel push, then Citadel would literally be manned by Kragg the Grim and no one else.
 
I lied.
BoneyM said:
- With the remaining Trolls isolated to the warpstone near the peak and the cisterns, a force could take most of the mountain without facing them and set up defensive positions against them. You can move the Kvinn-Wyr Bolt Throwers or any other siege weapons (except the ones facing Death Pass) to Kvinn-Wyr to hem in the trolls or to guard the approach from Karag Mhonar.
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[ ] Plan It's Free Real Estate
-[ ] Advance from the Citadel into the Under-Citadel, the eastern fringe of Clan Mors' territory, with: Clan Angrund, Karak Izor immigrants, The Undumgi, Braganza's Besiegers
-[ ] Mathilde will command the attack: Under-Citadel
-[ ] Advance over the Eastern Valley into Kvinn-Wyr, which is mostly empty of trolls, with: Border Prince mercenaries
-[ ] Move the Bolt Throwers elsewhere: Kvinn-Wyr garrison
-[ ] Under-Citadel
-[ ] Under-Caldera
-[ ] Karag Mhonar

Punch Under-Citadel out with Ranger support. Take a free Kvinn-Wyr with the mercs, move up the siege, and scout Karag Mhonar so we get warning if it looks like they might head our way. Scout Under-Caldera so that we can plan a raid on it for next turn. Leave Under-Karagril be for now. Undumgi should have the headroom and wide-open spaces needed to fight effectively in Under-Citadel, though I don't think that's true for Under-Caldera's tunnel fighting.
 
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