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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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TotallyNotEvil said:
I ask that you, who's made so far into the discussion, bear with me for a minute.

There are two ways to approach the Sword issue: mechanics and narrative. Some points blur the line, but I will try to start with the former and end up with the later.

The fist thing realizes upon comparing the WHFB stats of humans and virtually everything else, is that humans suck.

Their Strenght and Toughness caps at a measly 4, Karl Franz, the goddamn designated-protagonist and Emperor, has a Weapon Skill of 6. Their Initiative is low to middling, their movement nothing to talk about.

So, how do human heroes kill dragons and daemons and Giants and Orc Boss and all sorts of monsters?

Gear. Most notably, Ghal Maraz and the Runefangs. There weapons turn a statline that, in another army, would be a elite mook/low level hero, and turn them into Everchosen killers.

That's how humans, elves and dwarves do it. Their equipment makes the monster's tough hide irrelevant, its towering constitution worthless, and might well slay them in a single blow.

Now, Mathilde already has Hero-level stats for a human. When we reach Advanced Greatswords, she will be sitting in human Lord range. She is perfectly worthy, skill-wise, of the sort of gear that elevates humans to monster slayers.

Now, like I said, gear adresses the fundamental imbalance between humans and monsters. How it does that is simple: Strenght.

Or, more accurately, they make it so the human's low Strenght is either remedied, or made irrelevant. Runefangs, Ghal Maraz, Teclis' sword- they all do it.

Problem is, it's flat out impossible to make more Runefangs or Ghal Marazes, and Teclis isn't about to sit in a workshop all day turning out magic swords.

Besides that, the dwarves need gromril to put their strongest runes in, and that's very, very hard to come by.

These day's best runesmithing is only capable of a third rate imitation of what those weapons of legend can do. They are nice, but not even in the same neighborhood.

Enter Kragg's Master Rune: all attacks are made at Strenght 10. For those who don't know, that's a ten out of ten.

It's brilliant, because you effectively ignore armor, as there is no armor capable of providing resistance against that much Strenght, and almost wound automatically: even against ancient dragons, you only need a 2+ on a d6.

For a wimpy S4 human (or an even windier S2 Elf, like Teclis, whose sword does exactly that, ignore armor and wound on 2+), that rune alone is a dream come true. And, due the magic of runesmithing, that's only a third of the weapon's potential runeslots used.

You might be thinking, "but TNE, we just need that S10 thingy and we are fine, right? Kragg steps in at 15, so that's good enough". Yeah, that'd be true... If Boney hadn't said that a 15 favor weapon, on a Kragg scale, is merely average, something he bangs out in a long afternoon. Does that sound like a product that'd bear his masterwork?

Consider furthermore that we want a sword. That's another tick on the "this is on the mediocre side of average", again on the Kragg scale.

Lastly, the weapon would be made out of steel. And I doubt the finest steel in the world would tolerate the kind of abuse a S10 rune would cause. Another ding against a fifteen favors weapon cutting it.

So, 20 favor? It's a big maybe, on one hand, this is one of his finer works, on the other, his rune is considered "experimental" by himself, and the metal issue arises again. And, at that point, it's a short hop to 25.

It's fundamentally a good investment to spend favor in big items whenever we can: we have very limited item slots, and things like the sword can only be bought in singular lump sums. We can spend twenty five favor on a library without blinking, but that's going to be not only a very small incremental bonus, but it will end up exactly the same as twenty five purchase of one favor.

Whenever we are comitting more than a tiny bit of favor to something, we should weight it against just taking the plunge and getting top-shelf, because the penny-pinching is enormously costly in opportunity cost. Because anything better has to retread ground.

Think of the possibilities the ability to shatter a fortress' gates with the pommel of our sword would bring. The mayhem we could cause, the targets we could take.

There's more. The assassination angle is so often brought up because it causes a disproportionate amount of damage to the enemy, but not only that, it's by far a more dangerous proposition than an open battle.

Conterintuitive? Maybe, but the Seed changes the equation. On a battlefield, there's no shortage of allies to fight at our side, or for the enemy that fells us to focus on. It gives time and room for the Seed to bring us back. On an assassination gone wrong, unless we are very lucky, our target who turned the tables on us would just kee stabbing our twitching corpse until the Seed runs out.

And Mathilde has never shied away from either battle or infiltration. The later is how we've made such enormous contributions to the campaign. So every little bit that might help her survive the incredibly dangerous task she so often assigns to herself is worth it.

Now, if you aren't interest in mechanics beyond "it will be killy", there's the narrative side to consider.

In portuguese, we have a saying: "fechar com chave de ouro", which roughly translates to "to end it on a high note", but perhaps more intense.

This entire Expedition has been nothing short of record breaking. It's been legendary deed after legendary deed, it exceed the expectations of the most hopeful of optimists to such a degree that it shifted the entirety of the Dwarven political landscape.

And, in one of the sweetest GM comments, on answering "what does our 57 reputation mean", he explained it beautifully and succintly: "to anyone who knows about it, it's a tale of Belengar Ironhammer, Kragg the Grim and Mathilde Weber".

I don't know about you, but reading that felt awesome.

And now, it's seems that by divine providence, things have aligned: we've found a big chunk of ancient gromril.

Consider the following QM statements:
- Gromril, while insanely valuable, is worth the most as a symbol.
- Weapons are what legends are built upon.
-- The sort of weapon that does that is the sort that's forged by a master among masters, a legend himself, using legendary materials.
- One of the three members of the legend of Retaking of Karak 8 Peaks is a legendary runesmith.
- The Human Hero of K8P just found an ancient, battered set of gromril armor. A chunk of legendary material, fit to be reforged.

I don't think I have to spell out any further. "The Dwarven King commissions a legendary weapon out of gratitude to his unexpected friend, the Human Hero" is literally the founding legend of the Empire.

A 25 favor weapon is a legendary piece of artifice, requiring a legendary smith and legendary materials. Most of all, a legendary weapon requires a legend.

We have the Legend of Mathilde Weber, Hero of Karak 8 Peaks. We have a legendary smith, Kragg the Grim, also a hero of the reclamation. And we have King Belengar Ironhammer, filled with gratitude so deep that he, a Dwarven King, swore to move mountains to see a wish of ours come true, whom was just handed a significant amount of legendary material by Mathilde.

This is how you turn a success story into a legend that will be spoken for the rest of Karaz Ankor's existence. The story of reclamation, unlikely valorous allies, heroic deeds and legendary feats, a sweeping victory of such magnitude that it gave a spark of hope to an entire race.

You tie the cornerstones of said legend into the making of a weapon, because nothing stokes the fires of the heart like a legendary weapon that ties the tale together.

It's the chave de ouro, the golden key, the perfect high note. I urge you, vote to reforge the glory of the past into a symbol of the future. Vote to found a legend.
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Sigmars Empire was pounded into the Tribes of Man with a Hammer. Matilda's Empire of the South carved from many races with a Sword.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.

[X] [ENCHANTMENT] Item to communicate with The We.
[X] [RUNE] A 25 favour weapon to commemorate Mathilde's part the in retaking of Karak Eight-Peaks.
[X] [RUNE] 25 favour sword
[X] [LIBRARY] Extensive library of romance novels

I like legend more, but approval-vote for sword in case legend won't get traction. Will revise tomorrow morning.
 
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Problem with going for a legend is that Mathilde will not be doing anything that needs legendary item. No heroic battles. No personal defence against of great evil. No changing tide of battle. Getting something like that and not putting it to suitable use is a bit of insult. Having legendary weapom will make people expect Mathilde to do legendary deeds. Not something we would want.
 
ichypa said:
Dhar: Not even once.
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Give it a dozen years and half a dozen experiments and we'll talk.
picklepikkl said:
I'm honestly shocked by how little traction the knight has gotten and how enthusiastic everyone is about Badass Merchant Guy. This is probably a combination of "people who know more about the setting have reservations about the Brettonian thing" and "people who were hyped about Steward and expanding the EIC wanting another mercantile type around."

But she's so cool. Mad respect for someone whose response to society censuring her for trying to be a good person was to flip them off and do the same thing, only harder and for other people.
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At least she's acquired some votes.

Oswald Oswaldson, sons of Oswalds dating back to the last Vampire War, when Oswald Sr. chopped off a ghoul's head so hard a Morrite priestess jumped his bones and started the lineage.

That guy has, I think, two votes, and I'm one of them.
 
I'll be honest I'm significantly less interested in a 25 favour sword for out of quest reasons.

A 15 favour belt was beyond anything we could have imagined. It made Mathilde immune to Dhar. We'd never have even considered something like that possible. 25 favours on anything must be massively beyond even that.

And that's the problem. I worry that a 25 Favour sword is essentially a capstone, making Mathilde so badass that adding on qyish juice manipulation or Theurgy would take her into unplayable territory. Or make it necessary to drastically upscale the threats Mathilde is dealing with, getting the really heavy hitters after us right now.

People keep talking about a 25 favour sword as a game changer, but I'm worried it'll become a game definer, or even a game ender.

"Should I use risky magic or hit it with my super sword?" Hit it with the super sword, obviously.

A 25 favour sword feels like a capstone to Mathilde's journey. And if we have to have a final capstone then discount high magic, or super enchanting, or theurgy seem much more enticing to me.

I may not be being very rational here, and I'm sure BoneyM will do their best. But that's how I feel.
 
primemountain said:
I get you think it's cool, but chill, eh?

You're acting as if Mat is the hero of the story. And she is, of our story. She'll certainly have a prominent place in the stories told.

But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousands who fought there. So chill, ok?

She a hero of the story of K8P, but not "The Hero". That's almost certain to end up being Belegar. He is King after all, that has perks. Though Runelords are kings as well, so Kragg might take if for splitting the heavens and the earth. It was certainly impressive enough.
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I don't see the sword as just about Mathilde being a hero, though. It is in and of itself evidence in support of King Belegar's philosophy—that even in these latter, lesser days, old glories can be reclaimed and new wonders forged. It works really well as a thematic capstone to his character arc as well as ours.
 
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [LIBRARY] Extensive library of romance novels
 
Just to note for everyone, but the item vote doesn't technically open for another fiveminutes...

But I'm voting anyway, as I should go to bed soon.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] None

As for the items, we've loads of research to do, and using these items in series would be incredibly useful. We don't want to keep Max or Johann hanging around to cast them in the couple of minutes that we get stuck on a turn of phrase in a paper. Eight favours is relatively cheap compared to the amount I think we'd need to spend on library items to equal the bonus I'd expect to get from them. They also aren't only useful on paper writing. If we ever want to snip or demolish something, or sneak into somewhere when we have prep time, they'd probably be invaluable, and we can't sneak a pair of Gold Wizards along with us.

Edit: BoneyM clarified that mental magic items were a bad idea.
 
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[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.

[/] [RUNE] 25 Favour weapon

I agree that the armour should be reforged into something legendary I'm just not sure if it should be a sowrd or something that A dwarf would wield. I'm just thinking that it should be something either man or dwarf would wield completes the message it'd send.
 
DiceOfStupidity said:
Problem with going for a legend is that Mathilde will not be doing anything that needs legendary item. No heroic battles. No personal defence against of great evil. No changing tide of battle. Getting something like that and not putting it to suitable use is a bit of insult. Having legendary weapom will make people expect Mathilde to do legendary deeds. Not something we would want.
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This is a concern I have too, at least so long as we frame it as part of a legend. A 25 favour sword given because 'this woman has done the dwarf race an incredible favour and wants the best sword possible', on the other hand, I'd have no issue with.
 
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primemountain said:
I get you think it's cool, but chill, eh?

You're acting as if Mat is the hero of the story. And she is, of our story. She'll certainly have a prominent place in the stories told.

But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousands who fought there. So chill, ok?

She a hero of the story of K8P, but not "The Hero". That's almost certain to end up being Belegar. He is King after all, that has perks. Though Runelords are kings as well, so Kragg might take if for splitting the heavens and the earth. It was certainly impressive enough.
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BoneyM has explicitly told us that as far as the dwarves are concerned, there are three heroes of the retaking of Karak Eight Peaks. Belegar, Kragg the Grim, and Mathilde. Then there are some other guys as well.
 
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Alratan said:
BoneyM has explicitly told us that as far as the dwarves are concerned, there are three heroes of the retaking of karak Eight Peaks. Belegar, Kragg the Grimm, and Mathilde. Then there are some other guys as well.
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Essentially K8P is the Siege of Troy and we're one of the protagonists.

Edit: Except we shanked a god and killed Paris, twice.
 
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Humbaba said:
I'll be honest I'm significantly less interested in a 25 favour sword for out of quest reasons.

A 15 favour belt was beyond anything we could have imagined. It made Mathilde immune to Dhar. We'd never have even considered something like that possible. 25 favours on anything must be massively beyond even that.

And that's the problem. I worry that a 25 Favour sword is essentially a capstone, making Mathilde so badass that adding on qyish juice manipulation or Theurgy would take her into unplayable territory. Or make it necessary to drastically upscale the threats Mathilde is dealing with, getting the really heavy hitters after us right now.

People keep talking about a 25 favour sword as a game changer, but I'm worried it'll become a game definer, or even a game ender.

"Should I use risky magic or hit it with my super sword?" Hit it with the super sword, obviously.

A 25 favour sword feels like a capstone to Mathilde's journey. And if we have to have a final capstone then discount high magic, or super enchanting, or theurgy seem much more enticing to me.

I may not be being very rational here, and I'm sure BoneyM will do their best. But that's how I feel.
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Fair enough. I'll put it on the list.
Alratan said:
The sabotage/anti-fortification potential of a really good weapon.
Other things can be bought incrementally as we get more favours over time, a super weapon has to be bought at once.
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I already had those points in mind, but I've clarified them,
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Soizic, Bretonnian Questing Knight
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.

As for the morotorium stuff...
Still undecided on rune sword, so no vote on that yet
If i recall right for the spider enchantment, boney said that that would almost certainly be our task for next turn and likely include trying to get the enchantment as a karak purchase instead of using our personal favors, so no enchantment
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase.
For library i'd likely go along with any suggestions for good updates on productive books, but i also fully support letting mathilde indulge in some guilty pleasures with her enormous wealth :p
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.

Edit: I'd personally rather stick to just extensivehuman and dwarf romance novels, rather than the 'esoteric' level for imperial romance and the tilean and brettonnian ones, but switching to the leading library plan anyway
 
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[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.

[X] [RUNE] No purchase.
Having thought about it, if we get a sword I'd like it to be a 25 Favour sword... but I'd rather not get another sword just yest. We're settling into a long period of study, and will doubtless have many fancy things to spend our favours on - such as pimping out our Wizard Tower. Leave the sword purchase for later.

Alternatively, there is an argument for learning to wield an Greataxe instead, and getting a 25 favour one. For roughly ~3 actions of training (maybe less, given that some Greatsword knowledge might carry over) we can get what would truly be the peak of Dawi craftsmanship.
 
S] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [RUNE] A 25 favour weapon to commemorate Mathilde's part the in retaking of Karak Eight-Peaks.
[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.
[x] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.
 
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primemountain said:
But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousand who fought there.
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Mathilde still contributed vastly more than anyone other than maybe Kragg in the actual battles. As king and organiser of the expedition Belegar takes first spot but Mathilde just can't go lower than number 3 because there's just nobody else who did anything impactful enough.
 
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [LIBRARY] Extensive library of romance novels

I want the sword. I want the spider friends. I want more trashy romance novels.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Having thought about it, if we get a sword I'd like it to be a 25 Favour sword... but I'd rather not get another sword just yest. We're settling into a long period of study, and will doubtless have many fancy things to spend our favours on - such as pimping out our Wizard Tower. Leave the sword purchase for later.

Alternatively, there is an argument for learning to wield an Greataxe instead, and getting a 25 favour one. For roughly ~3 actions of training (maybe less, given that some Greatsword knowledge might carry over) we can get what would truly be the peak of Dawi craftsmanship.
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I would feel less comfortable going for weapon later, actually. Now, it works as a capstone to the reclamation. Later, it wouldn't have the same kind of narrative weight.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.

[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons

[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No Purchase
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword
[X] [RUNE] A 25 favour sword to commemorate Mathilde's part the in retaking of Karak Eight-Peaks.
 
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Four horu moratorium is up, so adding the "no purchase" votes for library, rune, and enchantment.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [UNDUMGI] Oswald Oswaldson, Imperial veteran
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.

[X] [LIBRARY] No purchase.

[X] [RUNE] No purchase.

[X] [ENCHANTMENT] No purchase.
 
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