Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Still half a dozen pages behind the thread but want to update my vote.

I was against a runic weapon. Doubly so a 25 Favour weapon. Truthfully I still am against getting such a weapon. However…
A 25 Favour legend? That might be worth it.
A Weapon commemorating the reconquest of K8P. Forged by the great Rune Lord who aided in the retaking, using gromril recovered from the Karak and wielded by the other great hero of K8P, Dame Mathilde. That is something to brighten this Grim and Dark setting.

Orthodox Bretonnian doctrine is that women cannot be knights.
Orthodox Bretonnian doctrine is that mercenaries are scum and not to be associated with.
Soizic is a woman. Was a merc until recently. And yet is a knight. (She was also generated by a 90+ roll.) I somehow doubt she is going to be anti-Ranald. Particularly after learning that one of his aspects is dedicated to standing against injustices like her being bared from knighthood.
We intend to rebrand Ranald, de-emphasising his less socially acceptable aspects.
Should we not grant Soizic the chance to rebrand The Lady?

Spider translators are apparently cheap. Yay.
Still think it would be best for them to prove themselves before asking for full integration. Also best keep them away from the only 'sometimes-food' greenskins.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [ENCHANTMENT] Item to communicate with The We.

[X] [UNDUMGI] Soizic, Bretonnian Questing Knight

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.
[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword

[X] [LIBRARY] No purchase.
 
If we're doing labelled votes, can we vote for [] [RUNE] and [] [Enchantments] without overwriting our votes on other things we made in earlier posts?
 
So, about the actual vote - all my choices gobalong eith the established consensus, apart from the armor.

And that's because I am very much in the ubersword camp.

I don't care about it's mechanical benefits, though, all I want is the narrative weight of "and the Kragg the Grim, the greatest living runelord of Karaz Ankor forged one of his greatest masterpieces". Mechanically, it could be equivalent to a 15 point one for all I care.

I really want an embodyment of the Legend of 8 Peaks, something which will tie the King, Runelord and Wizard into a single whole.

And reclaimed gromril as a material is just the icing on the narrative cake.


It may have mechanical benefits. There are those who are going to vote for the ubersword because of this, and they may be right. I may even jump into the discussion to argue in favor of the mechanical benefits


But the real reason I want this sword is the emerging legend.

[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[X] [UNDUMGI] Oswald Oswaldson, Imperial veteran

[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.

[X] [RUNE] 25 Favour Sword

[X] [RUNE] A 25 favour sword to commemorate Mathilde's part the in retaking of Karak Eight-Peaks.


[X] [ENCHANTMENT] An item of Talk With Beast for Mathilde's personal use. (3 Favours)

[COMMENTED OUT] [LIBRARY] No purchase.

[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Daemons.

[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons



[X] [LIBRARY] Imperial Texts: Extensive/Esoteric Skaven, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Greenskin Magic, Antiquarian Grey Magic (2 College Favor), Extensive Amber Magic, Extensive/Esoteric Romance Novels, Extensive/Esoteric Linguistics, Extensive Warpstone, Extensive Morr, Extensive Karaz Ankor. Dwarf Texts: Extensive Greenskin Magic, Extensive Skaven Magic, Extensive Romance Novels, Extensive Linguistics, Extensive Daemons. Brettonian Texts: Extensive Romance Novels. Tilean Texts: Extensive Romance Novels.
 
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There's a fair argument that Malekith is insane tbh, but I swear I remember reading somewhere that Dhar does affect Elves, just not in quite the same way. And I still find the idea that the Wood Elves are the "grey" faction of Elves very irritating.

They've jumped between good guys that have been unfortunately corrupted to capricious murderous shits that some times do good because of their nature bent and back a few times. Some of it's due to the lore history of Ariel taking in the super corrupt beastman lord that's primary purpose is to corrupt the court of the wood elves but they're also kind of assholes in general to wanderers in the woods just because depending on the edition.
 
I wonder if it'll be possible to proliferate knowledge of the second secret, without hinting at the first? Because if knowing the second comes part and parcel with knowledge of the first then the risk of people going power mad is just too high, but if there's some way to pass on the second as a completely separate thing it'd be a huge boon for any magic users going up against necromancers or other dhar users.
 
I do have concerns that the Bretonian will oppress peasants, stifle trade, and crack down on Ranald worship.

Then again, if she was a typical Bretonian in those ways, I suspect Matilde would have weeded her our already.

Do we have any insight into her views on commoners, trade, or Ranald, @BoneyM?
 
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I wonder if it'll be possible to proliferate knowledge of the second secret, without hinting at the first? Because if knowing the second comes part and parcel with knowledge of the first then the risk of people going power mad is just too high, but if there's some way to pass on the second as a completely separate thing it'd be a huge boon for any magic users going up against necromancers or other dhar users.

The colleges of magic probably have that secret of Dhar under lock and key for the Wizard lords.
 
ot all humans - Nagash wasn't affected that way for example.

Nagash presumably wasn't using actually using Dhar though. Initially he was using Nehekharan Theurgy, and later on Shyish after he'd invented Necromancy. He would always have had a buffer. Later on when he started eating warpstone I think he'd already transformed himself and stopped being a human, using the same principles the Lahmians later used to create vampires based on refining work.
 
If Mathilde keeps stacking up insights on dispelling assorted kinds of magic, the Winds are going to curl up and cry around her the same way they do around Kragg.

At least her demonstrated tendency for explosive dispellation (wether on castles with cannons, or on waaaaaaagh magic) might provide a bit of cover if anyone ever notices her pulling it on Dhar effects and asking questions like "Hey, Mathilde, how'd you just detonate that sorcerer's army with a counterspell?" or "Hey, Mathilde, how'd you just dispell Naggaroth explosively?" or similarly awkward questions. No 'sudden insights' that merit close investigation, just wacky hi-jinks from Magical Mathilde and her unpredictable counterspells.
 
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I wonder if it'll be possible to proliferate knowledge of the second secret, without hinting at the first? Because if knowing the second comes part and parcel with knowledge of the first then the risk of people going power mad is just too high, but if there's some way to pass on the second as a completely separate thing it'd be a huge boon for any magic users going up against necromancers or other dhar users.

The GM confirmed that the Second Secret builds on the First
 
I ask that you, who's made so far into the discussion, bear with me for a minute.

There are two ways to approach the Sword issue: mechanics and narrative. Some points blur the line, but I will try to start with the former and end up with the later.

The fist thing one realizes upon comparing the WHFB stats of humans and virtually everything else, is that humans suck.

Their Strenght and Toughness caps at a measly 4, Karl Franz, the goddamn designated-protagonist and Emperor, has a Weapon Skill of 6. Their Initiative is low to middling, their movement nothing to talk about.

So, how do human heroes kill dragons and daemons and Giants and Orc Bosses and all sorts of monsters?

Gear. Most notably, Ghal Maraz and the Runefangs. Their weapons take a statline that, in another army, would be a elite mook/low level hero, and turns them into Everchosen killers.

That's how humans, elves and dwarves do it. Their equipment makes the monster's tough hide irrelevant, its towering constitution worthless, and might well slay them in a single blow.

Now, Mathilde already has Hero-level stats for a human. When we reach Advanced Greatswords, she will be sitting in human Lord range. She is perfectly worthy, skill-wise, of the sort of gear that elevates humans to monster slayers.

Now, like I said, gear adresses the fundamental imbalance between humans and monsters. How it does that is simple: Strenght.

Or, more accurately, they make it so the human's low Strenght is either remedied, or made irrelevant. Runefangs, Ghal Maraz, Teclis' sword- they all do it.

Problem is, it's flat out impossible to make more Runefangs or Ghal Marazes, and Teclis isn't about to sit in a workshop all day turning out magic swords.

Besides that, the dwarves need gromril to put their strongest runes in, and that's very, very hard to come by.

These day's best runesmithing is only capable of a third rate imitation of what those weapons of legend can do. They are nice, but not even in the same neighborhood.

Enter Kragg's Master Rune: all attacks are made at Strenght 10. For those who don't know, that's a ten out of ten.

It's brilliant, because you effectively ignore armor, as there is no armor capable of providing resistance against that much Strenght, and almost wound automatically: even against ancient dragons, you only need a 2+ on a d6.

For a wimpy S4 human (or an even wimpier S2 Elf, like Teclis, whose sword does exactly that, ignore armor and wound on 2+), that rune alone is a dream come true. And, due the magic of runesmithing, that's only a third of the weapon's potential runeslots used.

You might be thinking, "but TNE, we just need that S10 thingy and we are fine, right? Kragg steps in at 15, so that's good enough". Yeah, that'd be true... If Boney hadn't said that a 15 favor weapon, on a Kragg scale, is merely average, something he bangs out in a long afternoon. Does that sound like a product that'd bear his masterwork?

Consider furthermore that we want a sword. That's another tick on the "this is on the mediocre side of average", again on the Kragg scale.

Lastly, the weapon would be made out of steel. And I doubt the finest steel in the world would tolerate the kind of abuse a S10 rune would cause. Another ding against a fifteen favors weapon cutting it.

So, 20 favor? It's a big maybe, on one hand, this is one of his finer works, on the other, his rune is considered "experimental" by himself, and the metal issue arises again. And, at that point, it's a short hop to 25.

It's fundamentally a good investment to spend favor in big items whenever we can: we have very limited item slots, and things like the sword can only be bought in singular lump sums. We can spend twenty five favor on a library without blinking, but that's going to be not only a very small incremental bonus, but it will end up exactly the same as twenty five purchase of one favor.

Whenever we are comitting more than a tiny bit of favor to something, we should weight it against just taking the plunge and getting top-shelf, because the penny-pinching is enormously costly in opportunity cost. Because anything better has to retread ground.

Think of the possibilities the ability to shatter a fortress' gates with the pommel of our sword would bring. The mayhem we could cause, the targets we could take.

There's more. The assassination angle is so often brought up because it causes a disproportionate amount of damage to the enemy, but not only that, it's by far a more dangerous proposition than an open battle.

Conterintuitive? Maybe, but the Seed changes the equation. On a battlefield, there's no shortage of allies to fight at our side, or for the enemy that fells us to focus on. It gives time and room for the Seed to bring us back. On an assassination gone wrong, unless we are very lucky, our target who turned the tables on us would just keep stabbing our twitching corpse until the Seed runs out.

And Mathilde has never shied away from either battle or infiltration. The later is how we've made such enormous contributions to the campaign. So every little bit that might help her survive the incredibly dangerous task she so often assigns to herself is worth it.

Now, if you aren't interest in mechanics beyond "it will be killy", there's the narrative side to consider.

In portuguese, we have a saying: "fechar com chave de ouro", which roughly translates to "to close it with a gold key", or "to end it on a high note", but perhaps more intense.

This entire Expedition has been nothing short of record breaking. It's been legendary deed after legendary deed, it exceed the expectations of the most hopeful of optimists to such a degree that it shifted the entirety of the Dwarven political landscape.

And, in one of the sweetest GM comments, on answering "what does our 57 reputation mean", he explained it beautifully and succintly: "to anyone who knows about it, it's a tale of Belengar Ironhammer, Kragg the Grim and Mathilde Weber".

I don't know about you, but reading that felt awesome.

And now, it's seems that by divine providence, things have aligned: we've found a big chunk of ancient gromril.

Consider the following QM statements:
- Gromril, while insanely valuable, is worth the most as a symbol.
- Weapons are what legends are built upon.
-- The sort of weapon that does that is the sort that's forged by a master among masters, a legend himself, using legendary materials.
- One of the three members of the legend of Retaking of Karak 8 Peaks is a legendary runesmith.
- The Human Hero of K8P just found an ancient, battered set of gromril armor. A chunk of legendary material, fit to be reforged.

I don't think I have to spell out any further. "The Dwarven King commissions a legendary weapon out of gratitude to his unexpected friend, the Human Hero" is literally the founding legend of the Empire.

A 25 favor weapon is a legendary piece of artifice, requiring a legendary smith and legendary materials. Most of all, a legendary weapon requires a legend.

We have the Legend of Mathilde Weber, Hero of Karak 8 Peaks. We have a legendary smith, Kragg the Grim, also a hero of the reclamation. And we have King Belengar Ironhammer, filled with gratitude so deep that he, a Dwarven King, swore to move mountains to see a wish of ours come true, whom was just handed a significant amount of legendary material by Mathilde.

This is how you turn a success story into a legend that will be spoken for the rest of Karaz Ankor's existence. The story of reclamation, unlikely valorous allies, heroic deeds and legendary feats, a sweeping victory of such magnitude that it gave a spark of hope to an entire race.

You tie the cornerstones of said legend into the making of a weapon, because nothing stokes the fires of the heart like a legendary weapon that ties the tale together.

It's the chave de ouro, the golden key, the perfect high note. I urge you, vote to reforge the glory of the past into a symbol of the future. Vote to found a legend.
 
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I'm honestly shocked by how little traction the knight has gotten and how enthusiastic everyone is about Badass Merchant Guy. This is probably a combination of "people who know more about the setting have reservations about the Brettonian thing" and "people who were hyped about Steward and expanding the EIC wanting another mercantile type around."

But she's so cool. Mad respect for someone whose response to society censuring her for trying to be a good person was to flip them off and do the same thing, only harder and for other people.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[X] [ARMOUR] Make no recommendation.
 
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant

[x] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.

[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.

[X] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.

I agree with the consensus, except I think this is an excellent opportunity to build bridges/mend fences with the Old Holds. Maybe they aren't focused on the most important things, but they can still offer support.
 
[] [ARMOUR] It should be returned to the Hold it was stolen from, to build strong ties among the Karaz Ankor.
[] [UNDUMGI] Soizic, Bretonnian Questing Knight
[] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the greenskins.
[] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[] [SPIDER] The We can be allowed to scutter off into the Underway, never to be seen again .


Still about 10 pages behind, but getting this in since I may be grabbed offline soon.

Slight preference for Francesco, but the Knight would probably also be okay.
And I'd prefer not to have to try to integrate the We into the K8P society as more than a "Here's their territory, respect it. Oh, and they help fight the baddies." At least not just yet.

I'd be very amused by getting Wolf a collar or other thing that allows him to speak with two-legs.

Edit: (Not sure if removing votes here is necessary when doing a later one, but doing so regardless.)
 
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I was against a runic weapon. Doubly so a 25 Favour weapon. Truthfully I still am against getting such a weapon. However…
A 25 Favour legend? That might be worth it.
A Weapon commemorating the reconquest of K8P. Forged by the great Rune Lord who aided in the retaking, using gromril recovered from the Karak and wielded by the other great hero of K8P, Dame Mathilde. That is something to brighten this Grim and Dark setting.
Yeah, it's the it's the narrative that has always made this quest so special, and I want this kind of grand narrative capstone to our work here.

I'm still very fond of @DarkLight140's idea of literally getting our sword named "Shenanigans in Kharag Lhune"
 
They've jumped between good guys that have been unfortunately corrupted to capricious murderous shits that some times do good because of their nature bent and back a few times. Some of it's due to the lore history of Ariel taking in the super corrupt beastman lord that's primary purpose is to corrupt the court of the wood elves but they're also kind of assholes in general to wanderers in the woods just because depending on the edition.
Yeah. I just don't like how they're portrayed in 8th. The whole 'servants of both the dark and the light' thing feels like it's an attempt to make them an in between faction about balance. I prefer them to just be about defending their homeland. No noble aspirations, no evil goals. Just 'fuck with Athel Loren, you die'. Makes them different, and not morally clear, but without them trying to be a midpoint between HE and DE.
 
it gave a spark of hope to an entire range.

Sorry to nitpick your polemic, but I think you meant race...

Apart from that, agreed 110%.

Yeah. I just don't like how they're portrayed in 8th. The whole 'servants of both the dark and the light' thing feels like it's an attempt to make them an in between faction about balance. I prefer them to just be about defending their homeland. No noble aspirations, no evil goals. Just 'fuck with Athel Loren, you die'. Makes them different, and not morally clear, but without them trying to be a midpoint between HE and DE.

I quite like them using both High and Dark Magic for that, in an 'ends justify the means' kind of a way. Particularly if they use Dark Magic outside the forest where they don't care.
 
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[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a powerful military ally against the Skaven.
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.
[X] [UNDUMGI] Francesco Caravello, Tilean ex-merchant
[X] [ARMOUR] It should be reforged into a worthy commemoration of the Karak's rebirth.

I am in favor of 25-favor weapon, but I propose to ask for a "weapon", not a "sword". It is a matter of politeness and psychology. Kragg is smart and knows us and our preference, so he'll still make a sword. But in the first case it is because manling said so, while in the second it is his own decision as a crafter.

Scenario 1: We ask for a sword, Kragg makes it, but resents it because manling told him - master Runesmith - what to make and it is a sword. Quality somewhat suffers - any imperfections are manling's fault for not asking for a proper weapon.
Scenario 2: We ask for a weapon. Kragg knows that we fight with a sword and while he dislikes making them, his crafter ethics won't allow him to make a weapon incompatible with one's fighting style (since it is dealing in bad faith). He makes a sword in the end, but since it was his decision this time (and we trusted him to make him), he goes extra mile to correct any deficiencies in his technique.
 
[X] [SPIDER] The We can be a welcome addition to the multispecies community of Karak Eight Peaks.

They remind me too much of the description of 40k Protohumans. Not sure why, but while I recommend caution helping them out seems to be beneficial if done right.

Regardless, I would like to present the option to our king and se what he thinks.
 
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