Biggest thing stopping grudges from being nullified is probably the fact that it is hard to do so without claiming the one entering those grudges, often your ancestor, was wrong.
Which can be really difficult to admit among humans, let alone with dawi.
Easier to find some pretext on how the grudge has been avenged, no matter how stretched the logic, instead.
And doing so too often, or too flimsily, is going to do terrible things to your (personal/family/clan/hold) reputation.
Biggest thing stopping grudges from being nullified is probably the fact that it is hard to do so without claiming the one entering those grudges, often your ancestor, was wrong.
Which can be really difficult to admit among humans, let alone with dawi.
Easier to find some pretext on how the grudge has been avenged, no matter how stretched the logic, instead.
And doing so too often, or too flimsily, is going to do terrible things to your (personal/family/clan/hold) reputation.
I think ironically would might get more shame from the wrongly declared grudge than you would from just an unfulfilled one and it's not like that shame would end with you, that is in the family line, it sticks.
In this case, my confusion is more physical then metaphysical. Like, does "setting" mean that you're using dragonfire to weld a solid rune onto an item? Breathing fire on an already-finished rune? Heating up an object before you start inscribing? Channelling the dragonfire and putting it into the rune just like you would with the winds of magic? Some kind of blacksmithing term like "quenching"?
That said, your post is insightful and I will remember it.
It's not "set", it's "set into", which in this case means the rune is put or placed, without going into details of the process. Any of the examples you provided might be the case here.
Biggest thing stopping grudges from being nullified is probably the fact that it is hard to do so without claiming the one entering those grudges, often your ancestor, was wrong.
Which can be really difficult to admit among humans, let alone with dawi.
Easier to find some pretext on how the grudge has been avenged, no matter how stretched the logic, instead.
And doing so too often, or too flimsily, is going to do terrible things to your (personal/family/clan/hold) reputation.
I think most gets stopped by the negotiation process before a grudge is officially declared. It's the last resort, after all. And in almost all circumstances, something really bad would have happened, so if required you can change the target of the grudge and add a new one for the deception. Still a shameful thing, but more the thing that gets buried in silence.
The exception would be if the dwarf deliberately lied about the harm suffered for the grudge. But I think that's such a singular and rare thing it doesn't matter for the general case
I think ironically would might get more shame from the wrongly declared grudge than you would from just an unfulfilled one and it's not like that shame would end with you, that is in the family line, it sticks.
Unfulfilled grudge just means you are going to, any day now.
Dawi are patient, they are willing to wait a dozen generations to get something done.
But fucking up the grudge declaration process? That just shows incompetence, and that is damn near unforgivable.
I think most gets stopped by the negotiation process before a grudge is officially declared. It's the last resort, after all. And in almost all circumstances, something really bad would have happened, so if required you can change the target of the grudge and add a new one for the deception. Still a shameful thing, but more the thing that gets buried in silence.
The exception would be if the dwarf deliberately lied about the harm suffered for the grudge. But I think that's such a singular and rare thing it doesn't matter for the general case
Well, presumably yes, provided there was a negotiation process (not necessarily something that happens), and generally i would expect dawi to be very careful in declaring a grudge, because that shit sticks for generations.
And sometimes it is over a book of shitty poetry and couple shillings, or a bucket.
Because dawi are not perfect, no matter how hard they try.
Well, presumably yes, provided there was a negotiation process (not necessarily something that happens), and generally i would expect dawi to be very careful in declaring a grudge, because that shit sticks for generations.
And sometimes it is over a book of shitty poetry and couple shillings, or a bucket.
Because dawi are not perfect, no matter how hard they try.
I'm pretty sure at least for quest canon, if you want to declare a grudge against people who aren't hostis dwarfis, you have to go through elders and the king to get it written down. And all of those have failed to get the other side to engage. Not necessarily even to agree to restitution, just that there is something to talk about. If it's a grudge over a book of shitty poetry and couple shillings, or a bucket, then that means two sides were being extremely stubborn about it.
And at that point it, humans might start a fight over it too, because you can't let people get away with petty bullshit or you'll have to deal with petty bullshit forever.
Yup, Dwarves have steps they take before resorting to a Grudge such as dispute resolution processes between Dwarves and explaining what you've done wrong and how you can fix things before a Grudge is declared for disputes between Dwarves and another species.
It is two easy for two Dwarves on their own to end up in a spiraling feud, because both would feel it would be Wrong to back down and allow the other to win. But when the Elders of one Dwarf's Clan talks to the Elders of the other Dwarf's Clan, there's no dishonour in obeying if the end result of those discussions are that you need to shut up and make recompense. You are bowing to the wisdom of your Elders and doing what is best for your Clan. Even if you feel you were actually in the right, that becomes a scar of noble obedience rather than a festering wound. At worst they might get a bit annoying about how they martyr on about it.
Have you heard the legend of the Tuppence Grudge?"
Eike's eyes dart to you, and you nod. "Yes, your Majesty," she admits. It's an old and often retold legend about a fort commissioned from the Dwarves, and after they were shorted in payment by two pennies they went to war to tear it down.
"The part the legend leaves out is how many Elders and Loremasters did their best to explain to the manlings what would happen, and how many times they were ignored. Humans may bluff and bluster, but Longbeards don't. Listen when they speak and you won't go far wrong."
@Boney is this based on your analysis of the use of "ril" in various words (e.g. combining "brilliant-shining gold" and "old dwarf wrinkles") or do you have a source outright saying that's what it means?
It's based on analysis, trying to find a way to square 'agril' and 'azril' meaning silver while just 'ril' means gold in two pretty significantly different contexts.
I'm pretty sure at least for quest canon, if you want to declare a grudge against people who aren't hostis dwarfis, you have to go through elders and the king to get it written down. And all of those have failed to get the other side to engage. Not necessarily even to agree to restitution, just that there is something to talk about. If it's a grudge over a book of shitty poetry and couple shillings, or a bucket, then that means two sides were being extremely stubborn about it.
And at that point it, humans might start a fight over it too, because you can't let people get away with petty bullshit or you'll have to deal with petty bullshit forever.
I think there is a difference between individual grudges, and grudges that are family/clan/hold/Karaz Ankor wide.
And even if not, what about when the king is the one who is making hasty decisions?
Like, yes, dawi tend to be very careful with the grudges, and at least in DL canon there are some sanity checks along the way, exactly because they are a big deal.
But occasionally, shit goes through, mistakes get made, and possible somebody has to get a haircut.
I'm pulling the bad book of poetry directly from Warhammer canon btw, it was between Gotrek and some dwarf prince (king?) from their days as young mercenaries seeing the world.
And there was another clan grudging about who owned a shield (shield was long broken, with only wooden splinters left of it).
I think there is a difference between individual grudges, and grudges that are family/clan/hold/Karaz Ankor wide.
And even if not, what about when the king is the one who is making hasty decisions?
Like, yes, dawi tend to be very careful with the grudges, and at least in DL canon there are some sanity checks along the way, exactly because they are a big deal.
But occasionally, shit goes through, mistakes get made, and possible somebody has to get a haircut.
I'm pulling the bad book of poetry directly from Warhammer canon btw, it was between Gotrek and some dwarf prince (king?) from their days as young mercenaries seeing the world.
And there was another clan grudging about who owned a shield (shield was long broken, with only wooden splinters left of it).
I think the difference between individual level Grudges and higher level Grudges is who's going to actively seek to strike them out. Individual level Grudges would be tried to be resolved the individual and their close friends and family, family level Grudges would be tried to be resolved by the family and other families they're on close terms with, Clan level Grudges by the Clan and allied Clans, Karak level Grudges by the Karak and allied Karaks, and Karaz Ankor Grudges by literally everyone who isn't an Imperial Dwarf. Okri Okrisson isn't responsible for resolving a personal Grudge for someone on the other side of Karaz Ankor although if they do avenge it incidentally that seems to count, we weren't seeking to strike out Grudges when we took down Alkharad but Karak Kadrin accepted it as enough to strike out a bunch of Grudges against him all the same.
As for misdirected Grudges, I imagine that's likely why they didn't immediately declare a Grudge against annyone in particular over Skull River, they don't know who did it. There might be a placeholder Grudge in the Book against the henchmen and their mastermind but it would be something generic like how the Grudge for Karak Vlag was attributed to the Chaos Gods as a whole until they were able to get info from Vlag about who precisely was responsible. Right now they don't know who did it, whether it was Marienburg and possibly House Akkerman in particular, whether it was the Skaven due to the Dhar-based explosive substance, or some third party. I imagine the Grudge will be revised to be more specific once they're confident they've found the true culprit if they ever do manage to track them down.
The closest match I could find for "set" as a smithing term is for a specific type of hammer called a "set hammer":
"In smithing, "set" typically refers to a type of hammer, specifically a set hammer, which is used for shaping and smoothing metal in tight areas without leaving large hammer marks. It is an essential tool for achieving fine details in metalwork."
"A set hammer is a type of hammer used in blacksmithing, typically with a hollowed-out face, that serves as a swage or flatter for shaping metal. It is designed to create smooth surfaces and work in tight corners without affecting the surrounding area."
However, I don't think this is what GW were referring to with that passage (perhaps apart from the "work with fine detail in a small area, without affecting the surroundings").
The way I see it, "some of the greatest runes require Dragon's Fire to set them into Gromril" means either one or both of these two possibilites:
These runes are of such high complexity and fine detail that Dragon Fire is needed to make the Gromril pliable enough to carve them correctly.
These runes require a boatload of magical energy to properly activate, and Dragon's Fire is the only substance that both has that amount of energy and is actually usable in smithing (you try and work an extremely tough piece of metal while blasting it with liquid nitrogen, the way a dragon like Cython's Breath works).
As for the specific meaning of "set [the runes] into Gromril" in that passage, I don't think it means anything more special than "properly inscribe [the runes] into Gromril".
So what you're saying is, Asarnil and Deathfang could get hired to take a rather novel job for making something really awesome. Hell, if it's gear for them, you could use that as payment for a particularly big job. There's a lot of prestige and value in being paid in unique and world-class enchanted gear that is made partially with your own awesomeness.
It may be a little early to make a retrospective comment on the Waystone Project, but since waystones are actually being deployed now maybe not. I was reading through some of the old storylines and a lot of them felt very satisfying in their conclusions in a way that I'm not sure the Waystone project has yet. I think a lot of that is that they ended (or at least had) big dramatic confrontations and foes standing in the way that had to be beaten back and all of that. The Waystones have never really had that. To be honest, it all went kind of smooth. Mathilde gathered everyone together, they put their pieces on the table, they figured a way to make Waystones, and that was that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that good decisions from the thread helped with that, but there was never significant opposition trying to stop the project from working. There were no saboteurs blowing up the lab, or a political plot to have the team arrested or... I dunno, any of that stuff.
I'm kind of disappointed that we never faced significant pushback from the forces of chaos and ruin and all those that love the land being suffused with dhar. It's not that I wanted to 'lose' or anything, but I sort of wish they had tried some shit that we then had to respond to. I mean, the project wasn't that secret, you'd figure that various chaos forces would know something was going on and that it would be long term bad for them if succeeded and try to put a stop to it. Especially as we know Mathilde has attracted their attention.
It may be a little early to make a retrospective comment on the Waystone Project, but since waystones are actually being deployed now maybe not. I was reading through some of the old storylines and a lot of them felt very satisfying in their conclusions in a way that I'm not sure the Waystone project has yet. I think a lot of that is that they ended (or at least had) big dramatic confrontations and foes standing in the way that had to be beaten back and all of that. The Waystones have never really had that. To be honest, it all went kind of smooth. Mathilde gathered everyone together, they put their pieces on the table, they figured a way to make Waystones, and that was that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that good decisions from the thread helped with that, but there was never significant opposition trying to stop the project from working. There were no saboteurs blowing up the lab, or a political plot to have the team arrested or... I dunno, any of that stuff.
I'm kind of disappointed that we never faced significant pushback from the forces of chaos and ruin and all those that love the land being suffused with dhar. It's not that I wanted to 'lose' or anything, but I sort of wish they had tried some shit that we then had to respond to. I mean, the project wasn't that secret, you'd figure that various chaos forces would know something was going on and that it would be long term bad for them if succeeded and try to put a stop to it. Especially as we know Mathilde has attracted their attention.
The thing is, how would they do that? The two locations most important for it were Laurelorn and K8P, for chaos to get to either would require a full fledged invasion on a scale that is hard to muster. The best they could do is try to throw beastmen at the Eonir, but beastmen alone are... kind of shit as a field army. They are good at causing attrition, but there is a reason the Chaos Gods are bored of them and why the Age of the Beast is long gone.
@Boney I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but I think that you said before that one of the great barriers of learning spells is learning how to shape the Winds correctly. Could we design a hypersensitive version of the auditory Seviroscope as a learning aid? The teacher would perform the spell close to it, emitting a tune, and so the students would try to imitate it and learn how close/far they were from casting the spell from hearing the differences. Would that work?
It's Warhammer, you can always have Chaos pull some new capability out of its ass as needed for the plot.
And I want to be very clear, this is a "the story would have felt more satisfying to me if there had been greater resistance to overcome" so we're starting with that premise and working back to, "Okay, figure out some way to have made it happen." Not the other way around.
It's Warhammer, you can always have Chaos pull some new capability out of its ass as needed for the plot.
And I want to be very clear, this is a "the story would have felt more satisfying to me if there had been greater resistance to overcome" so we're starting with that premise and working back to, "Okay, figure out some way to have made it happen." Not the other way around.
Boney has been very careful not do to that though, he has several posts where he makes it clear that if we figure out some way to anti-climax the next Evechosen that is what happens. One of the differences between this quest and canon is that the bad guys have to play fair within the setting as given, they do not just get buffed for the drama past their inherent advantages.
I'm kind of disappointed that we never faced significant pushback from the forces of chaos and ruin and all those that love the land being suffused with dhar. It's not that I wanted to 'lose' or anything, but I sort of wish they had tried some shit that we then had to respond to. I mean, the project wasn't that secret, you'd figure that various chaos forces would know something was going on and that it would be long term bad for them if succeeded and try to put a stop to it. Especially as we know Mathilde has attracted their attention.
If Chaos was into long-term, efficient, and unexciting plans, it would already have won and also wouldn't be Chaos. It's hard to get people excited for causing stochastic problems a generation from now, especially when there's Chaos' fanciest hat up for grabs and a voice whispering in your ear that you could be the one to deliver the world directly to Chaos.
@Boney I don't know if I'm remembering correctly, but I think that you said before that one of the great barriers of learning spells is learning how to shape the Winds correctly. Could we design a hypersensitive version of the auditory Seviroscope as a learning aid? The teacher would perform the spell close to it, emitting a tune, and so the students would try to imitate it and learn how close/far they were from casting the spell from hearing the differences. Would that work?
If they're Wizards they already have Windsight. They can compare what they're doing to what their teacher is doing directly, they don't need an intermediate.
That is an interesting question, Grudgelore experts can be called Grudgelore experts but what do you call those who haven't achieved that rank yet? You could call Grudgelore experts Masters of Grudgelore so along the same lines Apprentice of Grudgelore maybe? Assistants of Grudgelore if they're made to do necessary but tedious scut work for the actual Masters while they're still learning? Journeymen of Grudgelore? Not sure about that last one, Grudgelore doesn't seem like a field where the traditional Apprentice—>Journeyman—>Master pipeline would work, it's too important to leave to someone who isn't a Master yet and might screw it up and isn't under a Master's supervision.
It's Warhammer, you can always have Chaos pull some new capability out of its ass as needed for the plot.
And I want to be very clear, this is a "the story would have felt more satisfying to me if there had been greater resistance to overcome" so we're starting with that premise and working back to, "Okay, figure out some way to have made it happen." Not the other way around.
The thing just like waystone network being gradually degraded over time was a distant, vague, long term issue that nobody really tried to do anything about until now for the civilised realms, so is its gradual restoration of it is for forces of Chaos. And they by their very nature are less likely to care about solving low-key long term issues that do not bring much personal glory.
If Chaos was into long-term, efficient, and unexciting plans, it would already have won and also wouldn't be Chaos. It's hard to get people excited for causing stochastic problems a generation from now, especially when there's Chaos' fanciest hat up for grabs and a voice whispering in your ear that you could be the one to deliver the world directly to Chaos.
I think what was being proposed was less about creating a stochastic problem (since one already exists), and more about disrupting the work to solve the one that's existed for thousands of years. Even if for no other reason than because it'd be a lot of pretty accomplished scholars, wizards and Runesmiths from across the Old World to knock off in one strike and gain glory in eliminating.
It may be a little early to make a retrospective comment on the Waystone Project, but since waystones are actually being deployed now maybe not. I was reading through some of the old storylines and a lot of them felt very satisfying in their conclusions in a way that I'm not sure the Waystone project has yet. I think a lot of that is that they ended (or at least had) big dramatic confrontations and foes standing in the way that had to be beaten back and all of that. The Waystones have never really had that. To be honest, it all went kind of smooth. Mathilde gathered everyone together, they put their pieces on the table, they figured a way to make Waystones, and that was that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that good decisions from the thread helped with that, but there was never significant opposition trying to stop the project from working. There were no saboteurs blowing up the lab, or a political plot to have the team arrested or... I dunno, any of that stuff.
I'm kind of disappointed that we never faced significant pushback from the forces of chaos and ruin and all those that love the land being suffused with dhar. It's not that I wanted to 'lose' or anything, but I sort of wish they had tried some shit that we then had to respond to. I mean, the project wasn't that secret, you'd figure that various chaos forces would know something was going on and that it would be long term bad for them if succeeded and try to put a stop to it. Especially as we know Mathilde has attracted their attention.
I think what was being proposed was less about creating a stochastic problem (since one already exists), and more about disrupting the work to solve the one that's existed for thousands of years. Even if for no other reason than because it'd be a lot of pretty accomplished scholars, wizards and Runesmiths from across the Old World to knock off in one strike and gain glory in eliminating.
You are Bongo the Greater Daemon, you now have to explain to the glory-hungry barbarian to with three eyes and six mouths what these allegedly 'great' runesmiths and wizards are doing that is so great as to be worth risking their lives and their shot at Everchosen to kill them. Your audience may or may not be able to count to 20 without taking off their shoes and/or hallucinate extra toes when they do take them off.
