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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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IronFist said:
Marienburg is mercantile.
"Pay me so i don't eat you" is not in the same category.
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That is a gross oversimplification of how Ogers work. Your average oger may not be particularly bright, but they don't just eat people for no reason. If you try to cheat them out of payment, then they will eat you. Also, please note that Ogers prefer to be paid with food.
 
FalloutCow said:
That is a gross oversimplification of how Ogers work. Your average oger may not be particularly bright, but they don't just eat people for no reason. If you try to cheat them out of payment, then they will eat you. Also, please note that Ogers prefer to be paid with food.
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I mean, you're right that they don't eat people for no reason.

Ogres eat people because they're hungry.
 
I sort of assumed the effect would be more like if you pushed the object as evenly as possible into the soil, so you sort of get an extremely blended mixture of corpse and soil. Alternatively maybe it's sort of like if you pushed it 'back' into reality from a '4th' dimension so it's basically like a corpse teleported in front of you which must be hell of a jumpscare.
 
Boney said:
If anyone objects to the above on the grounds that all Elves in every setting must always and only be one-dimensional caricatures that are incapable of doing anything but sneering the moment they see a non-pointed ear, I will scream.
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I hadn't thought of any of that, seems obvious in hindsight. I hope I didn't irritate you with that, and apologies if I did.

Boney said:
There's a lot of spells out there that you need to have a pretty specific relationship with a Wind and/or cultural background to wrap your head around
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Are there grades of success and failure with codifying spells? That sounds like the result of a wizard trying to codify a spell so other people could learn it, but didn't translate enough of their mindset. They got it enough that you don't need to be their apprentice to learn it, but you still need to be similar to them to cast it.

It doesn't sound like it would be a thing for elves or the Slann.
 
I think an easy solution to the Substance of Shadow problem is just to have the appearing object shove the object it's in out of the way. If someone under SoS gets exposed to light normally, you get a loud *pop* as a volume of air the size of a person gets dispersed. If SoS ends while someone's inside of rock, you get the explosive equivalent of a volume of rock the size of a person being dispersed. It still explodes, but it doesn't undergo messy atomic nonsense.
 
Derpmind said:
I think an easy solution to the Substance of Shadow problem is just to have the appearing object shove the object it's in out of the way. If someone under SoS gets exposed to light normally, you get a loud *pop* as a volume of air the size of a person gets dispersed. If SoS ends while someone's inside of rock, you get the explosive equivalent of a volume of rock the size of a person being dispersed. It still explodes, but it doesn't undergo messy atomic nonsense.
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While a reasonable solution that runs into the issue that you are doing magic that stems from the warp, and slides out of the way calmly is way less thematic than, strange and worrying things happening somewhat at random.
 
dlwj2000 said:
While a reasonable solution that runs into the issue that you are doing magic that stems from the warp, and slides out of the way calmly is way less thematic than, strange and worrying things happening somewhat at random.
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I said "explode" several times there. Besides, if chaos was capable of randomly causing nuclear explosions, this would be Warhammer Fallout, not Warhammer Fantasy.
 
Regardless of what the expected result of telefragging would be from a purely physics perspective, this is magic we're dealing with here. It lingers, softening reality.

I could see in this example it taking a bit for the atoms to remember they are supposed to be far away from each other. Just a fraction of a second as the strong nuclear force or what have you ramps up such that the atoms are more slowly, gently pushed into position would be sufficient to prevent a cataclysm. Explosive decompression of the material on a people relative scale, but not a threat to civilisation.

I'm sure this could then be dissected to have other issues such as the weaker SNF leading to sudden fission but… magic. You have to assume the fundamental laws of reality are such that life is likely to exist at least in the right environment, or you don't have a story.
 
MrHobbit said:
Are there grades of success and failure with codifying spells? That sounds like the result of a wizard trying to codify a spell so other people could learn it, but didn't translate enough of their mindset. They got it enough that you don't need to be their apprentice to learn it, but you still need to be similar to them to cast it.

It doesn't sound like it would be a thing for elves or the Slann.
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It hasn't really come up so far because all Mathilde has needed for a success has been to get it from the default (only makes sense to herself and her Apprentices) to one stage better than that (only makes sense within the magical tradition of the Grey Order). It would be harder to share with someone who you just share a wider culture and language with, and harder still to create something that would still make sense to a foreigner, especially a foreigner of another species.
 
Xepheria said:
Edit: For non-physics people, the Pauli Exclusion Principle is a purely quantum mechanical effect that states that no two fermions can be in the same quantum state - and if you try it will strenuously oppose you. It's this principle that keeps white dwarves and neutron stars from collapsing immediately into black holes under their own weight.
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Even given that I don't think you'd run into nearly the kind of pressure/density of material needed for this to be a concern. Not unless you're like stacking multiple hundreds of something into the same spot.
 
MrHobbit said:
Are there grades of success and failure with codifying spells? That sounds like the result of a wizard trying to codify a spell so other people could learn it, but didn't translate enough of their mindset. They got it enough that you don't need to be their apprentice to learn it, but you still need to be similar to them to cast it.

It doesn't sound like it would be a thing for elves or the Slann.
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Rite of Way's codification made it readily understandable to Grey College battle-wizards, while being so obtuse to elven enchanters that even with the original author on hand to explain her thinking they still couldn't get it until a genius specialist was called in to act as a translator.
 
10ebbor10 said:
Anyway, I decided to look up the exact wording of the spell. Sadly, I only found secundary sources, but those state that the shadow must be an actual shadow, not merely the absence of light. You need a boundary between light and darkness.

In that case, burying underground just wouldn't work, and even if it did all the spells would get cancelled come nightfall.

Also, if detonations work with dirt, wouldn't it also happen with air. Any wuxard using the spell would die of an air embullism and collapsed lungs (or worse) when rematerializing.
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As written, the issue isn't that you lose the shadow (although a GM might rule that happens too). It's that you can't push someone under the effect of the spell. So you can't use it to bury a body without digging a hole anyway. At which point there's no advantage.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
As written, the issue isn't that you lose the shadow (although a GM might rule that happens too). It's that you can't push someone under the effect of the spell. So you can't use it to bury a body without digging a hole anyway. At which point there's no advantage.
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I mean, you can choose what it interacts with, that's how they breathe with it active. So you could just choose to make it not interact with the earth but *do* interact with gravity and watch it disappear underground presumably.
 
Boney said:
It hasn't really come up so far because all Mathilde has needed for a success has been to get it from the default (only makes sense to herself and her Apprentices) to one stage better than that (only makes sense within the magical tradition of the Grey Order). It would be harder to share with someone who you just share a wider culture and language with, and harder still to create something that would still make sense to a foreigner, especially a foreigner of another species.
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Teclis: Challenge accepted.

Speaking of, what are the odds that the High Loremaster of the White Tower gets copies of papers written by the Colleges?
 
@10ebbor10 In regards to air, air is highly compressible so one could assume either that all the air is pushed away as the object materialises, or even if the air is then trapped within whatever materalises it just wouldn't be much stuff. It might heat up a bit.

On the other hand liquid and solids much less so. When you compress dirt you're compacting it's (non-atomic) particles so they stack together uniformly. You can't really compress, say, a crystalline rock. You get denser rocks mostly when rocks form with high metal content - metal ions are small where silicon/oxygen atoms are relatively large so they fit into the gaps of the crystal matrix. The positively ionic metal and negative oxygen also bind the rock together a smidge denser.

The atoms just can't really be squeezed any tighter together - the repulsion between their electron clouds will get exponentially greater as they are forced together. If you keep squeezing a non-porous solid/liquid more and more they won't keep getting denser - until you hit a tipping point and the atomic structure collapses with the nucleus's getting packed together as tightly as they go (about a million times denser than the sun), which is what you get in white dwarfs.

You can get some dense crystalline rocks forming under high pressure, but the high pressure placed on the rocks when they form is forcing the crystals to pack themselves into a denser geometric arrangement rather than actually getting the atoms to pack closer together. This is why two mostly completely solid objects being superimposed would be dangerous, since in each their electron clouds are already interacting. In the instant of the object materialising the potential energy of the substance would go through the roof, far more than doubling. What exactly happens next is a bit of a guess but 'explosive', 'energetic', and 'bad' are all good descriptors.

So soil can be compacted, but rock can't, and bodies are ~70% water which is mostly incompressible as well. Anyway, this was all just an excuse to link a 59-second video that is mildly related - here is video of a rock that formed under high pressure exfoliating. It's dense crystalline structure is not stable at atmospheric pressure so it expands on the surface. It's very rare to get footage of.
 
I wonder if Rite of Way would be useful in Naggarythe? It's pretty broken terrain there right? Another potential way to impress the shadow warriors lol
 

"This novelty hollow-bladed axe with hinged cutting edge conceals five gun barrels using matchlock and wheellock ignition systems. A sixth barrel forms the handle. It was purchased for the Tower Armories on Saturday 2 April 1825 from Mrs Brooks, Old Bond Street, descibed as the property of a Bavarian nobleman."

This is Nuln Engineering af. How do we get one :V
 
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Wiggy said:
I mean, you can choose what it interacts with, that's how they breathe with it active. So you could just choose to make it not interact with the earth but *do* interact with gravity and watch it disappear underground presumably.
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No, rules as written in the RPG, you don't. It can't be interacted with by physical means, but can interact with what it wants (if you're under the spell, a person can't attack you, but you can attack them). So once you put something under the spell in the RPG, it just sits there, and you can't push it under the ground, nor does it sink on its own.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Haha wow what even is that spell? I'd get it if it lasted five minutes, but a whole year?
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Dark as Silver said:
Presumably by being extremely suspicious of anyone who suggests bloodletting as a medical practice?
E:

As written I think Burning Vengeance is a GM plot hook.
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I agree that the spell is written to be a plot hook. Generally spells in TRPG land are written to be useful for the game (small scale tactical combat) first and worldbuilding....incredibly low on the list if on the list at all. See how theoretically broken Scry and Die should be for any setting with sufficiently high fantasy and anything resembling large state organizations.

FalloutCow said:
On a different topic, I am still a little sad we aren't a diplomat for the Dwarfs, because we won't get to see Boney's take on Ogers. The Oger tribes have always fascinated me for reasons a can't quite put my finger on.

I believe it's down to the fact they are a mercantile people, a rarity in Warhammer.
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Hey, dealing with recent Ogre merchants is one of the few paths we might have for titan metal so there's that possibility!
 
FalloutCow said:
In that case, I eagerly await that happening.
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Uh fair beans, it'd be something you'd have to campaign for. Thread managed to create our prototype--hopefully to be installed soon--without Titan Metal. Ogres are also one of two potential paths, the other being Cathay. There's also I'd say at least a plurality attitude that the prototype is good enough and focus should be on other stuff, such as installing the new Waystones, Elf!Cation, Iron Orcs, or Waystone related military campaigns.

It's not impossible, but right now while possible I'm not seeing much thread movement towards a plan that would have us meeting with the Ogres.
 
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