I mean the thing is they kind of needed those children, they are the Morghur handlers of tomorrow. The point of Dum is that they are damned as a society because it takes a society to maintain the arcane mechanism they set in motion.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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I mean the thing is they kind of needed those children, they are the Morghur handlers of tomorrow. The point of Dum is that they are damned as a society because it takes a society to maintain the arcane mechanism they set in motion.
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- A Pit Of My Own Making
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- He/Him
...this is either very good, or very bad.
I think it is neutral actually, relating to the mindset of the Dum dwarfs in a more poetic manner.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I'm pretty sure that's in reference to Dum.
- Location
- France
Is this Morghur, or the DOOM Slayer ?
I think the most likely way to "save" Karag Dum, is if we smashed the Chaos armies besieging it; thereby allowing them to survive in a way that doesn't depend on Morghur.
And then... you take all the young Dwarfs that did not choose to call up Morghur, and that are also not corrupted or changed yet, and you make them the new rulers of Karag Dum.
All the other Dwarfs? Everybody else? Both those who decided to call up Morghur, and also all those who did not succeed in dissuading them, or who did not manage to stop this?
Rip and tear, until it is done, as Boney said.
They all turn Slayer.
That is probably the only way to save Karag Dum.
Smash the siege. Banish Morghur. Round up the non-changed and innocents and make them the new leaders. Have all the rest go Slayer.
Maybe before they go off to die, they spend just enough time teaching and passing down knowledge and secrets and everything to the young. Maybe it's a situation like the Slayer Kings or Malakai Makaisson where you hold a position or a job for a while while still being a Slayer. Though unlike the Slayer Kings, you won't die on the throne, but instead will eventually leave to seek your doom. ((On the other hand, maybe the shame is great enough that you might see something like a Slayer King situation develop anyway; of future generations needing to make up for the failure of the past.))
... Maybe Slayer King and Malakai are good comparisons. Not in the sense of tradition and a line of Slayers, but in the sense of "remaining in one place or job for a long while".
Because if a bunch of Dwarfs go Slayer, then Karag Dum might not be able to defend itself against the next Chaos invasion. Which means the Slayers might need to hang around in Karag Dum anyway.
Still.
At least being a Slayer is better than working with Morghur? It's a status of great shame and failure, but at least it is something within Dwarf society, rather than reaching out for non-Dwarfy and very heretical and Dhar-y solutions to problem. The comfort of tradition and feeling like you know how things are going; like you know how to make it right. Even if you committed a great shame, at least you are working to erase it.
And then... you take all the young Dwarfs that did not choose to call up Morghur, and that are also not corrupted or changed yet, and you make them the new rulers of Karag Dum.
All the other Dwarfs? Everybody else? Both those who decided to call up Morghur, and also all those who did not succeed in dissuading them, or who did not manage to stop this?
Rip and tear, until it is done, as Boney said.
They all turn Slayer.
That is probably the only way to save Karag Dum.
Smash the siege. Banish Morghur. Round up the non-changed and innocents and make them the new leaders. Have all the rest go Slayer.
Maybe before they go off to die, they spend just enough time teaching and passing down knowledge and secrets and everything to the young. Maybe it's a situation like the Slayer Kings or Malakai Makaisson where you hold a position or a job for a while while still being a Slayer. Though unlike the Slayer Kings, you won't die on the throne, but instead will eventually leave to seek your doom. ((On the other hand, maybe the shame is great enough that you might see something like a Slayer King situation develop anyway; of future generations needing to make up for the failure of the past.))
... Maybe Slayer King and Malakai are good comparisons. Not in the sense of tradition and a line of Slayers, but in the sense of "remaining in one place or job for a long while".
Because if a bunch of Dwarfs go Slayer, then Karag Dum might not be able to defend itself against the next Chaos invasion. Which means the Slayers might need to hang around in Karag Dum anyway.
Still.
At least being a Slayer is better than working with Morghur? It's a status of great shame and failure, but at least it is something within Dwarf society, rather than reaching out for non-Dwarfy and very heretical and Dhar-y solutions to problem. The comfort of tradition and feeling like you know how things are going; like you know how to make it right. Even if you committed a great shame, at least you are working to erase it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
True - but did they need all of them?
I honestly don't know what our next steps would have been had we gotten our foot in the door. I'm just confident we could've gotten there and given a pitch to the folks inside.
You misunderstand. Setting aside that I am in no way arguing that we can do anything what-so-ever about Dum now...
Actually no, I have to address that for a moment. Seriously, I don't know why "we could do something similar to this" present/future tense even comes into the situation. Borek is a slayer now, he will not return, and would not be welcomed back if he did. We do not have the expedition behind us willing to hear them out on our say so to undercut Dum's assumption that nobody will think any of them deserve to be helped or saved. The only time we had a realistic chance of doing anything at all was during the expedition, it was first impression with the homies or bust. We chose bust, that story's over.
We good on that? Good.
Okay, so setting that aside now, when I say we succeeded at opening Vlag up, I'm referring to how they eventually let in Thorgrim instead of turning him into a porcupine like they'd have tried if we hadn't stuck the lot of 'em with a divine vision and then spoken with them before stepping back.
It is unclear if Borek told Dum about Vlag - we couldn't or chose not to get in the door, and until we did even bringing it up would just be forcing Dum to bear more shame and anguish at what could have been. "Maybe something can still be done, even just a little" only enters the conversation if the shadowgrave is willing to let Mathilde in, and until we did something to earn its trust that wasn't going to happen.
By, say, giving it a divine vision explaining our actions defending what it is trying to defend and making it interpret that vision in the best possible light. While all the dawi of Dum experience the same vision.
I pointed this out at the time: The shadowgrave's actions were entirely consistent with protecting Borek and Dum being its first priority. It was not a mindless beast, it was careful to avoid escalation when that could put its charges at risk, and reserved threat displays for the expedition and the expedition alone. If the above tactic failed, it would be extremely obvious and we could abort safely.
Going back to Borek, Boney has gone on record saying that we could have learned more about Dum's situation during the expedition by taking more socials with him. Always rubbed me a bit the wrong way since social actions aren't supposed to have mechanical effects, but I suppose since it wasn't end of turn social actions they're a bit different? That's how I figured.
Man thought we'd condemn him for what Dum did. That all of the expedition would, and that he and they deserved it. It's why he went slayer. But if just having an extra social or two would have convinced him to open up, gaining the shadowgrave's trust and then saying "no, actually, I think there's still something to be done to mitigate this" to he and his kin's faces would certainly have altered the situation, backed by the expedition and Vlag as we were.
To what end, I still can't say. But the opportunity to try was certainly there, at the time.
And only at the time.
As in not now.
Please do not respond to this post arguing at me that we cannot do dum now, I am the already the choir please no I beg of you-
Huh wha?
Oh, boney probably means Borek. He's taken up the unvenviable mantle of the worst slayer, holding that axe, who even knows when he'll ever get to put it down?
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I think there's a word for killing all the adults and reeducating all the children in order to exterminate their religion.
What mechanical effect would knowing more about Dum have had?
What mechanical effect would knowing more about Dum have had?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Setting aside the (apparently unfounded) assumption that Borek might not peace out instantly on sight of the place...
I think we have slightly different definitions of mechanical if revealing mission critical information IC and OOC that alters the protagonist's decisionmaking (e.g., non write-in actions) doesn't count. Reasonable differences mind, I don't think you're wrong now that you put it that way, I just personally saw it as a grey area because of how important it was.
Oh well, thanks for weighing in.
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Yeah, I don't think it would ever be possible to completely quarantine 'plot-relevant' information out of social actions. Social actions don't have mechanical effect, but they are able to uncover information that will help people make mechanical decisions. There's no getting around it, that's just how knowing things works.
(and even if I was daft enough to try to build a wall between the two, me having to reply to 'can we do X social action' with 'no, because that will uncover plot-relevant information' would still be revealing plot-relevant information, just in a more annoying way)
Let's also keep in mind several things. First, that social actions were not, initially, social only actions.
At the start of the quest, "getting to know your councillors"/"help X with Y" were available actions and general things. The option to focus on a person and get to know what makes them tick, or help them with a task or challenge, were always there -- and furthermore, they're a good choice to have. Because sometimes you do want to focus on a person, because the person could be very important; an Elector Count, an Emperor's wife, a Dwarf King, a captain of the ship that you are all depending on a crucial journey, a prisoner you are pumping for information, a target you are trying to get close to to uncover a conspiracy, etc.
It was only some time during the start of the Karak Eight Peaks turns -- not immediately either IIRC, but maybe a turn or two after -- that the idea of a "social turn" came up. It was my idea or suggestion even actually. Not sure if I'm super happy with how it turned out or not, but eh. Especially because of how it seems to cause a narrative and mechanical and social split or separation of sorts; either in actuality, or in the minds of people, and thus in how they treat it. And so 2 (I think?) of our general actions got split off into a social turn instead.
Secondly: the 'social actions' on the Vlag Expedition, were on the same slot as the 'action' actions. "Go scouting" and "cast Rite of Way" were on the same limited amount of actions, as was "get to know X". Which means the social actions weren't just "who do you want to read more about?" actions -- though perhaps that is not the right way to view social actions... I had hoped to get more social stuff, but instead it felt like it turned into a debate over sports teams or over bonuses (bonii?) and lost some of the appeal or impact or some of the essence they had -- they were "as valid" as action-actions.
Though even if they weren't equivalent to "go scouting" actions, it is still the case that "Get to know more about a possibly-crucial VIP or person" is potentially an important task or goal you could be achieving or aiming for. ((And trying to answer "Who is important? Who is important to our job or task? Or a future job or task?" is a problem or judgment to make, as you make with everything. As is "Will talking to X person get us enough actionable or delicious knowledge? Is it worth it?" is also a judgment to make.))
At the start of the quest, "getting to know your councillors"/"help X with Y" were available actions and general things. The option to focus on a person and get to know what makes them tick, or help them with a task or challenge, were always there -- and furthermore, they're a good choice to have. Because sometimes you do want to focus on a person, because the person could be very important; an Elector Count, an Emperor's wife, a Dwarf King, a captain of the ship that you are all depending on a crucial journey, a prisoner you are pumping for information, a target you are trying to get close to to uncover a conspiracy, etc.
It was only some time during the start of the Karak Eight Peaks turns -- not immediately either IIRC, but maybe a turn or two after -- that the idea of a "social turn" came up. It was my idea or suggestion even actually. Not sure if I'm super happy with how it turned out or not, but eh. Especially because of how it seems to cause a narrative and mechanical and social split or separation of sorts; either in actuality, or in the minds of people, and thus in how they treat it. And so 2 (I think?) of our general actions got split off into a social turn instead.
Secondly: the 'social actions' on the Vlag Expedition, were on the same slot as the 'action' actions. "Go scouting" and "cast Rite of Way" were on the same limited amount of actions, as was "get to know X". Which means the social actions weren't just "who do you want to read more about?" actions -- though perhaps that is not the right way to view social actions... I had hoped to get more social stuff, but instead it felt like it turned into a debate over sports teams or over bonuses (bonii?) and lost some of the appeal or impact or some of the essence they had -- they were "as valid" as action-actions.
Though even if they weren't equivalent to "go scouting" actions, it is still the case that "Get to know more about a possibly-crucial VIP or person" is potentially an important task or goal you could be achieving or aiming for. ((And trying to answer "Who is important? Who is important to our job or task? Or a future job or task?" is a problem or judgment to make, as you make with everything. As is "Will talking to X person get us enough actionable or delicious knowledge? Is it worth it?" is also a judgment to make.))
Clearly Dum is just pronounced with a long u guys, making it Karag Doom.
Also there is no saving it, the Karag is in the Chaos Wastes, you could break any number of sieges and that fact would remain. Morghur is needed for countering the environs just as much as for pinking warriors.
Also there is no saving it, the Karag is in the Chaos Wastes, you could break any number of sieges and that fact would remain. Morghur is needed for countering the environs just as much as for pinking warriors.
Yes, notice what I compared the likelihood of getting Karag Dum to let us in to: getting Borek to go back to it. What exactly do you think the purpose of that comparison was?
Nothing about the scene where Thorgrim convinced them out suggested that the vision the Protector gave them was responsible for them reaching out. It gave severals even as to why they trusted Thorgrim. The first was that he was not Alriksson. The second was that the Rune of Eternity didn't give them false-hope, it was instead was anchored in reality and did not touch them. Then there was the Dammaz Kron, something that Slaanesh had never brought up. The Longbeard who came out to tell the suffering Karak Vlag had suffered was stated to either have been wise enough to recognize it as truth, or that he was willing to die for the off-chance that it was real. I don't doubt that the Protector sped it up, to an extent. But it was a peripheral reason at most. Trying to argue that it was the main reason Thorgrim could get in is just wrong. Hell, six months after Mathilde freed them (ish), they wouldn't even let her past their second line of defenses. And she's the one who saved them! This of course wasn't available information at the time, but it is still something that should have been inferred. And speaking of things that should be inferred.
I am going to be frank, if Borek did not report how he got from the Karaz Ankor to Karag Dum and that Karak Vlag was returned to reality, he failed in his duty as a member of the Royal Clan of Karag Dum and for that alone he should have shaved his head and sought his doom. If any dwarf failed to report events of that magnitude to their Karak, they should also swear the oath. Borek spent nearly two centuries trying to discover the fate of his Karak and you're trying to imply he didn't even bother to tell them extremely important details about what happened while he was gone?
You would not be able to find a single Dwarf in the entire Karaz Ankor, or beyond it for that matter, who would think that sort of failure is not something that should end with the Dwarf becoming a Slayer. It is such an immense failure of the loyalty a Dwarf owes to their hold that it is difficult to describe with mere words a betrayal of this magnitude. That is what you say Borek did is: betrayal. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
He took the oath, but it's because Karag Dum fell. Trying to suggest that he did not tell them is so out of character for him that it requires significant proof to assert anything otherwise.
For one, there were no threats to Karag Dum to the magnitude that were a direct threat to the safety of the Karak. We know because the caravan wasn't destroyed by them. The Protector only gives the heads up to people saved directly by the actions of Mathilde. Karag Dum was not threatened by the Kurgan and neither was the Shadowgave. It might save him effort, if that considering that the Kurgan tribes seemed rather uninterested in attacking Karag Dum.
If Karag Dum wanted to talk, Karag Dum would have talked. It is as simple as that.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The way we 'save' Dum is we expand the waystone network to the point that they are no longer in the chaos wastes. Of course at that point things become awkward.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
I've always been pronouncing it Doom.
Given how on-the-nose a lot of Khazalid is, it wouldn't exactly be off-brand to make their word for Chaos sound like Doom.
'Doom' has a deep well of variant meanings and pronunciations when you start getting into the Old English, Germanic, and Norse versions of the word, with dōm, dóm, døm, and dǿm bridging the pronunciation gulf between 'doom' and 'Dum' and demanding a deep well of knowledge about vowels with squiggly bits. The usual English meaning is something like 'terrible and unavoidable fate', but these older versions of the word often meant things closer to 'destiny' or 'law' or 'judgement' or 'condemnation', sometimes by earthly powers and sometimes by fate or divinity. I find this etymological uncertainty very fitting for Karag Dum.
I've just finished reading a book, Untypical: How the world isn't built for autistic people and what we should do about it, by Pete Wharmby.
Being on the spectrum myself, there wasn't much in the way of new information, but I did find it deeply validating as much of it matches my own life experiences.
Now why am I mentioning this here? Well, one of the points the author keeps making is that our society is inherently hostile towards autistic people, and that this is deeply stressful and traumatic. And that made me think of another group who live deeply stressful lives due to existing in a hostile world: the dwarves of Divided Loyalties.
It's a repeated theme throughout the quest that dwarves don't fit on the planet—almost every aspect is actively hostile to them, from their own culture, other races, and even to the weather and the magic system.
Now Boney actually hasn't written his dwarves as autistic, but the stresses and traumas they feel due to being rejected by their world map pretty closely to the stresses and traumas I feel due to being rejected by my world, and that's pretty damn relatable.
But whilst the dwarves are rejected by the world on a metaphysical level, there is a second group who are rejected on a socialital level—the collages of magic. And again, Boney hasn't written wizards as autistic (although there's probably an argument to be made that becoming a wizard has made them some form of neurodivergent), but what I've noticed is that DL's wizards aren't as likely to suffer from this "rejection stress", because they have a strong support system in place, as well as a home and a sense of belonging.
The wizards might be rejected by the world at large, but within that world they have been able to create a society for themselves, where they can freely be themselves. This is exemplified by the Duckling Club, which took the outcasts of the Colleges and gave them a home.
It'sturtles support groups all the way down.
I think reading this book has helped crystallize something I love about Boney's worldbuilding—it honestly lays out the effects of what it's like to not belong, whilst also celebrating how easy and effective it can be to create a place for those who are different to belong to.
And I find that really uplifting and hopeful.
Being on the spectrum myself, there wasn't much in the way of new information, but I did find it deeply validating as much of it matches my own life experiences.
Now why am I mentioning this here? Well, one of the points the author keeps making is that our society is inherently hostile towards autistic people, and that this is deeply stressful and traumatic. And that made me think of another group who live deeply stressful lives due to existing in a hostile world: the dwarves of Divided Loyalties.
It's a repeated theme throughout the quest that dwarves don't fit on the planet—almost every aspect is actively hostile to them, from their own culture, other races, and even to the weather and the magic system.
Now Boney actually hasn't written his dwarves as autistic, but the stresses and traumas they feel due to being rejected by their world map pretty closely to the stresses and traumas I feel due to being rejected by my world, and that's pretty damn relatable.
But whilst the dwarves are rejected by the world on a metaphysical level, there is a second group who are rejected on a socialital level—the collages of magic. And again, Boney hasn't written wizards as autistic (although there's probably an argument to be made that becoming a wizard has made them some form of neurodivergent), but what I've noticed is that DL's wizards aren't as likely to suffer from this "rejection stress", because they have a strong support system in place, as well as a home and a sense of belonging.
The wizards might be rejected by the world at large, but within that world they have been able to create a society for themselves, where they can freely be themselves. This is exemplified by the Duckling Club, which took the outcasts of the Colleges and gave them a home.
It's
I think reading this book has helped crystallize something I love about Boney's worldbuilding—it honestly lays out the effects of what it's like to not belong, whilst also celebrating how easy and effective it can be to create a place for those who are different to belong to.
And I find that really uplifting and hopeful.
I've never consciously considered it before, but there's probably a lot about how the Dwarves cope and fail to cope with a world that is inherently hostile to them that comes from my own experiences with social anxiety. Their bleak refusal to allow themselves to be destroyed is something I've had to find within myself at times.
- Location
- Space
They're bad at reading people so they try to use hard and fast rules about who they can trust instead, they're at once blunt and unemotive making them seem difficult to read or hostile by people who don't know them well, they usually want nothing more than to shut themselves away in their workshop and spend weeks on end thinking about their special interest, they've got very particular opinions on their clothes and drinks with a particular emphasis on quality of production for the former and consistency for the latter, and SV users (myself included) have universally decided they like and identify with them.
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- Location
- Germany
Breaking the siege of Karak Dum wouldn't be enough to save it.
It's still in the Chaos Waste, far enough that centuries of building waystones unopposed be the next Storm of Chaos or Everchosen would be needed to get them out of there.
I doubt that anything can be done to save Dum, in what time it has left before Chaos ultimately claims or destroys it.
It's still in the Chaos Waste, far enough that centuries of building waystones unopposed be the next Storm of Chaos or Everchosen would be needed to get them out of there.
I doubt that anything can be done to save Dum, in what time it has left before Chaos ultimately claims or destroys it.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I personally have learned not to put a limit on how successful a project might be.
- Location
- New Zealand
I've always read the Warhammer Dwarves as autistic coded to some extent, ever since I realised that I myself was on the autism spectrum.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
It isn't even really 'under siege', we rolled right up to it and there wasn't exactly an army of Kurgan surrounding it. They seem to just treat it as an honor exercise at this point.