Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Ok if we want to make a really good showing for elfaction than we need to make Mathilde more Killy. So that is doing the mark and bringing it under control. Doing the counting action, which is also good so we can train Eike too. Or finish one of the other actions to make Mathilde more dangerous.

We haven't even used our completed sword style or our new Knight yet, 'more killy' isn't what we need at the moment.

I also don't think there's any reason to believe that the 'study an arcane mark' action would make Mathilde more killy in the first place.
 
Ok why our we going on elfcation? Because originally it was to get elgi favor some we can bring Ukthuan in on the project. But that has already happened. Now we can go to train Mathilde to be a dangerous assassin, which would be bad ass. Or do we even need to do elfcation now? Because we could do other things.
 
Last edited:
I wanna get started on Arcane Marks mostly because I want to have a better understanding of Mathilde's soul; even if it's not likely to be very combat-useful, we are likely to get things beyond "keep smoke or dangerous gases away from your face" or "you can keep your shadow still so it won't freak out peasants". In short, I wanna see what a few extra steps down the Ulgu ladder look like.

...Also, we're likely to get a few party tricks in the process of figuring that out, like being able to manipulate fog or smoke around us to have a cool cape that won't get caught on anything. Eat your heart out, Edna.
 
I think the Advanced Eonir Diplomacy is more likely to pay off than Arcane Mark control, which I suspect they'll just file under "humans do magic weird". And if we thought it really mattered we ought to be controlling all of our arcane marks to avoid whatever sneering people are worrying about, and I don't think we have the time budget for that, unless we want to put off Elfcation for another turn or two.
Oh, I'm not worried about sneering or anything. It's just that if we ever get into a discussion of the differences between the human and elf ways of doing magic, I think it would be neat to be able to have control over our shadow (as an example) rather than it just doing whatever; I think one would be enough. I've wanted to do Arcane Mark control for a long time -- it was the next big self-improvement project I wanted after Branarhune was done, though the thread really wanted Apparitions so I bowed to that instead -- and Lord knows I love all of Boney's writing about the more mystical relationship Mathilde has with Ulgu than the detached and analytical elf perspective.

EDIT: Also, everything Parabola said on the topic just above me.
Ok if we want to make a really good showing for elfaction than we need to make Mathilde more Killy. So that is doing the mark and bringing it under control. Doing the counting action, which is also good so we can train Eike too. Or finish one of the other actions to make Mathilde more dangerous.
I think we're adequately killy; we've spent three actions over the last two turns becoming killier. We're good. I back us in a fight against most Druchii other than their centuries-old Lords and Heroes.
Ok why our we going on elfcation? Because originally it was to get elgi favor some we can bring Ukthuan in on the project. But that has already happened. Now we can go to train Mathilde to be a dangerous assassin, which would be bad ass. Or do we even need to do elfcation now?
"Because I think it would be cool as hell." Like, I also think that by having the Coin on Protector we can get some elves to have good impressions of us which will be useful down the line, but that's not why I want to do it, I want to do it because I think that going to Nagarythe and fighting Druchii alongside the Shadow Warriors is fucking sweet.
 
Ok so if we are going to go and fight druichi would it not be a good idea to negotiate with the druichi to find out who is there. That way we can attack and kill druichi and put on a good showing. Because druichi are willing to sell out other druichi. We can even get payed to kill certain druichi.
 
Internal investigation is tremendously important to find out if someone is embezzling money.
The general response to this in the past has generally been the Mathile/the thread doesn't *care* if someone is embezzling. We set up an agency to watch out for cultists and vampires and behavior that would be destructive to the empire, but if someone is skimming a bit off the top it's just not worth Mathilde's time to bother with fixing.

You can disagree with that sentiment of course, but that's the general vibe I've seen.
 
Oh, I'm not worried about sneering or anything. It's just that if we ever get into a discussion of the differences between the human and elf ways of doing magic, I think it would be neat to be able to have control over our shadow (as an example) rather than it just doing whatever; I think one would be enough. I've wanted to do Arcane Mark control for a long time -- it was the next big self-improvement project I wanted after Branarhune was done, though the thread really wanted Apparitions so I bowed to that instead -- and Lord knows I love all of Boney's writing about the more mystical relationship Mathilde has with Ulgu than the detached and analytical elf perspective.
I agree with all of your reasons as to why arcane marks are a good avenue of investigation for us to get into now that we're at the end of AV.

I don't think control of an arcane mark would be more than a footnote in any hypothetical elf magic discussion though, so if we're prioritising for Elfcation then I'm not really fussed about getting it done.
 
The general response to this in the past has generally been the Mathile/the thread doesn't *care* if someone is embezzling. We set up an agency to watch out for cultists and vampires and behavior that would be destructive to the empire, but if someone is skimming a bit off the top it's just not worth Mathilde's time to bother with fixing.

You can disagree with that sentiment of course, but that's the general vibe I've seen.
See that is the problem with me. Rarely does someone stop skimming. I have seen these is real life. Greed always take hold and the person or persons keep skimming.

Hypothetically the relative of a person I worked with who was in a higher position than me used their expenses account to hire a company they owned. Now the company did something trivial but they used the company they technically owned to hire a third party who did it for less than what was payed. Now it did not get noticed till we did a internal audit and realized we where paying 5 times as much for a service and it cost the company so much that they did not hire some new employees because of cost. The fallout was immense and the owner fired a executive and pushed charges on the offender, hypothetically.

Now the thing is the EIC exist not to get rich but to supply the forces of order and be Mathilde spy network. If someone skims that means they are more likely to hide stuff or sell out the EIC. So every person stealing is potential someone who will turn coat or cost the forces of order something.
 
So you're argument is that an independent state should just roll over and die for the Empire? With that logic, Kislev and Bretonnia should swear fealty to the Emperor because having multiple states and the necessity to be ready to defend against them prevent the Empire from better fighting Choas and protect the souls of its citizens. And the Empire has a fleet to defend its coast, based in Nordland.
I love the strawman, that should do nicely to scare away any serious debate over the topic. Let me turn this around, by that logic the Empire should just roll over and let their people be dragged off kicking and screaming to the Alters of the Dark Gods because to militarize their coasts would threaten a fellow independent state? Why is it reprehensible that the Empire would take actions against an independent state that takes actions against them, but simply a natural consequence of state policy for Marienburg's naval posture to be more aligned with the hostis humani (sapientia?) generis than a relatively moderate feudal federation they share cultural ties with? There are ways that Marienburg could coexist and normalize relations with the Empire, working in tacit alignment with vikings from hell out of a greater fear of the Empire is kinda the opposite. To pretend there is no onus whatsoever on Marienburg for their policies and the actions taken in pursuit of them is insane.

No. Kislev and Brettonia are not bankrolling mercenaries and pirates to attack and undermine the Empire's coastlines for fear of a naval buildup that would challenge their stranglehold on the Reik. Nor is it as simple as saying 'Marienburg's efforts to prevent the Empire from having a stronger naval presence on it's northern coast are meaningless because the Empire has a single coastal fleet'- the Empire had a fleet there when Marienburg was still part of the Empire- and Norscan piracy was still a major problem. It would still be a major problem even if Westerland was reconquered, it would just be a problem the Empire can start seriously committing to solving.
 
Last edited:
(Edit: another typo: Shouldn't this say Laurelorn instead of Tor Lithanel? Neither Hatalath or Cadaeth are Cityborn, and it doesn't match Kislev or Karaz Ankor.)

Laurelorn as a political entity was originally born from Ulthuan's abandonment, then forcefully shattered by Ulthuan, and then reborn as a refuge for all of the cities that Ulthuan destroyed by starting the War of the Beard. Someone from Ulthuan would prefer to refer to Tor Lithanel, the research colony that Ulthuan founded and a name much lighter in historical baggage.

Less specifically, using similar labels like 'Tor Lithanel', 'Laurelorn', and 'the Eonir' interchangeably to refer to the same people isn't technically correct, but everyone knows what you're talking about. It's like how 'the Dwarves' and 'the Karaz Ankor', or 'the Asur' and 'Ulthuan', aren't technically the same things, but if you use them in a geopolitical context nobody's going to get confused or take offence from using the 'wrong' one.

warhammerfantasy.fandom.com

Military Uniforms of the Empire

Just as the Empire is a highly diverse nation, so too are the many regiments that compose its military. But from the best equipped units in Altdorf to the poorest backwater Free Company Militia, every regiment has some sort of uniform.[1a] Every Imperial Electoral Province and city-state has...
According to this pic Nordland is supposed to rule Marienburg. How canon is that?

That's not inherent to Nordland, that's a claim by the Gausser dynasty that in the absence of any member of House van der Maacht, they are the rightful rulers of Marienburg. But at the current time the Nikse dynasty rules Nordland.

Hm, I *thought* there was a WoG that elf ships were mostly better because of the materials they're made of and the skill of their sailors and that the empire wouldn't be able to get much from studying them but I might be remembering something from drunken dynasty?

I think it might be from somewhere else, my WoG would probably focus on how the naval doctrine and ship design of the Empire is completely different to that of Ulthuan and very little would be transferrable. Cramming as much cannon as humanly possible into a longboat is a different tech tree than massive outriggers with dragons on top.
 
See that is the problem with me. Rarely does someone stop skimming. I have seen these is real life. Greed always take hold and the person or persons keep skimming.

Hypothetically the relative of a person I worked with who was in a higher position than me used their expenses account to hire a company they owned. Now the company did something trivial but they used the company they technically owned to hire a third party who did it for less than what was payed. Now it did not get noticed till we did a internal audit and realized we where paying 5 times as much for a service and it cost the company so much that they did not hire some new employees because of cost. The fallout was immense and the owner fired a executive and pushed charges on the offender, hypothetically.

Now the thing is the EIC exist not to get rich but to supply the forces of order and be Mathilde spy network. If someone skims that means they are more likely to hide stuff or sell out the EIC. So every person stealing is potential someone who will turn coat or cost the forces of order something.
It's a matter of degree. This was a major theme early in the quest—Mathilde started her career by embezzling her spymaster funds to pay student loans, and Van Hal made a big impression on her with his opinion of that kind of thing. De Verezzo levels of embezzling? You get dealt with. Mathilde levels of embezzling? Well, nothing's provable without significant effort, and there's bigger fish to fry.
 
I don't think control of an arcane mark would be more than a footnote in any hypothetical elf magic discussion though, so if we're prioritising for Elfcation then I'm not really fussed about getting it done.
Every magical elf we've met has been absolutely fascinated by our Arcane Marks; remember that they are quite literally a self-inflicted injury to the soul itself that is patched over with our Wind, simultaneously irrevocably cutting us off from wielding another Wind and granting an instinctual, intrinsic understanding of our Wind. To elven magical traditions, that's perverse and unthinkable; hardly a footnote.
 
Last edited:
Ok why our we going on elfcation? Because originally it was to get elgi favor some we can bring Ukthuan in on the project. But that has already happened. Now we can go to train Mathilde to be a dangerous assassin, which would be bad ass. Or do we even need to do elfcation now? Because we could do other things.
Its an Elfcation, not a Buisnelf Trip. We can go just because we want to.

(I know this was already answered, I just thought of a pithy reply I had to post)
 
It's a matter of degree. This was a major theme early in the quest—Mathilde started her career by embezzling her spymaster funds to pay student loans, and Van Hal made a big impression on her with his opinion of that kind of thing. De Verezzo levels of embezzling? You get dealt with. Mathilde levels of embezzling? Well, nothing's provable without significant effort, and there's bigger fish to fry.
More than just "Van Hal's Opinion Specifically" there very much is an view in the empire and states like it that a certain level of skimming is not just permissible but APPROPRIATE, an intended part of the benefits package. In a society where skimming is NOT viewed like that, anyone skimming is already self selected to be willing to take a very big plunge, whereas in a society where it IS viewed as kind of acceptable... it does not demonstrate that level of self-selection, and in fact is not THAT big of a deal to hide that a ton of poeple will be willing to take even BIGGER plunges to hide it.
 
Do we know that the Empire has even tried making reasonable offers to Marienberg, or whether revanchist forces within the Empire have seized on the opportunity to keep escalating the dispute in the hopes of manufacturing an excuse to invade, hoping that the Colleges mean they'll win this time? For all we know there are people blocking a diplomatic solution within the Empire, and that's part of why Marienberg is getting desperate. We really don't know much about the recent context or motivations of the major players.
Nothing explicit, but Shades of the Empire notes that the Empire has staunchly refused to formally ratify Marienburg's independence.

Hm, I *thought* there was a WoG that elf ships were mostly better because of the materials they're made of and the skill of their sailors and that the empire wouldn't be able to get much from studying them but I might be remembering something from drunken dynasty?
That's from DDOA after Freddy studied some captured Dork Elf ships.
 
I just want to stab a Druchii and have a mojito.
Elves have invented mojitos, surely?
Both mint and lime are native to the Old World and Ulthuan has global traders aplenty enough to have found them.

And if Ulthuan are super-Brits, located as they are in the middle of the Atlantic, then certainly they have both rum and gin aplenty.

TLDR: Elves have mojitos.
 
It's a matter of degree. This was a major theme early in the quest—Mathilde started her career by embezzling her spymaster funds to pay student loans, and Van Hal made a big impression on her with his opinion of that kind of thing. De Verezzo levels of embezzling? You get dealt with. Mathilde levels of embezzling? Well, nothing's provable without significant effort, and there's bigger fish to fry.
Worth noting that said levels of embezzlement were not only fairly low, they were going directly towards an immediate, substantial, and understandable need. Those student loans Mathilde was paying off were investments into Mathilde's ability to perform well as Spymistress of Stirland, and she did her job VERY well.

Also notably, once Mathilde didn't have that pressing and immediate need, she stopped doing it, even though having that money would have definitely made things a lot less precarious financially.

Similarly worth noting that the first major task Mathilde performed in her role was finding the missing tax codes and feudal contract (and records) of Stirland, which made a massive difference for Stirland's finances quite quickly. Given that De Verezzo's great sin was embezzlement on such a level that it substantially weakened the armed forces of Stirland, Mathilde basically immediately made the opposite kind of difference.

Combined with the fact that Mathilde was shoved into the position without warning or preparation, started with no budget, no informants or intelligence apparatus of any kind whatsoever, a bunch of student debt, nowhere to even sleep aside from a crappy, small, musty room somewhere, with the previous Elector Count and Spymaster both being traitors, the essential documents and records of the state stolen, and a Vampire conspiracy threatening Stirland itself (and another conspiracy choking her personally), it's almost crazy that the Grey College itself didn't step in to help at least a bit.

Abelhelm, Wilhemina, and Mathilde carried Stirland out of the deep, dark pit it was in without the people of Stirland ever knowing it, and Mathilde played her part when she was literally a brand-new Journeywoman with student debt and a magical conspiracy hanging over her head, under threat of death, with her own Master explaining that she had to cooperate with said conspiracy that was unsanctioned or be declared a Black Magister and hunted down.

I really like Regimand, I do, but jesus christ he fucking threw his apprentice into high-stakes hell with major student loans to repay and nothing more than the clothes on her back, and he had to be written a letter from said apprentice asking what the fuck was going on to give her any guidance whatsoever.

Eike's curiosity about why Mathilde didn't even contribute to a single paper until her mid-20s really brings to mind how batshit insane Mathilde's Journeying experience was. At least Dragomas went on his great journey into the Dark Lands entirely by choice. The fact that Mathilde finished her Journeying by leveling Castle Drakenhof and submitting a paper on reverse-engineered necromancy, got promoted, then went right the fuck away from the Empire to go join an expedition to reclaim eight goddamned mountains full of greenskins, skaven, trolls, and giant spiders and had a far better time says it all.

Mathilde's Journeying was so absurdly rough that it pretty much burned her out on living in the Empire at all (save perhaps the Grey College), let alone focusing her efforts there.

It also says a lot that of the entire magical item repitroire Mathilde has, precisely one of them enhances her ability to do traditional Grey Wizard things (and it's a divine magic item given to her by her god, to boot); the rest are all about fighting, killing, helping you do the killing, or surviving the fighting. Mathilde isn't outfitted like a spymaster, or an assassin, or an infiltrator, she's outfitted like she's a fucking Doom Slayer. She outsourced the spywork to a Perpetual as much as possible. She's the most atypical Grey Wizard alive, and I think a big part of that was being forced into being a kind of typical Grey Wizard under so much stress, fear, pressure, and high-stakes responsibility (and nothing to work with) without any kind of choice from when she was barely an adult, ending only with a big war where her own near-death experience while surrounded by undead was so minor a footnote that she basically never even registered it.

As a Magister, getting startled into a massive battle by the roar of a rampaging Emperor Dragon and four different enemy factions (and a mountain full of trolls) erupting into violence, finding out that she was the one in command and now had to deal with a complicated, three-dimensional battlefield was a challenge, not a crisis. Being told that a million-strong Waaagh was on its way and would arrive the next day had her react with an honest-to-god dismissal of "whatever, that's tomorrow's problem" before deciding to try killing as many foes as possible before the Waaagh arrived (so that she could kill them too).

A big, multinational pie-in-the-sky project to reverse-engineer Waystones in the first collaborative project between elves and dwarves in thousands of years, with her at the head of the project? That's the easiest, safest period in her life thus far, by a wide margin. And she still got a jumpscare by a Greater Daemon of Tzeench as a treat.
 
Last edited:
I think it might be from somewhere else, my WoG would probably focus on how the naval doctrine and ship design of the Empire is completely different to that of Ulthuan and very little would be transferrable. Cramming as much cannon as humanly possible into a longboat is a different tech tree than massive outriggers with dragons on top.
I've long thought that if elves are supposed to just be more skilled at things than humans,
they can probably actually navigate effectively and reliably in the open ocean by dead reckoning, without needing sextant and mechanical clock based latitude or longitude measurements, It's the sort of thing that's been proven possible in history, but most people don't actually do it because people who try usually aren't skilled enough at it to avoid dying,
which means that elves have an extraordinary advantage in both trade and naval warfare at this tech level, in that ships with elven navigators don't need to stick to known and commonly travelled routes to avoid getting lost and starving to death in the open ocean.
 
Last edited:
Lot of it just comes down to time.
When you can spend as long as an apprentice, as average human can spend working period, you can be expected to get very good.
 
it's almost crazy that the Grey College itself didn't step in to help at least a bit.
Huh. *Do* electors have the right to just, ask the grey college for intel on the threats facing them? I know the colleges aren't supposed to interfere in internal political matters (though they probably do a lot more than they pretend) but like, asking if the college has any info on a new von carstein running sylvania feels like something the electors would probably be entitled to? Or like, asking for them to be on the lookout for so and so the spymaster on suspicion of treason and heresy or what have you.

I'm just curious how much the Greys actually share around intel to people it might be relevant to.
 
Huh. *Do* electors have the right to just, ask the grey college for intel on the threats facing them? I know the colleges aren't supposed to interfere in internal political matters (though they probably do a lot more than they pretend) but like, asking if the college has any info on a new von carstein running sylvania feels like something the electors would probably be entitled to? Or like, asking for them to be on the lookout for so and so the spymaster on suspicion of treason and heresy or what have you.

I'm just curious how much the Greys actually share around intel to people it might be relevant to.

8. The Colleges must respond favourably to any reasonable request for specific service from any Elector of Sigmar's Holy Empire.
 
Huh. *Do* electors have the right to just, ask the grey college for intel on the threats facing them? I know the colleges aren't supposed to interfere in internal political matters (though they probably do a lot more than they pretend) but like, asking if the college has any info on a new von carstein running sylvania feels like something the electors would probably be entitled to? Or like, asking for them to be on the lookout for so and so the spymaster on suspicion of treason and heresy or what have you.

I'm just curious how much the Greys actually share around intel to people it might be relevant to.

I believe the Articles require the College to provide such assistance as requested against magical/supernatural threats, within reason. So yes in theory an Elector could probably send a message to the Greys asking for a briefing, and the Grey would be obliged to send them an info packet at the least.
 
Back
Top