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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Andres said:
If there were no evidence to the contrary, I'd say that high elves have engineers because the alternative is dumb. But there is evidence to the contrary, so the dumb thing is correct.
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Reading a game system as a perfect replication of the universe is just as, if not more, dumb than what you are saying. You just got someone pointing out to you that there are elf mines (even if that is from TW:WH) and that there wasn't a career representing that in 4e.

The point of WFRP is to be played in, not lived in. The authors also aren't going to go on to make sure every detail is perfect. Whether it's for balance, whim, or whatever. Or even if it's because giving them the career doesn't suit the vibes. While they would have them in the universe, they don't want them in games for whatever reason. Or they just don't think to give them access.

Aura said:
I mean, I think it's plausible that there aren't 'Elven Engineers' but rather Elves who do Engineering as a side part of other jobs- possibly just shipwrights who happen to also design land weapons, or architects who work on civil works. A strange setup, but not totally implausible.
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The WFRP career system doesn't work like that. It's not designed to be something you solely do and nothing else.
 
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Andres said:
If a career is listed and a species is excluded from the career in that list, that's evidence of absence.
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This seems to pretty clearly fall under the "Game mechanics should not be taken as canon." clause.

Canonicity (for Quest purposes)
Tier 1: The Quest itself is primary canon.
Tier 2: WoQM applies unless it violates Quest canon (which I assume it has or will at some point).
Tier 3: Army Books (6th+), WHFRPG 2e - reasonably safe to assume that the fluff in these is canon unless the Quest or WoQM says otherwise. Game mechanics should not be taken as canon.
Tier 4: Black Library, White Dwarf articles - canonish, but the QM may not be familiar with them and the details are likely to end up varying if they are used.
Tier 5: Licensed video games, Warhammer Armies Project, WHFRPG 3e & 4e - mostly only used for things that aren't otherwise covered in higher tiers, and by default are not canon.
Tier 6: Army Books (pre-6th), WHFRPG (1e) - the Dwarf Priests Know Necromancy Zone. May be looted for ideas from time to time but is usually completely incompatible.
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If we're going for very circumstantial evidence that the Asur do at least a little mining within Ulthuan, there's this from the 6th Edition Army book (where 5E and earlier are 'lol 1980s-90s', 6E is relatively canon to the quest):

Dug from beneath the Annuli mountains, this crystal has been shaped by the magical vortex that swathes Albion, so that it draws magical energy towards it.
 
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Ok so I will most likely hate myself later but what plans are people thinking about next turn? Because I would like to either get the Ostland league absorbed or build an internal audit department next turn. I thought about the Ilthimar league and I do have a fear someone will do it before us. But I hope it will hold right before we leave of elfcation. Even though we could use it to get another house on the our side.

So we are definitely doing Mathilde orbs of magic, and waystone prototype, but t at leaves us potentially 3 options open. I would like to learn a languages and research one of our many backlogs. Because those swords or the alter would be a boon. The swords I think may be a way to enchant weapons to fight creatures of the warp. It's more of feeling since I think the kurgan would want to prioritize that since chaos wastes. The alter would be an introduction to Lilith which would be interesting.

As for the last option I am thinking we bring in bretonia. It is for politcal reasons since if we bring them in that is every major power in the old world involved in the waystone project.

So what are peoples thoughts?
 
I would like to get everything to do with AV 100% done. Get the morbs made and turned in along with the book, all at once.

For a personal/research action, getting around to finally studying the ghyran nut with Panormia would be really nice.

For the EIC action, I think I'd like to go for the aforementioned 'aid the creation of the fog road'.

I'd like to spend at least two AP on the Waystone project, as well.
 
I definitely want to take the Ithilmar action, before someone else does and the opportunity to make literally thousands of gold, if not tens of thousands, is lost. We don't have any other time-sensitive EIC actions.

I'd also be down for learning Kislevarin.
 
Nurgle said:
So what are peoples thoughts?
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I'm for something along the lines of either

[ ] [ ] Orbs, Waystone Prototype
[ ] Second Waystone Action (Bugman's nexus exploration bringing Eike/Thorek in the hopes of some minor skirmish and as prep for perhaps the easiest Nexus Reclamation project we have available)
[ ] Arcane Mark mastery
[ ] Codify Knightbringer

OR

[ ] [ ] Orbs, Waystone Prototype
[ ] WEBMAT: Egrimm—Sevirophone (with hired auditory-windsense journeyman/perpetual)
[ ] WEBMAT: Johann—Lovely Laurelorn (Ward of Storms), with Eike/Wolf
[ ] WEBMAT: Max—Lustrian paper write-up
[ ] Second Waystone Action

with
EIC: Ithilmar, KAU: corpus-copy Aquila Academy, Serenity: AV book
for both
 
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GrimTheMad said:
I would like to get everything to do with AV 100% done. Get the morbs made and turned in along with the book, all at once.

For a personal/research action, getting around to finally studying the ghyran nut with Panormia would be really nice.

For the EIC action, I think I'd like to go for the aforementioned 'aid the creation of the fog road'.

I'd like to spend at least two AP on the Waystone project, as well.
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I feel like for the EIC we have other actions we would like to do first. Plus I would like to lock down mid guard trade first. We could control the gong trade and make more niter, which we can than sell to dawi or Nuln. Or build the internal investigation, which I believe from my personal real life experience is needed. Internal investigation is tremendously important to find out if someone is embezzling money. Because I have had investigations in real life finding out people that were embezzling money. Unlike the fantasy most people have it actually hurts other people and causes problems.
 
I think the major plan differences next turn will have to do with AV, as some people will want to finish the book right away and some are content to go slower. See my Brief Guide to Flexing for discussion of the pros and cons thereof.

My personal wishlist for next turn is something like orbs + waystone prototype (must-haves), slow-rolling the book (I am fine with either Delayed Flex or Leave Em Hanging, as approaches), investigating the Karaz Ankor waystones or the Bugman nexus with Thorek, investigating the seed with Panoramia (people are talking about getting new stuff from Lothern and we still haven't investigated all the old stuff we spent money on last time), and either studying an Arcane Mark or hitting up the Ward of Storms. But lots of things are fine by me; I expect to approval-vote widely.
 
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I want to get started on our Tributary rollout backlog. We've got something like 9 AP worth of actions we need to do there. Perferably we'd go for the one two punch like I described here:
MonkeyTypewriter said:
I've been looking into options for helping the Haléthans out since there's a lot of thread support for that, and I think I've got an inkling of a plan.

So to start, I'm taking the position that Halétha is a regional god and, absent us getting a majority of the Prime Estates to agree to sign an amendment to the Articles of Magic to legalize the Hedgewise Empire wide we're going to need a series of local solutions. Which brings me to my plan: bribe the Count of Ostland with a one-two punch by taking the following actions on the same turn.

[ ] Tributary: Haléthan (Ostland)
[ ] EIC: Salkten-Laurelorn Charcoal Route (Haléthan)

Now, we know that the Salkten route is solidly profitable long term, but needs a substantial amount of investment to get off the ground and probably doesn't have the best ROI. But that's fine, we're not in this for the profit per say, we're in this for the diplomatic and nepotistic opportunities. See, Ostland is far away from the traditional centers of the EIC, so we'll need a local partner to help out and it would obviously be completely reasonable for Mathilda to ask her respected colleague Lector Aksel if he has any recommendations. And if said local partner happens to be a devout Haléthan woodsman/businessman well then I'm sure coincidences happen right? Oh, and we need a priest. Gotta have a priest to look over our operation, make sure the spiritual needs are getting tended to and all the proper observations are being made. Since the business involves cutting down trees in the Forrest of Shadows, getting a (probably lay, non-hedgewise) priest of the goddess of that forest is only good sense. And if in the process we give the Cult of Halétha something resembling a reliable income stream that they can use to start doing things? Well, what a surprise things ended up that way.

So when we talk to the Elector Count of Ostland we're not just talking about how to roll out the Haléthan tributaries we'll also be talking about the exciting new (Haléthan) business that's coming to his province, and all he has to do to take care of these exciting opportunities is not burn the priests of Halétha while they help out his province.


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But overall I'm seriously worried the thread's going to try to put off actually rolling anything out as long as possible because that's not especially exciting to read.
 
Nurgle said:
The trade group that controls ostland trade, they had sent someone earlier to talk to Mathilde but we should bring them under the EIC control since they have ship building( which people have stated to wanting to have) and it be helpful to be able to supply Kislev in the future.
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That was actually Ostermark.

I'm more than happy to leave that entirely up to Wilhelmina. I think she's got it well in hand.
 
I guess my issue with the 'leave them hanging' thing is that there's being mysterious in a fun way and there's being mysterious in a frustrating/obstructing way- dropping the orbs off and refusing to elaborate for six months feels like the latter, to me.

Rolling in with a wheelbarrow, dramatically unveiling a pile of Orbs of Sorcery, then dropping the Full and Complete Guide to Aetheric Vitae on Algard's desk in a mirror to what we did with Queekish just feels a lot better.
 
Also, the League of Ostermark is the name of the province itself, not the name of a trade concern from that province. I'm not even sure that Ostermark has a single dominating trade concern as opposed to a handful of competitors.
 
I'm with pickle on this. While I would prefer to do everything AV related in one go to just be done with it already and also giga-galaxy-omega-flex, a more realistic options are probably either Delayed Flex or Leave Them Hanging.

But, as to the EIC...
Nurgle said:
Ok so I will most likely hate myself later but what plans are people thinking about next turn? Because I would like to either get the Ostland league absorbed or build an internal audit department next turn. I thought about the Ilthimar league and I do have a fear someone will do it before us. But I hope it will hold right before we leave of elfcation. Even though we could use it to get another house on the our side.
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The League of Ostermark is the formal name for the actual province of Ostermark, the EIC is not going to absorb it. We neither can (our actions are mostly just intrigue-ish trade actions, not the full extent of what we'd be allowed had we picked a different approach with the EIC a long time ago) or need to (Wilhelmina immediately started on trying to get a new arrangement with them when she heard about the canal).

I would state a preference for taking the River paramilitary EIC action, but honestly, I think Eike is at the point where we could just assign her to do that entirely on her own, and we can do a different action like the ithilmar trading or help with the RoW towers. I have full confidence in Eike being able to do a kickass river paramilitary, she has the Naval Tactics skill on top of her Keep The Wagons Rolling trait.
 
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My preferred plan would be something like this:

[] Create Orbs of Sorcery Solo (Eike too!)
[] Waystone: Build a Waystone
[] Waystone: Experiment with alternatives to the Waystone Rune
[] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor)
[] Learn Kislevarin (Eike too!)
[] SERENITY: AV Book (with Max)
[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit (Eike too!)
[] KAU: Have the Scribes learn all of the Old World languages

I'd prefer to drop the Orbs and the book simultaneously. I don't mind bringing Max on for the book, now that we've done all of the research solo.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
My preferred plan would be something like this:

[] Create Orbs of Sorcery Solo (Eike too!)
[] Waystone: Build a Waystone
[] Waystone: Experiment with alternatives to the Waystone Rune
[] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor)
[] Learn Kislevarin (Eike too!)
[] SERENITY: AV Book (with Max)
[ ] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit (Eike too!)
[] KAU: Have the Scribes learn all of the Old World languages

I'd prefer to drop the Orbs and the book simultaneously. I don't mind bringing Max on for the book, now that we've done all of the research solo.
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I'll point out that Maxing as part of a Serenity action doesn't give us twice the writing speed (or we'd do it all the time); it has to be a regular AP, or 2/3 of a regular AP if we go for the WEB-MAT efficiency bonus.

I do want to learn Kislevarin soon, but right now I want to prioritize skills for the Elfternship, and to me the obvious standouts are Arcane Mark control (since we talk so much shit about our Marks being a valid alternate path of mastery to the Elf style of magic and we should really put our money where our mouth is) and getting the next rank in the Eonir Diplomacy skill, since an extra point in diplo is an extra point in diplo and the narrative benefits of Advanced Eonir Diplomacy will help us navigate the politics of Laurelorn. Besides, since we opted to not get books from Boris and instead get canals, it's a minimum of three turns before we might possibly need Kislevarin: one turn for our scribes to learn it, one turn to negotiate with a library that has Kislevarin books (my preference being Karak Vlag, which may have Fire Spire books and which is extremely likely to play ball with us), one turn to copy their books. So there isn't much time pressure for Kislevarin, and since I want to go on the Elfternship on T44 I want to prioritize actions usable for that.
 
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MonkeyTypewriter said:
But overall I'm seriously worried the thread's going to try to put off actually rolling anything out as long as possible because that's not especially exciting to read.
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I personally don't really plan to personally dedicate an action to each province for tributary roll-outs. I think seeding the three different kinds of tributary in a three provinces respectively, spread out geographically is the most we'd need to do. After that it can spread organically as their neighbors see the benefits, get jealous, and implement it themselves. I don't think we need to handhold the entire thing.
 
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If we did go for Sevirophone research with Egrimm, we'd still need someone with auditory windsense. That's easily-enough hired through the Colleges.

The questions then are: Perpetual or Journeyman? (Magister+ being a bit overkill for our needs with two LM enchanters) Paid with gold, CF, or try to find someone happy with just the promise of credit on the results and paper?

picklepikkl said:
to me the obvious standouts are Arcane Mark control (since we talk so much shit about our Marks being a valid alternate path of mastery to the Elf style of magic and we should really put our money where our mouth is) and getting the next rank in the Eonir Diplomacy skill
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I do think there's a case to be made for taking Scouting Training with the Dwarven Rangers (and bringing Eike along). We're a pip off of a rank-up on it, +1 Intrigue is as likely to be as useful as +1 Diplomacy, and Scouting is likely to be useful in general in Nagarythe. On the other hand, it's quite possible that we'd end up skilling it up "for free" as part of the Elfcation itself, depending on how that goes. And Arcane Mark control and Eonir Diplomacy are more likely to be useful after we're done and come home.
 
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picklepikkl said:
I'll point out that Maxing as part of a Serenity action doesn't give us twice the writing speed (or we'd do it all the time); it has to be a regular AP, or 2/3 of a regular AP if we go for the WEB-MAT efficiency bonus.
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Yeah, I don't mind waiting a turn for the Gigaflex.

picklepikkl said:
I do want to learn Kislevarin soon, but right now I want to prioritize skills for the Elfternship, and to me the obvious standouts are Arcane Mark control (since we talk so much shit about our Marks being a valid alternate path of mastery to the Elf style of magic and we should really put our money where our mouth is) and getting the next rank in the Eonir Diplomacy skill, since an extra point in diplo is an extra point in diplo and the narrative benefits of Advanced Eonir Diplomacy will help us navigate the politics of Laurelorn. Besides, since we opted to not get books from Boris and instead get canals, it's a minimum of three turns before we might possibly need Kislevarin: one turn for our scribes to learn it, one turn to negotiate with a library that has Kislevarin books (my preference being Karak Vlag, which may have Fire Spire books and which is extremely likely to play ball with us), one turn to copy their books. So there isn't much time pressure for Kislevarin, and since I want to go on the Elfternship on T44 I want to prioritize actions usable for that.
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This is a good point. I definitely want the scribes learning the language, but Mathilde learning it isn't on the critical path for a turn or two. (It might take 2 actions, so to be optimal we should probably start it next turn, but delaying for another turn probably isn't a big deal.)

I think the Advanced Eonir Diplomacy is more likely to pay off than Arcane Mark control, which I suspect they'll just file under "humans do magic weird". And if we thought it really mattered we ought to be controlling all of our arcane marks to avoid whatever sneering people are worrying about, and I don't think we have the time budget for that, unless we want to put off Elfcation for another turn or two.
 
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Ok if we want to make a really good showing for elfaction than we need to make Mathilde more Killy. So that is doing the mark and bringing it under control. Doing the counting action, which is also good so we can train Eike too. Or finish one of the other actions to make Mathilde more dangerous.
 
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