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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Well, there are a LOT of people that logic can apply to, and Mathilde having nightmares about applying it to people she likes is pretty straightforward.
 
GrimTheMad said:
Frankly I'm more in line with Mathilde's Ranaldian line of thought here.

With great power comes great responsibility and all that, especially when that power comes at cost to others- Vlad had all the power but took no responsibility for it, even blocking his son's efforts to make up for his deficiencies.

He wasn't evil, but he was willing to stand by and do nothing- and when you're a head of state, that's bad enough.
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I fully agree. Vladimir could have chosen to abdicate from his throne at any point, he could have chosen to do his job and not damn tens of thousands by inaction, he did none of these things so he was retired from life. Tough.

We have other things to think about

Glau said:
Well, there are a LOT of people that logic can apply to, and Mathilde having nightmares about applying it to people she likes is pretty straightforward.
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I do not think we would like people to which the logic applies at least not to which it would apply to anything like the same degree. the magnitude of the failure matters.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
I can only hope the newly elevated Tsar does the decent thing and doesn't go after them as a suspect, because he's the only one in the world who really, really knows that that poor sap didn't do it.
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Almost certainly. Boris has a specific group he's going to blame...unless the bedmate is a member of it, they're safe.

Glau said:
Well, there are a LOT of people that logic can apply to, and Mathilde having nightmares about applying it to people she likes is pretty straightforward.
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Yeah, a few nightmares makes sense. I think, as others note, that it'd just be a few sleepless nights rather than a major ongoing preoccupation for the Ranaldite reasons discussed, but I doubt she'd sleep perfectly well in the immediate aftermath.
 
Byzantine said:
He didn't even need to abdicate. He could just use the incredible power of delegation to give Boris the power - and responsibility - to prepare Kislev for the coming storm. Boris would have happily gone with that.
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Kings have attempted that historically, it rarely works because the nobles tend to play games with which one they think is legitimate depending on what their own interests are. In a system like Kislev you want there to be no ambiguity about who the big boss is at any given time.
 
I'm going to say Mathilde should feel conflicted but not guilty to the point of nightmares.

That was an excellent omake, but I doubt we'll ever again be in a situation where we assassinate a head of state because they are not doing enough while their nation is the front line against Chaos and also they won't step down for their successor, and also the successor has expressed that he will start a civil war if he can't get our help.

This was as much to empower Boris as it was to prevent Kislev's and by extension the Old World's weakening in the lead-up to an Everchosen.

For Mathilde's mental health we should think of this as a one-off.
 
GrimTheMad said:
Frankly I'm more in line with Mathilde's Ranaldian line of thought here.

With great power comes great responsibility and all that, especially when that power comes at cost to others- Vlad had all the power but took no responsibility for it, even blocking his son's efforts to make up for his deficiencies.

He wasn't evil, but he was willing to stand by and do nothing- and when you're a head of state, that's bad enough.
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There is something very Ranaldian about taking something from those who don't deserve it. He may not have been an evil man, but he squandered the Tzardom and squandered his life. It fell to us to steal both from him so they could fall into more deserving hands.
 
Ok going back to my idea for using the EIC to bring about a multi plan boon. Trade is incredibly useful and can help both Mathilde and Kislev. Weapons sells can help both the empire and Kislev. Just regular trade alone will help both sides.

Opening trade will help the empire, Kislev and Varg. We can bring the gong guild to Kislev. That is biter that can then be sold to Varg. Which then can be used to buy powder and sold to Kislev. Ok now before the communist block who hates Mathilde making money comes at me we can keep the margins low and pay taxes. Like what the EIC does in the empire. These will help Kislev with something it desperately needs, money.

Now the second part the EIC will buy books for the Grand Library. The library will pay the EIC to pay the Kislev institutions to copy their books and then have the EIC transport them back. These can be taxed but also helps the institutions in that they get money. Anyone who has worked for a library has experienced knows they constantly need money. Things break down, roofs need to be repaired, staff needs to be payed, paper/ink needs to be bought, and so on. Mathilde gets her books and gets eight peaks to pay for it while giving money to Kislev.

The third part is going to be tricky. Boris can not outright stop the ice witches from killing men who show magic. While some are allowed to flee to the empire a lot of the rural ones are just killed. The EIC can hire young men and boys as "guides" and if they happen to have magic while they are in the empire they can join the colleges. That is going to be a lot of political talk on Boris side.

Now the reason I propose to go about it these way is because Kislev needs money. Boris literally said Kislev is rich in people and resources but poor in money. Mathilde's gets books, men do not get killed for having magic(which I believe is something Mathilde would want since it is close to her), and Kislev gets money to help Boris repair.
 
Remember we have nothing from the old Tsar's point of view, so we don't know why he was doing as he was and if there were any secret reasons for things.

It's a lot easier to judge if you only get one side. Which is good for Mathilde's mental health, but it's also something she knows and would be aware she did.
 
KingCrimson1081 said:
I imagine Boris's reaction to his father's death would to immediately order some of the best magical defenses he can. Because while he may have ordered the death I imagine the sheer ease at which Mathilde did it would still freak him out about the same thing happening to him. Plus since he would be blaming the Lahmians no one would bat an eye at the added security measures for the new Tzar.
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He might even call in his good friend Lady Magister Mathilde Weber for advice!

"Now, the thing about the existing defenses you have is... they're kinda shit when it comes to magic. Literally any grey magister with a year or two under their belt could get through them, stab you in your sleep, and be out before sunrise. Fortunately for you, I've devised the perfect set of defenses to keep such inconveniences at bay. So tell me...

...have you heard the word of our Lord and Saviour Ranald?"
 
Glau said:
Remember we have nothing from the old Tsar's point of view, so we don't know why he was doing as he was and if there were any secret reasons for things.

It's a lot easier to judge if you only get one side. Which is good for Mathilde's mental health, but it's also something she knows and would be aware she did.
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The thing is this is not a trial. I do not care about his point of view because this is not about justice it is about the lives and souls of the people he swore to protect. Unless Boris was lying about his father not being willing to put the power of his office behind the tributaries Vladimir's life was forfeit for that one narrow cause alone

Boney said:
Once every decade or so, there'll be a Waaagh or an Chaos Lord or a Vampire War or a Beastlord or an awakening of some insufficiently dead horror that will threaten the Empire with immediate and direct devastation. A gradual ramp-up in background magic levels causing an indirect stochastic increase in several varieties of unwanted events over the course of millennia isn't on the Empire's radar. It's on Kislev's, because they're losing measurable amounts of good grazelands to Troll Country every year and Praag is teetering on the edge of the line between livable and not, but that immediacy won't be knocking on the Empire's door in Luitpold's lifetime.
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A city, the third largest city, the third largest city in the country is teetering on the edge of not being inhabitable and Vladimir would not use his power behind the solution. His people are losing agricultural land to the advance of hell and he will do nothing to help.

Maybe it was fear of magic, maybe it was ignorance, maybe it was Maybelline, it does not matter because we did not kill him out of a sense of justice, we killed him because it was the only way to avoid horror and suffering on a enormous scale. When as a king you are a problem that starts with 'how many souls will Chaos get to devour' because of you good people are going to want to kill you because they do not want souls devoured by Chaos, it is that simple.
 
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DragonParadox said:
The thing is this is not a trial. I do not care about his point of view because this is not about justice it is about the lives and souls of the people he swore to protect. Unless Boris was lying about his father not being willing to put the power of his office behind the tributaries Vladimir's life was forfeit on the basis on that path for that one narrow cause alone
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Based on what we saw of Boris through Mathilde's windsight, I'm convinced that he at least believed he was telling the truth. And while he could have been mistaken, and Vlad could have had some huge anti-chaos scheme in the works, Boris would have been the natural person to be told about it as both his heir (for continuing it in case Vlad caught a nasty case of death) and someone who was actively pushing for more anti-chaos stuff (someone doing that is either a traitor looking for groups to infiltrate and sabotage, or genuinely devoted to the goal- either way, you want them on your side).
 
Well, we did go straight to Boris as soon as we had actual results for the Waystones, so it's unclear if the Tsar even knew that deploying them was a live possiblity.

And chaos has been quiet for nearly two centuries, plus they just got a border fortress back, so it may not have been clear to the tsar that there was even anything to worry about.

Hard to say if he was even aware of the reasons we killed him for.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is this is not a trial. I do not care about his point of view because this is not about justice it is about the lives and souls of the people he swore to protect. Unless Boris was lying about his father not being willing to put the power of his office behind the tributaries Vladimir's life was forfeit for that one narrow cause alone
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"We should be able to kill people without a trial" is a much scarier belief than "we should be able to put people on trial."
 
Glau said:
Well, we did go straight to Boris as soon as we had actual results for the Waystones, so it's unclear if the Tsar even knew that deploying them was a live possiblity.

And chaos has been quiet for nearly two centuries, plus they just got a border fortress back, so it may not have been clear to the tsar that there was even anything to worry about.

Hard to say if he was even aware of the reasons we killed him for.
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Unless you want to argue that Boris was lying, with his soul somehow because we saw his emotions, he went to the Tsar with the information and the Tsar would do nothing, there is no other reasonable way to interpret this being the straw that broke the camel's back that lead to assassination.

Ignorance is not a defense when it comes to responsibility over the lives and in this matter souls of millions. That may be unfair, tough, it is unfair that Mathilde was born with a native inclination towards exploding into daemons, this is the world they inhabit, these are the responsibilities they took upon themselves, one too fail and one to keep.
 
Fouredged Sword said:
There is no justice for kings and emperors. How can there be when they are the source of justice for all that they rule?
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Justice should (I'm not saying it is, but it should) be equally applied for all. Or perhaps 'proportionally applied' would be better? Regardless, there should be justice for kings, emperors, etc, though they should be held to higher standards than the average person due to the greater power they wield and greater harm their action or inaction can cause.
 
Saidoro said:
"We should be able to kill people without a trial" is a much scarier belief than "we should be able to put people on trial."
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That's as may be, but it is kinda the one we're stuck with - "judge, jury, and executioner" is not typically a phrase associated with the delivery of impartial justice in any event. Might as well not lie to ourselves about it.
 
I suspect that Vlad probably had a fairly self serving but likely sincere belief in the good of local control by Boyars instead of national control by himself. Basically a political philosophy of limited government feudalism that entirely coincidentally left him a lot of time for hunting. Everyone wants to feel that they're doing the right thing, after all.
 
Saidoro said:
"We should be able to kill people without a trial" is a much scarier belief than "we should be able to put people on trial."
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Welcome to Warhammer Fantasy, this is Mathilde Weber, she is a member of the Grey Order, that is what they do. She has had that belief for a while now. :V

Also trials are in most cases conducted by the warlord with the appropriate inbreeding or their representatives and have only a passing glance at the concept of evidence. Vlad being killed without a trial was only extraordinary because he had said inbreeding.
 
Parabola said:
I'm going to say Mathilde should feel conflicted but not guilty to the point of nightmares.

That was an excellent omake, but I doubt we'll ever again be in a situation where we assassinate a head of state because they are not doing enough while their nation is the front line against Chaos and also they won't step down for their successor, and also the successor has expressed that he will start a civil war if he can't get our help.

This was as much to empower Boris as it was to prevent Kislev's and by extension the Old World's weakening in the lead-up to an Everchosen.

For Mathilde's mental health we should think of this as a one-off.
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I think this bolded part is the most important point as far as Mathilde's long term mental state goes. Mathilde didn't proactively decide to kill off a leader for not being good enough, no one voted for a plan with a '[ ] Involve yourself in current affairs: kill the Tzar' action. Mathilde was told that Boris wants the Tzar dead, and while she had the option of washing her hands of it and letting events play out I imagine she would have felt guilty about that too. It's not hard to imagine Mathilde hearing stories about the war in Kislev and all the lives lost and thinking to herself that this could all have been avoided if only she was willing to sully her hands.

Now, Mathilde could have taken a principled stance against murder and averted a civil war by stabbing Boris on the spot, but again, I think she would've felt guilty in that case as well.
 
Vladimir irl would be a pretty average ruler with his issues. Not at all deadly and his realm relatively stable.

But in the world of Warhammer? Those issues are VASTYLY more dangerous, doubly so since this Kislev. It's not great that this had to be done, but your not always gonna have the best cards to play.
 
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