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Well that's kind of why I want to ask Aksel for help, to get an answer to that open question. Or are you saying that since the liminal realm Mathilde is creating is artifical the Hedgewise are likely to not be useful, and Mathilde's understanding of liminal magic means she wouldn't bother to try?

To be honest, this line of inquiry is somewhat reminding me of the time we wrote in to bring Johann to look for the Norse dwarves and then the thread got all riled up because we were worried we were limiting our options.

Mathilde is capable of drawing on other sources herself if it makes sense, like we saw when she checked in with Codrin Petrescu.

So in general I am not a fan of the approach of putting a bunch of qualifiers and directions on the base actions.
 
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Yes? Ultimately the floor of effectiveness of a Red Rider is higher than that hypothetical spell. If we want to confuse and disorient we can just cast Miasma anyway. And they can't resist that in any way, unlike something that actually affects the mind. While even if they have max anti-cavalry bonuses or something they still have to spend effort killing them which is good for us.

Essentially Red Riders work well with both BM's we have (Both Rite of Way and Miasma) while a hypothetical Whispering Darkness Apparition might overlap significantly with what we already do anyway.

Firstly, I do not believe that a Whispering Darkness spell is less effective than a Red Rider Spell—one summons a monster that drives people insane, the other summons a monster that stabs people.

Which is a thing we can already do. Stabbing people, that is. Meanwhile, altering perceptions isn't really something we can do—oh, we have illusions and stuff, but actually targeting an opponent's mind in battlefield conditions isn't one of our capabilities, and is substantially different from Melkoths.

A Whispering Darkness apparition might also be harder to kill because it doesn't have a physical form. A Red Rider very much does. Yes, the Red Rider is resistant to non-magical weapons. It can still get stabbed a lot, or bogged down in melee.
 
Again, we should just send Eike to spy on things since even if we find no reason to intervene it's still good experience for her. And if we find something that could help/hinder us then all the better.
Pulling shit with a full-on EC already on suspicious footing is unlikely to be a productive learning opportunity. That is way out of the league of an apprentice.
If that is your goal you should pick something small. We could use her as a fun way to get an update of Spidersilk, for example.
 
but actually targeting an opponent's mind in battlefield conditions isn't one of our capabilities, and is substantially different from Melkoths.

How is this not affecting minds?

M / Dread Aspect: Makes you seem absolutely terrifying to all those who look upon you for one minute.
M / Universal Confusion: Bewilder, but applies to a whole group at once, up to about a ten meter diameter. Short range.
Mastery - Cloud of Confusion: You can cast the spell as a billowing cloud of bewildering gas, which pours from you for several minutes, constantly effecting everyone nearby.

A Whispering Darkness apparition might also be harder to kill because it doesn't have a physical form. A Red Rider very much does. Yes, the Red Rider is resistant to non-magical weapons. It can still get stabbed a lot, or bogged down in melee.

This is one of the Riders greatest advantages though, not a weak point. It being able to actually fight in a melee brawl is one of the main use cases we want from it.
 
[ ] Plan Little Bit of Everything
-[ ] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
-[ ] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror )
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[ ] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[ ] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, EIC Agents in Nordland
-[ ] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[ ] Plan Dark Little Bit of Everything
-[ ] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[ ] EGRIMM: Windherding (Stat-Swapping Mirror )
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[ ] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[ ] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Egrimm, Elrisse, Niedzwenka, Zlata)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Tochter, Cadaeth)
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[ ] COIN: The Gambler (Attempt to create a liminal realm)
-[ ] Eike Actions: Lustrian books and rubbings study, EIC Agents in Nordland
-[ ] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

Here are my plans. I liked most of redshirt's plan as well as the bring running shoes plan, but instead of doing a variant made my own plan merging the two.
I have seen strong arguments both ways for apparitions so made two versions.
 
Well, one more unrelated question. Mathilde commented on Hoeth's lack of sword. Do her books not contain a myth not known to the Cults, for it comes from the Asur Eonir, in which Hoeth steals a sword from a daemon called Ulgu? I would've thought Mathilde would have had a small heart attack upon coming across the name Tlanxla, so if it's not in the update I guess it's not in the books, but I figured I'll make sure.

No, there doesn't seem to be any link between Hoeth and swords in the myths the Eonir have, nor does there seem to be any tradition of 'Swordmasters' among the Eonir worshippers of Him.
 
Pulling shit with a full-on EC already on suspicious footing is unlikely to be a productive learning opportunity. That is way out of the league of an apprentice.
If that is your goal you should pick something small. We could use her as a fun way to get an update of Spidersilk, for example.
I don't want to give her something small, I want to give her something important. Even if sucks for her it's still a learning experience. Considering the shit we got into as a mere Journeywoman I don't think we should baby Eike and let her try to do actually dangerous things, because she's gonna have to face them anyway, and better our allies catch her than our enemies. Plus my plan puts the Gambler on her anyway as a type of protection.

But most importantly, her dream is to be like Mathilde. Why don't we let her try it out then and see if that's what she truly wants?
 
I want to do the EIC for path, it's one of the man reasons we codified RoW and as useful as having info ok Norland would be I think RoW would just be more useful.

It would directly build ties between the Eonir and Middlenheim which I imagine will make the EC very happy to have a new source of income and I imagine quite a lot of other EC happy because of elven goods.
 
I don't want to give her something small, I want to give her something important. Even if sucks for her it's still a learning experience. Considering the shit we got into as a mere Journeywoman I don't think we should baby Eike and let her try to do actually dangerous things, because she's gonna have to face them anyway, and better our allies catch her than our enemies. Plus my plan puts the Gambler on her anyway as a type of protection.

But most importantly, her dream is to be like Mathilde. Why don't we let her try it out then and see if that's what she truly wants?

Er... I know there is a value in not coddling her, but have you considered what it would looks like if she failed something important badly enough? We would then have to clean up her mess at the cost of AP probably, if it even could be fixed. I do not think throwing our apprentice in the deep end is inherently valuable enough that we should risk that kind of mess.
 
@Boney How deliberate was your decision to have us specify the apparition already? The discussion so far kinda makes me feel like that could deserve it's own mid-turn vote.

I don't want to give her something small, I want to give her something important. Even if sucks for her it's still a learning experience. Considering the shit we got into as a mere Journeywoman I don't think we should baby Eike and let her try to do actually dangerous things, because she's gonna have to face them anyway, and better our allies catch her than our enemies. Plus my plan puts the Gambler on her anyway as a type of protection.

But most importantly, her dream is to be like Mathilde. Why don't we let her try it out then and see if that's what she truly wants?
As a Journeygal Mathilde did stuff like infiltrating single barons. Infiltrating an entire Elector from scratch would have been a multi-turn project back then.
 
To be honest, this line of inquiry is somewhat reminding me of the time we wrote in to bring Johann to look for the Norse dwarves and then the thread got all riled up because we were worried we were limiting our options.

Mathilde is capable of drawing on other sources herself if it makes sense, like we saw when she checked in with Codrin Petrescu.

So in general I am not a fan of the approach of putting a bunch of qualifiers and directions on the base actions.
I actually agree, in general. The reason I wanted the answer to this particular question is that there's a face of the coin that makes some Hedgewise trust us, so if there's a chance they'll be involved in the liminal realm action that's something that's relevant for writing turn plans.
No, there doesn't seem to be any link between Hoeth and swords in the myths the Eonir have, nor does there seem to be any tradition of 'Swordmasters' among the Eonir worshippers of Him.
That's fascinating, because that implies that myth either isn't all that old or it was lost to the Eonir. I can't think of any reason why either would be the case.

I did once speculate that Hoeth's sword perhaps symbolizes Hoeth's fight against Chaos which was done mostly through the Waystone network, and the Eonir weren't really full partners to that project. The Eonir's split with the Asur doesn't predate the coming of Chaos or the vortex but maybe the myth was created sometime during the development of the network?
 
I'm surprised at how big the push is to get the Orbs done this turn, without the safety of the Room of Utter Neutrality.

The liminal realms exploration got a lot of discussion on whether to do it outside and how safe/unsafe it would be, but prior to the first plans dropping I don't think the Orb construction was mentioned as a thing for this turn at all.
 
I don't want to do Elfcation yet - I'd rather wait for Apparition Binding to be done. Yes, there's been an endless conga line of "prerequisites" for the Elfcation, but we've dropped most of them already. This is the only improvement to Mathilde's killing power I can see in Mathilde's future, it's something a lot of the thread already want to do, and it'll take ~2 AP, which happens to line up nicely with people wanting to do Elfcation on T44.

I also don't want to bring Bretonnia in until we have something impressive enough that they actively want to join, which we expect to be pretty soon. We can get more concessions from them that way - and at the most basic level, those concessions can be pouring more support into the Project than they otherwise would. Why go spending AP to get a Damsel, when waiting might get us a few consultations with the Fay Enchantress?
 
I did once speculate that Hoeth's sword perhaps symbolizes Hoeth's fight against Chaos which was done mostly through the Waystone network, and the Eonir weren't really full partners to that project. The Eonir's split with the Asur doesn't predate the coming of Chaos or the vortex but maybe the myth was created sometime during the development of the network?
ALSO lacking the swordmasters makes it seem like it might be more of a just so story about the militarization of the white tower specifically in reaction to the sundering. Technically that happened before the eonir split from ulthuan but honestly it sounds like the CULTURAL divergence from ulthuan may have actually been going on long before the war of the beard itself.
 
Er... I know there is a value in not coddling her, but have you considered what it would looks like if she failed something important badly enough? We would then have to clean up her mess at the cost of AP probably, if it even could be fixed. I do not think throwing our apprentice in the deep end is inherently valuable enough that we should risk that kind of mess.

@Boney How deliberate was your decision to have us specify the apparition already? The discussion so far kinda makes me feel like that could deserve it's own mid-turn vote.


As a Journeygal Mathilde did stuff like infiltrating single barons. Infiltrating an entire Elector from scratch would have been a multi-turn project back then.
I'm not proposing for Eike to personally infiltrate the cabinet of the Al-Ulric, just to find out what's happening politically, which could be accomplished by a perfectly mundane spy. In fact, if we are considering sending the Hochlander to do this we might as well send Eike since she's about as magically capable and has better Intrigue then we started the quest with. We can do something similar with Nordland, she just needs to spend some time as a courtier or something. Nothing invasive is needed.
 
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I'm surprised at how big the push is to get the Orbs done this turn, without the safety of the Room of Utter Neutrality.

The liminal realms exploration got a lot of discussion on whether to do it outside and how safe/unsafe it would be, but prior to the first plans dropping I don't think the Orb construction was mentioned as a thing for this turn at all.
I don't think that there is the biggest push to do the orbs. Most of the plans are doing liminal realm instead, but I do agree that there is more interest than expected.
 
No, there doesn't seem to be any link between Hoeth and swords in the myths the Eonir have, nor does there seem to be any tradition of 'Swordmasters' among the Eonir worshippers of Him.

Huh. That suggests that the White Tower either embraced swording after the Eonir split from Ulthuan, or that the tradition does not come from Hoeth at all.

Which is odd, because by all accounts Verena has had Her sword since the Coming of Chaos.
 
@Boney How deliberate was your decision to have us specify the apparition already? The discussion so far kinda makes me feel like that could deserve it's own mid-turn vote.

Subvotes like that only work if there's a significant number of people who would be happy with any of the options. When most people have strong opinions about which one they want, then having a subvote can too easily lead to a result where only a minority of people are happy with what ends up winning.

Arbitrary numbers for demonstration purposes:
Plan Apparition Subvote wins with 50% of the vote
Subvote has 40% of the pro-Apparition voters vote for Apparition A, 30% for B, 30% for C.

Apparition A wins, and we have the quest going down a path that only 20% of people want.
 
I would like to wait until AV is done before going on the elfcation. I don't know the exact risks, but there is a nonzero chance of death during it, and I'd really like to drop the Morbs and AV book while Mathilde is still alive, instead of someone else finishing the research posthumously. It's probably a silly concern, but my recent imagination has been full of fights with Malekith...
 
I'm surprised at how big the push is to get the Orbs done this turn, without the safety of the Room of Utter Neutrality.

The liminal realms exploration got a lot of discussion on whether to do it outside and how safe/unsafe it would be, but prior to the first plans dropping I don't think the Orb construction was mentioned as a thing for this turn at all.
nitpick: The Orbs want the Room of Calamity, which is offline, not the Room of Utter Neutrality. Overall though I am also surprised by how much it's being mentioned.

I am also surprised by the number of proposals for infiltrating Nordland. That is not what I predicted 10 hours ago:
However I don't see a lot of urgency from the thread to investigate this, considering the showing of the Nordland vote in the last social vote (48 votes to fifth place's 82 and first place's 96).
The social vote seems like an excellent first step here.

However I will reiterate my overall thoughts on that action:
I would rather try to insert agents into the Cult of Ulric or even specifically the Cult of Ulric in Nordland, rather than just agents in Middenland or Nordland. I have discussed this some previously here. My reasoning is that now that it is clear that Nordland is pursuing it's vengeance on Middenland and the Cult of Ulric by getting the Cult outside Middenland to start trouble, I am not interested in the general rumor mill in Nordland or Middenland, just what is happening in the Cult. Additionally we don't have much presence in either province to use as the basis for a broad network, so we should focus on developing fewer but more useful sources in the areas we actually care about.

If we do want to use the EIC to investigate the Cult next turn, these are the actions I would encourage:
-[ ] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Cult of Ulric)
-[ ] Eike Actions: EIC infiltration
-[ ] Eike Study: Infiltration/Tradecraft with the Hochlander
The idea being that this way it is the Hochlander training Eike on how he does things so that she is useful, then having her participate in the infiltration of the Cult for practical experience and actually contributing to the action.
Note that I use the phrase "insert agents into the Cult of Ulric" because that is the phrasing of the action. Here is what I would actually want from that action:
Nordland is using discontent in the Cult of Ulric as a political weapon to split the Cult as revenge for what happened with Laurenlorn. All I am suggesting is to have the Hochlander and Eike befriend some members of the Cult of Ulric on both sides so that they can get an inside perspective on what is happening. There does not need to be bribery involved. If they just hire people who are friends with Priests of Ulric in both the Middenland and Nordland factions to relay their friends concerns so that those in power can intervene before everything spins out of control, that is not some nefarious plot that is going to get everyone involved burned at the stake, that is what the Grey Order does all over the empire every day. We could accomplish something similar ourselves if we just took the Middenland and Nordland social actions and then kept in touch with the people we meet as part of that.

But even more than investigating the Schism in the Cult of Ulric with the EIC I would rather do RoW bridge, and then take the Nordland and Middenland Social Vote actions.
 
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How deliberate was your decision to have us specify the apparition already? The discussion so far kinda makes me feel like that could deserve it's own mid-turn vote.
Halfway into the moratorium, and the rough plan mockups break down as:

Neither
[ ] Draft Plan: Double EIC, Double AV
[ ] Stars and Stones
[ ] Plan: Drop Orbs and then peace out to Elfland

Both/Either
[ ] Plan Redshirt
[ ] Plan Little Bit of Everything (Both)

Rider Only
[ ] Plan Temp (Rider in Red)
[ ] Father plan proposal (Rider in Red)
[ ] Plan Clearing the Backlog (Rider in Red)
[ ] Plan Bring several good pairs of running shoes (Rider in Red)

Darkness Only
[ ] Plan Saint Jude (Whispering Darkness)

So 30% don't want Apparitions this turn at all. Half are split over which they want to the exclusion of the other, and 20% already offer both options and don't need a subvote. I think if every plan wanted Apparitions and there was just a split over which one, a subvote would be good. There's a substantial number who don't want to play with pokemon at all, though, and others who just don't want to do it this turn and go hunt Druchii instead.
 
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Just to add to the rider discussion. There is no reason why we couldn't also give the rider a confusing or terrifying aura. It be as much effort as doing it to the whispering darkness (who would be better suited I will admit) as the AP would still need to be spend.
And the terrifying aura works pretty well with a dark knight riding you down. So I don't see a problem there beyond "it's another ap" and that's true for both.
 
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