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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Doomed Wombat said:
What I find interesting is Teclis not mentioning any of this, especially in comparison to Araby who were taught magic by the elves as well as I understand. Part of it was likely practical, see Mathilde's whole thing on battle magic and araby is a lot further south, but I wonder if it was also to a degree ideological.

But now I am speculating as well, because we've no idea if Djini and the like are connected to elementals.
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Boney said:
Teclis' teachings were pared down to the bone. He had plans to teach a fuller understanding when he got back from Ulthuan.

Araby weren't taught by Elves, they seized that knowledge by force when they were expelling the Elves from Araby.
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On the one hand this fits Telcis' good guy rep. On the other I had a funny vision of Telcis realising the implications for dwarf relations and panicking. So.....

Inside Telcis' head:

Telcis, planning his syllabus.
"Ok, war over, battle won. Time to design eight different lesson plans. Let's see, we've got basic wind theory, the spread of petty and lesser magics, how to dispel and counter spell, enchantment, earthbound magic and the basics of resonant material.... OH SHIT DWARVES.

Ok, ok. Yes, every Elven High Mage and Greater Magic scholar spent two thousand years carefully pretending they didn't know at least the basic idea Dwarven runesmiths were tapping into.* Yes this 'Empire' is right next to the dwarves and has been closely allied with them for over a millenia but its fine. It's fiiinnne. I'm sure it's fine. Volans and my students can be trusted to deal with this in a mature and sensib---"

Telcis' attention is drawn to the window by a horrifying scream. Outside, a young journeyman screams as their form twists horribly, an attempt to impress a potential romantic partner by proving they could cast battle magic going horribly wrong.

"Ah. Right. Shit. Ok. Ok. This clearly needs some thought. Right. Stick it on the backburner for now, give a very bare basic primer on background magic as a stopgap and give it a really good think for when I can sit down. I'll get to it later."

Narrator: "Telcis did not in fact, get to it later."


*Were the Elves of the White tower not quite so sophisticated, then 'THANKS CALEDOR II, REALLY MADE THOSE TWO THOUSAND YEARS WORTH IT' might have passed the lips of every graduating High Mage and Magical Loremaster of the Tower. Of course, the Elves of the White tower were extremely sophisticated and had much more evolved forms of sarcasm at their disposal.
 
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picklepikkl said:
The Lesser Magic version of our MAP has an effect that differs based on the Wind its caster uses. Therefore, it's not Earthbound magic, it's just Winds in sufficiently low quantities that they haven't started to assert their "personalities" very strongly.
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picklepikkl said:
Earthbound Magic is Winds that have diffused so much that they completely lose their character. Petty and Lesser Magics are done with Winds that are present in sufficiently small quantities that they don't have much character, but we know for a fact that they still have some character because of how MMAPP works. So while I think it's plausible that Elementalists might be able to pull off Petty and Lesser Magics (for example, I'm sure they have light spells equivalent to Glowing Light or Marsh Lights, I don't think it's by any means guaranteed. Additionally, the spellbook threadmark says this:
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Some Petty Magics seem to be low enough level that they count as Earthbound magic instead of very basic Wind spells. Otherwise when our Marsh Light was boosted by absorbing Hysh from Cython it should have created Dhar due to mixing Hysh and Ulgu. Since that didn't happen that implies that the amount of Ulgu in the spell was low enough to count as Earthbound magic and not interfere with Cython's Hysh.
Boney said:
The Light Magic coils cautiously around the Marsh Light bobbing at the ceiling, the glow of it increasing several-fold as the spell too basic to have a Wind affinity absorbs the radiating energies and becomes transformed by it.
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Andres said:
Do battle magic spells have ingredients?
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I think the first edition of the RPG had Battle Magic, and most spells had ingredients for them. Nevermind, I just checked. Actual Battle Magic of the eight colors in 1e doesn't have ingredients. 2e, while still having ingredients, didn't include any Battle Magic spells, deeming them outside the game's scope. I don't know about 3e. And 4e does include Battle Magic spells iirc but no ingredients for any spells at all.

At any rate, Boney has said ingredients here are something of a crutch. I imagine BM spells probably don't have ingredients.

Alratan said:
If it can suck all the Dhar out of the headwaters of the Great Mortis River and cleanse it, perhaps.
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This is planning out a chicken farm before getting a few working eggs, but if we clear the Dhar from Nehekhara, then afterward Nehekhara would still have the general problem of too many Winds and earthbound magic. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to need to make one type of waystone for Nehekhara, then later tear them down and put up a second type.
 
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Parabola said:
This is planning out a chicken farm before getting a few working eggs, but if we clear the Dhar from Nehekhara, then afterward Nehekhara would still have the general problem of too many Winds and earthbound magic. It wouldn't be an ideal solution to need to make one type of waystone for Nehekhara, then later tear them down and put up a second type.
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Nehekhara is a lot closer to the equator so may not have that many Winds. That's apparently why the Magicians of Araby bind jinn, because there aren't enough of the Winds to make that form of magic useful.
 
Parabola said:
but if we clear the Dhar from Nehekhara, then afterward Nehekhara would still have the general problem of too many Winds and earthbound magic.
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I mean, maybe not. It's practically equatorial.

How many Waystones does Araby need to get by? Is the use of Waystones or equivalent in historical Nehekhara because they need to flush the magic away, or because they need to gather the magic up to have enough of it to do anything with?
 
[ ] Plan foundations for Foundations
-[ ] Coin : PROTECTOR
-[ ] Tributary: International (Kislev)
-[ ] Tributary: International (Bretonnia)
-[ ] [ ] [ ] Travel to Nagarythe at the invitation of Ambassador Daroir, and join their eternal war against Naggarothi invaders for three months.
-[ ] EIC: Attempt to establish a trade route with the Eonir. (Ore)
-[ ] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Nuln Library. (Minor colleges)
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (FADED) - Collaboration with Egrimm as main author
-[ ] Eike Actions: Ore trade route and Elfcation
-[ ] Eike Study: Sounds and Shadowsteed

So here is my plan pitch for next turn.

I don't know if the Protector would apply to tributaries, but I feel like there is a chance it might. After all, the positive effects of tributaries is pretty straightforward and doesn't really need to be explained. But even if it doesn't work, I just like the symbolic of having it on while providing the tools for Kislev and Bretonnia to improve the lives of their populace (particularily Bretonnia). At the very least, I'd consider it as a dedication to this very aspect of Ranald.

But even disregarding the Protector, I feel like giving the tributaries to both major nations has the potential to help us get more support from those countries which would be nice to do before embarking on the developpement of Waystone Foundations. My hopes would be improved support for the Ice Witches and some support from Bretonnia.

As for the Elfcation, the main thing I wanted to wait for before embarking on it was the Sword Mastery. Of course, we could dither and wait more, but there is always another goalpost and I think we are ready enough by now. I'd also like to get some contact with the Asur before trying to develop Foundations since their help would probably be invaluable and the elfcation is a good way to perhaps get contacts without alarming them.

On a more Meta level, a mini adventure has good chances of netting us a new trait that could be useful for the Foundations and the Waystone Project in general.

As for setting the ore trade route before doing the magical road, I'd like to get the EIC and Eike more involved in developping the sea route before developping an alternative since I think both are complementary and I don't want to throw away Eike's good work so soon. Plus, there is the bonus of potentially improving trade between Laurelorn and Nordland, Ostland and Kislev (perhaps even Karag Vlag for the Ores) before we go for the magic road. It would also allow us to entrench the EIC in those regions for bonus espionnage benefits. Perhaps the sea route and magic route could even benefit different Great Houses for another political benefit.

I know this plan is pretty different from the apparent consensuses (no apparitions, liminal spaces, etc.) but I thought I'd give it a shot since I hunger for adventure. I'd love thoughts, encouragement and rebuttals of course as engagement is always motivating.
 
Alratan said:
Nehekhara is a lot closer to the equator so may not have that many Winds. That's apparently why the Magicians of Araby bind jinn, because there aren't enough of the Winds to make that form of magic useful.
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Mopman43 said:
I mean, maybe not. It's practically equatorial.

How many Waystones does Araby need to get by? Is the use of Waystones or equivalent in historical Nehekhara because they need to flush the magic away, or because they need to gather the magic up to have enough of it to do anything with?
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I'm given to understand that Hysh at least gets closer to the equator than any other Wind, but fair point. Dhar is Nehekhara's biggest problem by far.

Not that I think we'd need the Elementalists for this, or that they'd agree to going so far, but y'know, whatever.
 
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Parabola said:
And 4e does include Battle Magic spells iirc but no ingredients for any spells at all.
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4e has ingredients for all non-petty spells, but it doesn't list a specific ingredient for each spell. It instead says what ingredients each lore of magic generally uses, then sets the price for a spell's ingredient based on how difficult it is. If a spell has a CN of 14, its ingredient costs 14 shillings. (14 pence for Lore of Witchcraft.)
 
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Andres said:
4e has ingredients for all non-petty spells, but it doesn't list a specific ingredient for each spell. It instead says what ingredients each lore of magic generally uses, then sets the price for a spell's ingredients based on how difficult it is. If a spell has a CN of 14, its ingredient costs 14 shillings. (14 pence for Lore of Witchcraft.)
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Well, that shows how little I know about 4e, I guess.
 
Mopman43 said:
(I'm honestly not sure if the Southlands includes Araby and Nehekhara, or if it's specifically the land south of those two)
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I just ran into proof- page 72 of 6th edition Lizardmen starts with this sentence:
Far to the south of the Old World, beyond the mysterious realm of Araby and the Land of the Dead, lies the continent known as the Southlands.
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[X] Plan Redshirt v1

NexusEye said:
Some Petty Magics seem to be low enough level that they count as Earthbound magic instead of very basic Wind spells. Otherwise when our Marsh Light was boosted by absorbing Hysh from Cython it should have created Dhar due to mixing Hysh and Ulgu. Since that didn't happen that implies that the amount of Ulgu in the spell was low enough to count as Earthbound magic and not interfere with Cython's Hysh.
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Yup.
Tbh at this point we have determined its probably not a hard cut off but rather a gradient more details would take actual AP and experiment time rather than the "hmm, neat" effects showing up in battle
 
I have been working on some potential plans for next turn. As part of that I have been considering what actions we could do with Egrimm. While I am planning to make a version of a plan that includes Windherding, I have been exploring other options. One of those options that has been particularly interesting is the Mordheim Nexus action. I know Mordheim is not a safe location, but it was purged 13 years ago, and I think it might be safe enough if we went with Johann and Egrimm. It also seems like it could be an interesting mini adventure.

I wanted to check if it sounds interesting to the rest of the thread, and get some estimates on the potential risks and what we could do to mitigate them. I am also wondering if anyone has an estimate on what parts of the Waystone Network Mordheim used to be fed by, and any other things we might find or learn while there.

My estimate is that with Mathilde, Johann, and Egrimm we would have a small team that could scout and evade most threats, and we would have plenty of firepower to confront anything that we couldn't avoid. We also have the Gyrocopter and Shadowsteed, so we have good ways to get in and out quickly. I would appreciate help from Warhammer Loremasters on estimating the threats we would be facing, and if my expectations are correct.
 
LawsOfRobotics said:
I have been working on some potential plans for next turn. As part of that I have been considering what actions we could do with Egrimm. While I am planning to make a version of a plan that includes Windherding, I have been exploring other options. One of those options that has been particularly interesting is the Mordheim Nexus action. I know Mordheim is not a safe location, but it was purged 13 years ago, and I think it might be safe enough if we went with Johann and Egrimm. It also seems like it could be an interesting mini adventure.

I wanted to check if it sounds interesting to the rest of the thread, and get some estimates on the potential risks and what we could do to mitigate them. I am also wondering if anyone has an estimate on what parts of the Waystone Network Mordheim used to be fed by, and any other things we might find or learn while there.

My estimate is that with Mathilde, Johann, and Egrimm we would have a small team that could scout and evade most threats, and we would have plenty of firepower to confront anything that we couldn't avoid. We also have the Gyrocopter and Shadowsteed, so we have good ways to get in and out quickly. I would appreciate help from Warhammer Loremasters on estimating the threats we would be facing, and if my expectations are correct.
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On the one hand, I want to visit Mordheim eventually, and it probably connected to not just the Gross Selon nexus but also Eicheschatten's. Possibly, if some people's speculations are right, to Karak Kadrin as well.

On the other hand, it doesn't matter if it's been 13 years. Boney has said Mathilde wouldn't consider it safe if it'd been purged yesterday. I'd really rather leave it to a turn with The Gambler on it.
 
Parabola said:
On the other hand, it doesn't matter if it's been 13 years. Boney has said Mathilde wouldn't consider it safe if it'd been purged yesterday. I'd really rather leave it to a turn with The Gambler on it.
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I don't think the Gambler would likely make a huge difference; Boney has said before that the Gambler isn't a good fit for "tactical"-scale things and that Ranald has an easier time putting his thumb on the scale in a useful way with more long-term actions.
Boney said:
The Gambler doesn't work so well for second-to-second events, but it could have an influence on the strategic level.
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We put the Gambler on bookmining, if you recall, and it didn't affect any of the visible rolls in any of our combats; it undoubtedly influenced background events somewhat, but we don't know if Ranald made our trip safer or made it more lucrative or made our allies more available or what. It's not a great instrument for this sort of thing, is my point -- affecting two rolls is a much bigger deal when you're only making a few rolls than when you're making dozens. So as far as I'm concerned, the presence or absence of the Gambler is moot.

Mordheim is never going to be "safe", but it might be safe enough. Two Battle-Magic capable wizards for backup muscle while Mathilde serves as scout to avoid as much enemy contact as possible seems doable, or at the very least if we can't accomplish the goal we should be able to get out. I don't want to just dismiss it, not when Boney had this to say about what we might get out of the various Nexus investigation actions:
Boney said:
Tributaries move energy to Waystones. Waystone move energy to Nexuses. Nexuses move energy to Ulthuan. The ones that Mathilde are ones where there's something going on with them that suggests there's more to learn from those ones specifically.

Marienburg (Almshoven and Fort Solace) - Ulthuan recently erected one to replace the other, which was destroyed during the Great War Against Chaos.
Forest of Shadows (Brass Keep, Blood Fane, Tower of Melkhior) - the ancient sites of the Forest of Shadows Hedgewise, all of which are now being used by enemies of the Empire.
Reikland (Axe Bite Pass and Grey Lady Pass) - Hatalath mentioned 'Athel Yenlui' as being in Reikland, which suggests a path from east to west that doesn't rely on Marienburg, but if energy was running through them Mathilde would know about it from now because they'd be connected to Altdorf.
Mordheim - Mordheim was recently purged by Ostermark, so there may be an opportunity to search for the Waystone there was a monolith for at the Ostermark nexus.
Los Cabos - The point where energy leaves the continent to travel to Ulthuan, and seems to be a single point of failure for the entire continent. It would be good to know how watched over and defended it is by both the locals and Ulthuan.
Bugman's Brewery - another alternate east-to-west route and one that may be currently functioning, and Mathilde suspects the legendary quality of Bugman's might be thanks to being able to draw on the Waystones in some way.
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If it turns out the nexus, or part of the infrastructure connected to it, is at all salvageable, that would be a big deal!
 
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I think if we're going to check on whether Mordheim needs re-purging we should probably get an Amethyst wizard to come along, just in case.
 
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