Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Rafin]

@Boney I have a few questions about the context we are meeting Sofia in.

First of all, where are we meeting her? Are we already in K8P? Is Pan there? Is Sofia being "presented" to us or are we (deliberately?) running into her? Or is our moment approach part of the vote the way our first words are?

Second, how much time have Sofia and Pan already spent together? A strictly mechanistic reading of the timeline supposes that roughly half a year has passed, since that's how long a turn is. But also social actions are supposed to be considered interwoven into the turn and deliberately not bound to a specific moment in it if it's not necessary for them to be.
In this case however it does matter a bit. Panoramia is our girlfriend who we spend lots pf off screen time with during our stays home in K8P. So maybe we are meeting her "at the beginning of the turn" when Pan freshly brought her to K8P and has herself not had any chance to form a connection or even show her around, which makes this a natural first introduction to the local (now unofficial) head Wizard who is also personally dear to Master Panoramia. Or this is much later, due to one of a number of reasons ranging from we haven't actually spend time in K8P for several months when Pan brought her here (though Branarhune refinement happened there) to Panoramia having actively avoided having us meet before now and Mathilde having let her do that. Or something in between I guess.
In my opinion the timing is very relevant to our approach. If Sofia just arrived in K8P then we can both act more casually because we meet and greet every K8P Wizard (in training), but also have to be mindful not to color her relationship with her own Master too much before it has even begun to form. If its later then this automatically becomes more ominous for Sofia, but it opens up just talking about Panoramia and K8P.

Third, is there any indication whatsoever what Panoramia hopes to happen or not happen in this conversation? Anything serious would step on her toes as a Master. But maybe she wants that, to a point. While I don't expect an answer that includes concrete goals, because that would ruin the point of the vote, I guess this goes back to the context of the meeting. Budding in to surreptitiously interrogate Pan's Apprentice during a friendly introduction or a random meeting would be terribly rude and kind of mean towards our girlfriend. And spilling our hearts out or improvising a therapy session would just be weird. But if this is more along the lines of a preemptive version of what we did for Journeyman Barbitus and Panoramia has expressed trust in us on this matter then the whole situation is a bit different.

Maybe all of this is very deliberately vague in this update, because it all depends on what we vote to do. But I think that in that case it maybe should be a bit clearer that we are not only voting on the words we say, but also on the context of the meeting, down to the when and where.
Or alternatively you specifically don't want us to do that and instead just give you cues and ideas without restricting the scene setting. In which case please tell busybodies like me that our write-in votes should be short and open-ended as opposed to context-laden plans of attack.

There are parallels in that to Sienna's fear of us and crucially that fear proved unfounded.

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Sienna is her sister.

It's too soon for that kind of thing to be taken in a charitable light though unfortunately.

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So let's not go that far. Introducing him as an important character in our life now allows such an approach to feel more natural later on.

 

[The Phoenixian]

I wonder if a runesmith could set up a glass enclosure that blocked the transmission of the Winds, but Mathilde could still see through?

Actually, would that block Mathilde's Windsight? Even if it did, that's an interesting enough result to be a paper all of its own.

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It feels like there's a lot of unknown variables there, I think. Rather than blocking the winds, such a glass might need to also block the influence of Morrsleib. (Since if Morrsleib is the influence that turns AV directly to Dhar you could need to block any vector capable of transmitting something like that too, to avoid contamination.)

We know that "mint condition spacetime, entirely disconnected from reality" is a sufficient barrier at the higher bound, but there's a lot of room between that level of disconnect and our speculated lowers bound for avoiding the primordial winds turning into anything other than more spacetime. (or at least, turning into something that isn't the winds we've seen so far)

Which could be an AP on it's own, really. Finding all the halfway states between the most isolated from external influence we've seen an AV explosion so far and the creation of a liminal realm. All while Mathilde can't actually watch directly and has to figure out ways to measure what's going on indirectly.

 

[Projectile]

I wonder if a runesmith could set up a glass enclosure that blocked the transmission of the Winds, but Mathilde could still see through?

Actually, would that block Mathilde's Windsight? Even if it did, that's an interesting enough result to be a paper all of its own.

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The runesmith wouldn't be necessary. Stone is an excellent* insulator of magic, and we can see through that. Ish. Hm.

*If you get enough of it.

Stone is an excellent insulator of magic, and normally trying to see magic through this much stone would be a fool's errand, no matter how keen their magical senses.

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Of course you cannot see the elemental resonance within Earthbound magic - just by being in the same room as it, you have reverted it to its original nature. No experiment performed by a College Wizard, or performed within a College laboratory, will ever see anything but the neutral state of Earthbound magic. Come to think of it, anywhere in Altdorf would be subject to the same disruption, as for almost two centuries it has been constantly awash with the Wind of the current Supreme Patriarch. It is something like if you concluded that snow was a myth because you performed all your studies of it in the summer.

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Mathilde can see magic from much farther away than she can (otherwise) interact with it (we would need a much smaller mountain tbf), so it doesn't seem like the wet-fish problem should be nearly as much of an issue as she's presenting it. Obviously, most elemental spells aren't remotely the scope of Vlag, but still. And even though Windsight probably maybe involves moving your wind-infused soul close to the magic, Elemental spell fragility to the Winds seems unlikely to be to that degree, or Wind Wizards wouldn't have to exert even minor effort to pop them.

But no, Mathilde seems to be saying it is like that, that Elementalists can't even cast in Altdorf. But the Ulthuani Elves seem to manage just fine (in my imagination, of course, I haven't been to Ulthuan yet).

There's gotta be something we're/I'm still missing.

 

[Valmond]

I'm pretty sure than any enclosure that can block winds, would also block our ability to sense winds.
It's like asking something that blocks light and then trying to see through it.
Now, the dawi CCTV we saw might be an option, but we don't know it exists in character, and i think nobody knows how to make them.

 

[Rafin]

After that wall of text where I am asking for all that extra info, I think it would be prudent what I am actually hoping for.

My preference would be that Mathilde is meeting Sofia as she's being introduced to K8P, as part of the place and as part of Panoramia's life. Then the first conversation can be a mix of shared anecdotes and light probing in the Grey Wizard fashion, with an optional heartfelt story about our hat in there somewhere, followed by a promise of being helpful and, should Panoramia not want to do so herself, an introduction to the KAU, the We, the Ducklings and Eike and a general reassurance that she can come to us for books and other forms of help.

 

[LancyIain]

Could we do some sort of training with Eike that exploits her interest in naval tactics? Perhaps somehow intriguing her way into access to the fleet in Nordland? That might be enjoyable for her, and a way that Mathilde can get more information on Nordland at the same time, perhaps?

 

[Projectile]

But the Ulthuani Elves seem to manage just fine (in my imagination, of course, I haven't been to Ulthuan yet).

There's gotta be something we're/I'm still missing.

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Nope, I found the missing link. It's dhar again. I bet the elves can use it as a sponge so the Winds never touch the Earthbound magic.

Every time there's a cool magic mystery... It's always fucking dddddhhhaaaAAAAARRRRRR! *shakes fist*

 

[Deathbybunnies]

It feels like there's a lot of unknown variables there, I think. Rather than blocking the winds, such a glass might need to also block the influence of Morrsleib. (Since if Morrsleib is the influence that turns AV directly to Dhar you could need to block any vector capable of transmitting something like that too, to avoid contamination.)

We know that "mint condition spacetime, entirely disconnected from reality" is a sufficient barrier at the higher bound, but there's a lot of room between that level of disconnect and our speculated lowers bound for avoiding the primordial winds turning into anything other than more spacetime. (or at least, turning into something that isn't the winds we've seen so far)

Which could be an AP on it's own, really. Finding all the halfway states between the most isolated from external influence we've seen an AV explosion so far and the creation of a liminal realm. All while Mathilde can't actually watch directly and has to figure out ways to measure what's going on indirectly.

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We can avoid Morrslieb by not doing the experiment outside at night? It clearly isn't an issue otherwise, or the Elementalists wouldn't be able to achieve anything.

The runesmith wouldn't be necessary. Stone is an excellent* insulator of magic, and we can see through that. Ish. Hm.

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That's not exactly conducive to a close study of what's happening, though.

But no, Mathilde seems to be saying it is like that, that Elementalists can't even cast in Altdorf. But the Ulthuani Elves seem to manage just fine (in my imagination, of course, I haven't been to Ulthuan yet).

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The update explains the elves can do it because their high magic cardinality doesn't resonate with individual Winds the way Collegiate magic does.

I'm pretty sure than any enclosure that can block winds, would also block our ability to sense winds.
It's like asking something that blocks light and then trying to see through it.
Now, the dawi CCTV we saw might be an option, but we don't know it exists in character, and i think nobody knows how to make them.

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I don't think we know that - we have no idea if we sense magic through more magic directly, or something else magic gives off - but like I said, if that's the case that'd make for a good paper of its own.

 

[einargs]

I like the idea of telling Sophia the story of how we got our hat.

As a side note, when Mathilde brought Thorek to Laurelorn she wondered if him being so political would be a downside. I think his effort to tie in the isolationist houses and pull off this gambit is proof that him being political is a massive boon. He's basically investing a bunch of free AP and influence into securing connections with Laurelorn.

The very last thing anyone wants to do is figure out runecraft, the Guild/Clan/Cult of Thungi would take it very badly. On the other side of things though, helping Kragg figure out how to do runecraft with elementals is fine.

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No, we definitely want to figure out runecraft. We just can't say anything about it if we do, but we're very used to that. In general we have a tendency to reach for forbidden knowledge we can't share; the only time we didn't that I remember was with divine AV, and a lot of that was logistics and risk. Getting insight into how runecraft works is definitely a goal of Mathilde; she's taken every chance she's gotten to watch Kragg work. Of course that normally just leaves her with more questions, but maybe this can help narrow things down.

Though we're never going to fully figure out Runecraft without being a dwarf and spending centuries learning about it.

I wonder if a runesmith could set up a glass enclosure that blocked the transmission of the Winds, but Mathilde could still see through?

Actually, would that block Mathilde's Windsight? Even if it did, that's an interesting enough result to be a paper all of its own.

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I think there's a good paper in both writing up our insight into why college wizards have never been able to observe the phenomenon and then trying a bunch of different methods to do so. Off the top of my head I can think of three methods, removing all environmental winds and draining ourselves as much as possible, runecraft for observation/isolation, and AV. We've also seen that AV can preserve a divine fingerprint, so mechanically exposing it to earthbound magic might similarly preserve that fingerprint.

While we don't want to go asking dwarves if earthbound magic is how runecraft works, we might be able to ask them for help investigating it. Paying in AV would help. Alternatively, if we enchant or purchase a seviroscope we could buy cooperation that way. Then again, if we have to go to someone I'd rather it be Thorek or another more radical runesmith that we've cooperated with. Thorek works well because we're working together right now.

Also we can go around and look for relevant information in the Laurelorn library and talk to all of the many different magical traditions we're working with. Something like this, that doesn't really directly impinge on tradition secrets and is more about how the world works, might be something they're willing to talk about. Even if they aren't, their reactions might be revealing.

 

[Chopak]

Earthbound magic drawn from one of the four elements retains a resonance with that element, so it is more easily able to manipulate it. Earthbound magic drawn from water resonates with water, and thus can manipulate it more easily.

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So it's kind of positive feedback loop? Element resonates with earthbound magic thus it's easier to draw it, the magic resonates with element, so it's easier to control it, the controled element resonates with magic so it's easier to draw more magic, more magic is even more element controlled easilly, which means more earthbound magic...

 

[Angelform]

And expansion??? Wow they uh must feel real secure in some boarders if they're gonna cut down the trees for it. Uh let's hope Nordland doesn't hear and raise a stink about it.

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The disagreement was/is a matter of ownership, not usage. The inhabitants of Laurelorn are not a bunch of spirit-bound semi-fey that object to anyone harming a tree because Nature! They are a sovereign nation that was understandably annoyed at another nation coming over the boarder to steal resources and destroy defensive infrastructure. Doubly so after the other nation had signed treaties specifically saying they would not do exactly that.

Nordland has no more justification for objecting to elves cutting down Laurelorn trees than a sheep rustler has justification to for objecting to a shepherd eating mutton.

 

[Projectile]

The update explains the elves can do it because their high magic cardinality doesn't resonate with individual Winds the way Collegiate magic does.

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I could admit that my reading comprehension was terrible, but instead I'm gonna say that I like my explanation better and the elves, few of whom are high mages, are probably being sus.

Seriously, thank you.

 

[VoiceOfTheRiders]

@Boney how long did you have that Elementalist explanation, or did you make it up this turn? Either way, it is a lovely explanation to reconcile the differences in the paradigms with reasonable explanations as to why they occurred.

 

[Boney]

@Boney I have a few questions about the context we are meeting Sofia in.

First of all, where are we meeting her? Are we already in K8P? Is Pan there? Is Sofia being "presented" to us or are we (deliberately?) running into her? Or is our moment approach part of the vote the way our first words are?

Second, how much time have Sofia and Pan already spent together? A strictly mechanistic reading of the timeline supposes that roughly half a year has passed, since that's how long a turn is. But also social actions are supposed to be considered interwoven into the turn and deliberately not bound to a specific moment in it if it's not necessary for them to be.
In this case however it does matter a bit. Panoramia is our girlfriend who we spend lots pf off screen time with during our stays home in K8P. So maybe we are meeting her "at the beginning of the turn" when Pan freshly brought her to K8P and has herself not had any chance to form a connection or even show her around, which makes this a natural first introduction to the local (now unofficial) head Wizard who is also personally dear to Master Panoramia. Or this is much later, due to one of a number of reasons ranging from we haven't actually spend time in K8P for several months when Pan brought her here (though Branarhune refinement happened there) to Panoramia having actively avoided having us meet before now and Mathilde having let her do that. Or something in between I guess.
In my opinion the timing is very relevant to our approach. If Sofia just arrived in K8P then we can both act more casually because we meet and greet every K8P Wizard (in training), but also have to be mindful not to color her relationship with her own Master too much before it has even begun to form. If its later then this automatically becomes more ominous for Sofia, but it opens up just talking about Panoramia and K8P.

Third, is there any indication whatsoever what Panoramia hopes to happen or not happen in this conversation? Anything serious would step on her toes as a Master. But maybe she wants that, to a point. While I don't expect an answer that includes concrete goals, because that would ruin the point of the vote, I guess this goes back to the context of the meeting. Budding in to surreptitiously interrogate Pan's Apprentice during a friendly introduction or a random meeting would be terribly rude and kind of mean towards our girlfriend. And spilling our hearts out or improvising a therapy session would just be weird. But if this is more along the lines of a preemptive version of what we did for Journeyman Barbitus and Panoramia has expressed trust in us on this matter then the whole situation is a bit different.

Maybe all of this is very deliberately vague in this update, because it all depends on what we vote to do. But I think that in that case it maybe should be a bit clearer that we are not only voting on the words we say, but also on the context of the meeting, down to the when and where.
Or alternatively you specifically don't want us to do that and instead just give you cues and ideas without restricting the scene setting. In which case please tell busybodies like me that our write-in votes should be short and open-ended as opposed to context-laden plans of attack.

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The circumstances being vague is to the thread's benefit, as I'll pick details that are at worst neutral for the response the thread decides upon. If the circumstances are spelled out exactly beforehand, I will feel absolutely no compunction against letting every unfortunate but forewarned conjunction spell ruin for the thread's carefully-laid plans.

@Boney how long did you have that Elementalist explanation, or did you make it up this turn? Either way, it is a lovely explanation to reconcile the differences in the paradigms with reasonable explanations as to why they occurred.

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I started working on the reasoning of it when the thread came upon the Metalsmith-boon-for-BŒK idea, by the time I sat down to write this update I had all the details sorted.

 

[The Phoenixian]

We can avoid Morrslieb by not doing the experiment outside at night? It clearly isn't an issue otherwise, or the Elementalists wouldn't be able to achieve anything.

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It's not Morrsleib itself that's the issue. More the transmission of... whatever it is that that carries the relevant meanings and associations. If you can have a glass pane you could look at the full and undimmed chaos moon through and be affected by it not a whit, odds are that pane would have a shot at blocking the transmission of anything else that carries any kind of associations.

EDIT: Which is basically a way to dance around the actual question of "Okay, so what, actually is the transmission medium here? Is it the winds of magic themselves, or something else?"

 

[Humbaba]

Good update, though I'm slightly sad Mathilde didn't make the logical leap to Dwarf rune smithing. Hopefully we can do a paper on this next turn. Filling in a significant hole in Telcesian theory should be worth a good amount of CF.

On Sophia I have tweeted ideas.

Firstly, asking her about how her windsight manifests, and talking about the different manifestations we've seen. If Mathilde has any reputation in the wider colleges that Sophia might be aware of it would involve her wide variety of research topics.

The other is telling her a truth that she might want to hear. Having Mathilde tell her (quite truthfully) that despite being a Lady Magister and working for the colleges, Mathilde has never been forced to put down a rogue member of the colleges, and that she has no intention of having Sophia break that streak. It might help calm her down without entirely removing the threat to f absolutely needed.

I might actually advocate doing both.

 

[SpaceSloth]

What about giving Sophia a tour of the library, and introducing her to the We.

Back in the day the We stood in our way of reconquering one of the holds, instead of taking the easy path and killing it Mathilde did her best to integrate it to society.

That seems like pretty good proof to Sophia that Mathilde will go out of her way to work with people that most would give up on.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

Since the elementalists are currently on my mind

Is the list of currently existent magical traditions* in the empire (or ex-empire territories)
1) The Colleges.
2) The Elementalist.
3) Baron Henryk's.
4) the Hedgewise.

*the not Dhar using ones obviously. Necromancy is a tradition, but its a bad one.

I know there are other hedge practitioners, but to my understanding, they're not necessarily part of a larger tradition.

In that case do we know of any traditions that were killed off before Teclis turned up? Like not the Druids or alchemists that he incorporated into the colleges, but like ones that went extinct before that.

Furthermore how do spirits fit into the elementalist thing, or do they not? I'm curious what Baba might say.

And going back to magical traditions, the old world more broadly has these ones of note

1) Brettonian Damsels (Therugy)
2) Kislevite Ice Witches (therugy)
3) Also Kislevite spirit stuff.
4) College arcane magic.
5) Araby...whatever they are doing, tentatively arcane magic.
6) Baron Henryk's lot.

But I recall from the Waaargh and peace lectures there was a Tilian mercenary wizard. Where do they come from? I can't find Tillia and Estallia having any magical schools.

 

[picklepikkl]

Fun metaphysics on the Elementalism. I have no desire to write a paper that is just "Hey I read these books from another magical tradition and I figured some stuff out" -- as Boney said, that's kind of icky -- but now we can be smug and mysterious if the topic ever comes up in our presence, which is what really matters.

The House Filuan thing is exciting for Laurelorn's internal politics. I hope we have a spare action sometime soon to squeeze in getting 2/2 Advanced Eonir diplomacy, we could use it and Eike could use the additional practice. Congrats to the various people who correctly guessed that it was a wall expansion.

Sofia is a very sad situation, but as I said before, even if it's not ideal it is extremely in character for Mathilde to be charging in to this situation ASAP. Basic is better than complicated here, I think; "I'm your master's romantic partner and wanted to meet you, this is my familiar, here is my library which Panoramia is permitted to give you access to, here are some tips for getting along with dwarfs." That sort of thing.

 

[Boney]

Good update, though I'm slightly sad Mathilde didn't make the logical leap to Dwarf rune smithing. Hopefully we can do a paper on this next turn. Filling in a significant hole in Telcesian theory should be worth a good amount of CF.

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There aren't really any new implications from this that changes the possible intersection between Earthbound magic and Rune magic at the surface level, and at the deeper level of the conceptual resonances that might underpin the fundamental mechanics Runesmithing, those are secrets that Runesmiths are religiously obligated to kill to protect.

But I recall from the Waaargh and peace lectures there was a Tilian mercenary wizard. Where do they come from? I can't find Tillia and Estallia having any magical schools.

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Various rogue and banished Wizards that taught apprentices of their own, beyond the authority of the Colleges and under the protection of various City-States.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

though I'm slightly sad Mathilde didn't make the logical leap to Dwarf rune smithing.

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What logical leap?

However, runesmithing works I think given how touchy runesmiths are jumping to speculation strikes me as a bad idea. Give the books to Kragg and Thorek maybe there's some useful stuff to them there, but I'm doubtful.

Ninja'd

What I find interesting is Teclis not mentioning any of this, especially in comparison to Araby who were taught magic by the elves as well as I understand. Part of it was likely practical, see Mathilde's whole thing on battle magic and araby is a lot further south, but I wonder if it was also to a degree ideological.

But now I am speculating as well, because we've no idea if Djini and the like are connected to elementals.

Fun metaphysics on the Elementalism. I have no desire to write a paper that is just "Hey I read these books from another magical tradition and I figured some stuff out" -- as Boney said, that's kind of icky

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Yeah, if we can design some sort of experiment or do a comparison or what have you then write a paper, otherwise yeah...

Like I feel for the colleges being beholden to the Teclisian model is probably damaging over time and investigating a wide array of traditions is a must. Even if we can't do the elf thing of mastering all forms of magic, fact is we do need to know more about the entire system if we want to achieve mastery of one bit of it.

Various rogue and banished Wizards that taught apprentices of their own, beyond the authority of the Colleges and under the protection of various City-States.

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Ok so descendents of the colleges for the most part. Cheers.

mmm...gotta admit a bit surprised Verana and Mermedia don't have people investigating magic.

Edit: Ok that's not fair. That they haven't had success publically. No way of proving they aren't behind closed doors.

 

[NexusEye]

Fun metaphysics on the Elementalism. I have no desire to write a paper that is just "Hey I read these books from another magical tradition and I figured some stuff out" -- as Boney said, that's kind of icky -- but now we can be smug and mysterious if the topic ever comes up in our presence, which is what really matters.

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For me at least the goal of writing an Elementalism paper isn't to get credit for it, it's to repackage the insights we learned into a neat package that any Wizard can read and gain a deeper understanding of Elementalism. Even if the paper earned us zero College favor as long as it gives the Colleges new insight about the nature of magic and how it behaves I would still be in favor of writing it.

 

[Alratan]

Learning more about the manoeuvrings of the Great Houses makes the RoW causeway across the swamp even more of an enticing possibility for the integrationist faction, as it further increases the profits of that political stance, and does so in a way that may open up possibilities for Great Houses that are afraid of being frozen out of the profits.

The competition to exploit the opportunity makes it a lot more likely that at least one of them will jump on the idea as serving as intermediaries between foreign merchants and the Empire.

For me at least the goal of writing an Elementalism paper isn't to get credit for it, it's to repackage the insights we learned into a neat package that any Wizard can read and gain a deeper understanding of Elementalism. Even if the paper earned us zero College favor as long as it gives the Colleges new insight about the nature of magic and how it behaves I would still be in favor of writing it.

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We might want to see if we can get a bit more of an understanding of conceptual resonance based magic from the Hedgefolk and the Eonir first.

That seems like it has the potential to produce something more actionable.

 

[Doomed Wombat]

For me at least the goal of writing an Elementalism paper isn't to get credit for it, it's to repackage the insights we learned into a neat package that any Wizard can read and gain a deeper understanding of Elementalism. Even if the paper earned us zero College favor as long as it gives the Colleges new insight about the nature of magic and how it behaves I would still be in favor of writing it.

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I think there's something to be said for that if we do it at the same time as something that also investigates these things practically.

I'd say the best thing for that would be an investigation of say...river spirits and elementalism.

Like if spirits are a thing, how does that stuff connect up? Hell what even are spirits by the college's understanding? Genus Locii.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

If we did get some magic-impermeable glass and Windsight did work through it, it'd be useful for the Seviroscope too. You can't enchant a runed item, but if you slapped the runed glass on the front of the Seviroscope, you'd prevent the enchantment from affecting whatever it is you're looking at. Which might be useful to Kragg, if runesmithing really does involve Earthbound magic.

What I find interesting is Teclis not mentioning any of this, especially in comparison to Araby who were taught magic by the elves as well as I understand. Part of it was likely practical, see Mathilde's whole thing on battle magic and araby is a lot further south, but I wonder if it was also to a degree ideological.

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Teclis skipped a lot of things to get the Colleges ready for the Great War against Chaos, and most of it probably wasn't motivated by anything more than a lack of time.