So if everyone IC, the Colleges are not sure why it happens.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So if everyone IC, the Colleges are not sure why it happens.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm down with this plan as well, actually. Seems reasonable enough.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
While we could do this, bear in mind that it would be a bit of a bluff. Mathilde's only memory-altering spell is Mindhole, which affects the target's memories of the caster, specifically. It's not a surgical instrument; if she uses it then Sophia doesn't just lose memories of the topics we didn't want to discuss. She forgets Mathilde exists entirely and comes back to herself being interrogated by a stranger in Grey Magisterial robes and a witch-hunter hat.
More selective memory altering can be done, as evidenced by the information packets like the one on Skaven, but Mathilde herself isn't capable of that.
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
Huh, were doing a lot with Earthbound magic with the tributaries... the Elementalists may actually be not entirely useless for the project.
Of course I doubt it would be anything vital or all impressive. Interesting though.
Not worth going out of our way to bring them in, but still.
Of course I doubt it would be anything vital or all impressive. Interesting though.
Not worth going out of our way to bring them in, but still.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah definitely prefer something like this. Gotta do something to disarm the inherent fear of these circumstances. Many reasons why Mathilde wouldn't want to harm her in the slightest, both pragmatic and personal, she just doesn't know any of them yet and can't feel remotely secure.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
- Pronouns
- She/Her
lockingbane
If you're crazy and you know it clap your hands!
- Location
- Waxahachie tx
..... Is it bad I want us to go full on mysterious grey and possibly dwarf and give her a nod with a one word answer "Acceptable if barely".
I honestly would find it hilarious if such an answer and assessment is met with approval by the dwarfs who see us "acting a bit more proper"
I honestly would find it hilarious if such an answer and assessment is met with approval by the dwarfs who see us "acting a bit more proper"
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Nah, it falls apart in the face of the winds, and falls apart after a few minutes anyway. It's hard to imagine a paradigm less suited to making permanent structures for redirecting the Winds.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
While it's a bit saddening that seeing the elemental resonance of Earthbound magic is likely going to be the one aspect in which Mathilde's Windsight will likely never get better on or be able to see at all without first making a Seviroscope and letting someone else take pictures of something first, this is some great insight on the Elementalists.
The inherent nature of this magic means that even if they were disbanded, it would be very difficult to effectively fold them into the Colleges and have them be watched over by Wind magic users. Any potential oversight would need to be by regular non-wizards, or at least people with magical power who don't actively hold the Winds within them.
Hedge Magic doesn't seem similarly affected to the extent of Elementalism, though, given how Baba Brzeginias could cast that spell in our presence back during Unrest in Ostermark. Perhaps that's because it's drawing not on the material elements but on the concept of the Hedge? Thus, it would be easier to cast in the place and time it was - a tiny village at the edges of society, at dusk (the border between day and night). She might not have had the power to do so otherwise, which is why she told us to come back then.
...If this speculation is correct, it presents further difficulties for any future attempts to try to legalize the Hedgewise. Their power might partly literally reside on living on the edges of things. And the Colleges are too mainstream and Wind-y for that.
Looks over at the Black Water Canal and also at the River Leylines we've developed.
...I know it says Naval Tactics, but I don't suppose the skill applies for fighting on boats in rivers?
The inherent nature of this magic means that even if they were disbanded, it would be very difficult to effectively fold them into the Colleges and have them be watched over by Wind magic users. Any potential oversight would need to be by regular non-wizards, or at least people with magical power who don't actively hold the Winds within them.
Hedge Magic doesn't seem similarly affected to the extent of Elementalism, though, given how Baba Brzeginias could cast that spell in our presence back during Unrest in Ostermark. Perhaps that's because it's drawing not on the material elements but on the concept of the Hedge? Thus, it would be easier to cast in the place and time it was - a tiny village at the edges of society, at dusk (the border between day and night). She might not have had the power to do so otherwise, which is why she told us to come back then.
...If this speculation is correct, it presents further difficulties for any future attempts to try to legalize the Hedgewise. Their power might partly literally reside on living on the edges of things. And the Colleges are too mainstream and Wind-y for that.
I won't question that an impressionable young girl who grew up in a landlocked province and who has probably never seen the sea before took a look at a drawing on a book and then instantly felt it slot into her soul. That's just how hobbies arise. And...
Looks over at the Black Water Canal and also at the River Leylines we've developed.
...I know it says Naval Tactics, but I don't suppose the skill applies for fighting on boats in rivers?
They might, however, be annoyingly good at handing the River Spirit tributaries.
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Putting her on the EIC action to improve their navy could be interesting in the future. So far it seems like what we've got is doing the job fine, but if the predicted pirate explosion does indeed hit post canal it might be worth expanding at some point.
So what happens to miracle-working priests? If the speculation about the Ice Witches is true, then presumably the this type of magically attuned human is capable of studying earthbound magics. Also the corollary to the winds altering earthbound magic, is that the geomantic web is altered by the their presence. This might not be a problem for the Slann monitoring it and the portions that are underground might be insulated, but doesn't it mean that the web can only operate where the winds aren't?
I think Elementalism to Hedgecraft may be as the Earthbound magic is to Winds magic: the former is a very basic form of the latter, but it is so basic that it becomes in some ways fundamentally different. "Earthbound magic that comes from water resonates with water and therefore can manipulate water" is extremely straightforward. "Earthbound magic from the ash of a hawthorn branch burned at noon resonates with the idea of boundaries (???) and can therefore lets you see into the spirit world" is much more involved, and while it might technically be the same kind of concept as Elementalism, it seems to me to be closer to the bizzare dream logic of rituals. I don't think there's much reason to expect that Hedgecraft will obey similar laws to Elementalism, and if it did I don't think Aksel's rock pouch would've worked - it's supposed to function near large amounts of Dhar, after all.
Somic
It's meow or never
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Eike loving boats just greatly increased my desire to take her on the elfcation (and leave her in Lothern with Wolf, of course). Ulthuan is as naval as it gets!
As for Sofia... I'm very much in favor of showing her around and explaining all the facilities Pan hasn't yet, introducing her to the spiders, the dwarves (Pan is probably better connected among the halflings), laying out all the resources she has access to, and all the contacts if she needs help or advice. We aren't going to get her to feel safe around us with a speech, that's just not gonna happen, so I want to present ourselves as a level-headed, reliable source of information first of all. And maybe address her fears a little, tell her that infractions below harming people or violating the Articles genuinely don't matter for us.
As for Sofia... I'm very much in favor of showing her around and explaining all the facilities Pan hasn't yet, introducing her to the spiders, the dwarves (Pan is probably better connected among the halflings), laying out all the resources she has access to, and all the contacts if she needs help or advice. We aren't going to get her to feel safe around us with a speech, that's just not gonna happen, so I want to present ourselves as a level-headed, reliable source of information first of all. And maybe address her fears a little, tell her that infractions below harming people or violating the Articles genuinely don't matter for us.
Regarding the elementalism paper:
Review articles, which do not publish new discoveries but instead review other works in a field, do exist.
However, they are usually written by someone who are already experts on the topic (based on their past contribution). And Mathilde is not an expert on elementalism.
So if we wanted to do that, we arguably should cooperate with an elementalist as co-author to add their expertise to the review.
That way we have experts from both schools of magic discuss the topic and publish that discussion as a review.
Review articles, which do not publish new discoveries but instead review other works in a field, do exist.
However, they are usually written by someone who are already experts on the topic (based on their past contribution). And Mathilde is not an expert on elementalism.
So if we wanted to do that, we arguably should cooperate with an elementalist as co-author to add their expertise to the review.
That way we have experts from both schools of magic discuss the topic and publish that discussion as a review.
I've got a busy day today, so I'm not going to be able to keep up with the conversation like I normally do. I'm sure you'll all terribly miss my presence over the next nine hours.
So a few quick thoughts:
1) magic wants to be something, and when you push it near something, it becomes more of that something. Usually that something is the 8 winds, thanks to the machines of the old ones imposing 8 natures upon them. But earthbound magic, divinity, and presumably even things like Yin/Yang can all be somethings, if you're careful enough.
2) we should probably poke our noses into those last three houses soon-ish.
3) I know this might be heresy to some, but I think we should take our hat off for this conversation. This should be a talk between fellow wizards.
Also maybe ask something like "what does being a wizard of the empire mean to you?"
Or "are you a woman of faith?" Get an idea if she has something she believes in strong enough to counterbalance her own desires
So a few quick thoughts:
1) magic wants to be something, and when you push it near something, it becomes more of that something. Usually that something is the 8 winds, thanks to the machines of the old ones imposing 8 natures upon them. But earthbound magic, divinity, and presumably even things like Yin/Yang can all be somethings, if you're careful enough.
2) we should probably poke our noses into those last three houses soon-ish.
3) I know this might be heresy to some, but I think we should take our hat off for this conversation. This should be a talk between fellow wizards.
Also maybe ask something like "what does being a wizard of the empire mean to you?"
Or "are you a woman of faith?" Get an idea if she has something she believes in strong enough to counterbalance her own desires
I'm wondering whether, in this setting, there is a Matter-Energy-Spirit gradient continuum.
That is, whereas in our world there's a continuum of Matter -- solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma, plus uncommon states of matter that don't really get used for common "solid, liquid, gas" understanding -- and it being convertible into Energy...
... if in Warhammer Fantasy, there is the sphere of "Spirit"/"Concept"/"Mind"/"Soul" somewhere in that gradient.
I've banged the drum on a theory that maybe primordial beings had some sort of life-cycle that creates or brings into being more matter or energy, and that their lifecycle adds more matter or energy to the planet they live on. ((Or perhaps the planet itself somehow generates stuff, I dunno; for all I know, a planet could be capable of that in this universe, this isn't IRL. It seems more likely that expansion requires life and thinking beings... but for all we know, perhaps planets have a form of anima mundi or genius locus.))
Running from the "a continuum from raw Aethyr to Winds to Earthbound" [to Rune magic] idea Boney brought up, I wonder if even further below Rune magic is just "matter"? Or perhaps "matter and physical effects".
Maybe rather than a single continuum, it's an axis with X and Y coordinates. And "base, physical matter" is the Y axis, near the bottom, while the X axis has the "raw Aethyr-Winds-Earthbound-Runemagic" thing.
Point being, I wondered whether this reality is somehow self-sustaining or self-expanding. Maybe via life expanding or sustaining the universe itself.
Anyway, now that I've gotten that thought out of the way, I've had another idea I've been cooking up in my head and wondering about.
So, okay, you know how there are some mildly-global Wind-based phenomena across the world? That is, the way the Hedge/paths-of-the-Old-Ones/whatever might be "the way that Ulgu was used to make a world-wide travel method"? And the way that the Ghyran global-thing might presumably be the Oak of Ages? And my theory that something about the Darklands or the Mountains of Mourne or Skytitan Lands might be "the Ghur equivalent (fierce and huge beasts, mountains that just grow or which might be Titan bodies)"?
Well, I've had a habit of asking myself "So what, exactly, would 'global thingummies' that are of other Winds look like? What would an Aqshy or an Azyr or a Hysh or an etc equivalent of Oak of Ages/Mountains of Mourn/Shadow-passageways look like?"
And a day or two ago I put together an idea for what the Hysh version might be:
We were told that the High Elves are cagey and hard to pin down about whether their Gods are real, or aspirational ideas, or philosophies, or all at once, or whatever.
And Deathfang's story -- for all that putting much theorizing on a children's bedtime story is questionable -- implied the Gods came alive and were accidental creations, due to the Aethyr flooding in.
The Wind of truth and philosophy, of the abstract and contemplative, the domain of philosophers and metaphysicians... the Wind that somehow is predisposed towards having a bunch of like-minded people being able to cast together and work miracles together.
What if Hysh was sort-of used to create some kind of, I dunno the right phrase for this, "set of icons or ideals for people to think on/about" or "targets of worship and of thought"? If Hysh was used to create some forms of "living philosophies", or "metaphysical idols" to be the center of people's worship or faith? Whether from the top-down or the bottom up. Maybe they created good ideas and philosophies first. Maybe they created them from the bottom up. Looking at what their subjects -- humans, dwarfs, elves, lizardmen, ogres, others -- were like and "created the set of philosophies and mental and emotional states that those people would experience, and bound them into personifications or idols" while also making sure that the idols would be tweaked and tuned to try to reflect their best values or to at least make sure they wouldn't be total shitters.
It was a process that was being worked on, and probably didn't fully finish. And probably wouldn't have been fully finished, because it is a goal that grows bigger when people move into different physical and social environments and start living different lives. ((And there was that one poster that came up with the observation that the elf mandala pantheon looks like 4 or 6 of them are pretty well done... and then the rest are more crudely or hastily thrown in there, as if it was being put together with speed or necessity or whatever-sort-of-fit by the end.))
Ghyran says that life and growth is everywhere. Ghur says that ferocity and wildness is everywhere. Ulgu says that corner cases are everywhere. Hysh says that thought and philosophy and contemplation is everywhere.
So maybe Gods or Spirits were, I dunno, meant to be more like "living(?) philosophies" or "living experiences of mental thought" of some sort.
Alternatively, maybe they were intended to be like AI Governors or something. Or who knows what. Maybe they'd be the equivalent of AI moderators of the internet, once that got created and up and running in 20,000 more years.
And then the coming of Chaos spilled the Winds and Aethyr everywhere, and those finely crafted theories and philosophies and ideals... drew breath and came (more?) alive.
That is, whereas in our world there's a continuum of Matter -- solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma, plus uncommon states of matter that don't really get used for common "solid, liquid, gas" understanding -- and it being convertible into Energy...
... if in Warhammer Fantasy, there is the sphere of "Spirit"/"Concept"/"Mind"/"Soul" somewhere in that gradient.
I've banged the drum on a theory that maybe primordial beings had some sort of life-cycle that creates or brings into being more matter or energy, and that their lifecycle adds more matter or energy to the planet they live on. ((Or perhaps the planet itself somehow generates stuff, I dunno; for all I know, a planet could be capable of that in this universe, this isn't IRL. It seems more likely that expansion requires life and thinking beings... but for all we know, perhaps planets have a form of anima mundi or genius locus.))
Running from the "a continuum from raw Aethyr to Winds to Earthbound" [to Rune magic] idea Boney brought up, I wonder if even further below Rune magic is just "matter"? Or perhaps "matter and physical effects".
Maybe rather than a single continuum, it's an axis with X and Y coordinates. And "base, physical matter" is the Y axis, near the bottom, while the X axis has the "raw Aethyr-Winds-Earthbound-Runemagic" thing.
Point being, I wondered whether this reality is somehow self-sustaining or self-expanding. Maybe via life expanding or sustaining the universe itself.
Anyway, now that I've gotten that thought out of the way, I've had another idea I've been cooking up in my head and wondering about.
So, okay, you know how there are some mildly-global Wind-based phenomena across the world? That is, the way the Hedge/paths-of-the-Old-Ones/whatever might be "the way that Ulgu was used to make a world-wide travel method"? And the way that the Ghyran global-thing might presumably be the Oak of Ages? And my theory that something about the Darklands or the Mountains of Mourne or Skytitan Lands might be "the Ghur equivalent (fierce and huge beasts, mountains that just grow or which might be Titan bodies)"?
Well, I've had a habit of asking myself "So what, exactly, would 'global thingummies' that are of other Winds look like? What would an Aqshy or an Azyr or a Hysh or an etc equivalent of Oak of Ages/Mountains of Mourn/Shadow-passageways look like?"
And a day or two ago I put together an idea for what the Hysh version might be:
We were told that the High Elves are cagey and hard to pin down about whether their Gods are real, or aspirational ideas, or philosophies, or all at once, or whatever.
And Deathfang's story -- for all that putting much theorizing on a children's bedtime story is questionable -- implied the Gods came alive and were accidental creations, due to the Aethyr flooding in.
The Wind of truth and philosophy, of the abstract and contemplative, the domain of philosophers and metaphysicians... the Wind that somehow is predisposed towards having a bunch of like-minded people being able to cast together and work miracles together.
What if Hysh was sort-of used to create some kind of, I dunno the right phrase for this, "set of icons or ideals for people to think on/about" or "targets of worship and of thought"? If Hysh was used to create some forms of "living philosophies", or "metaphysical idols" to be the center of people's worship or faith? Whether from the top-down or the bottom up. Maybe they created good ideas and philosophies first. Maybe they created them from the bottom up. Looking at what their subjects -- humans, dwarfs, elves, lizardmen, ogres, others -- were like and "created the set of philosophies and mental and emotional states that those people would experience, and bound them into personifications or idols" while also making sure that the idols would be tweaked and tuned to try to reflect their best values or to at least make sure they wouldn't be total shitters.
It was a process that was being worked on, and probably didn't fully finish. And probably wouldn't have been fully finished, because it is a goal that grows bigger when people move into different physical and social environments and start living different lives. ((And there was that one poster that came up with the observation that the elf mandala pantheon looks like 4 or 6 of them are pretty well done... and then the rest are more crudely or hastily thrown in there, as if it was being put together with speed or necessity or whatever-sort-of-fit by the end.))
Ghyran says that life and growth is everywhere. Ghur says that ferocity and wildness is everywhere. Ulgu says that corner cases are everywhere. Hysh says that thought and philosophy and contemplation is everywhere.
So maybe Gods or Spirits were, I dunno, meant to be more like "living(?) philosophies" or "living experiences of mental thought" of some sort.
Alternatively, maybe they were intended to be like AI Governors or something. Or who knows what. Maybe they'd be the equivalent of AI moderators of the internet, once that got created and up and running in 20,000 more years.
And then the coming of Chaos spilled the Winds and Aethyr everywhere, and those finely crafted theories and philosophies and ideals... drew breath and came (more?) alive.
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
- Location
- The Destination of Fate
- Pronouns
- She/Her
True, true. Upon thinking it through, it wouldn't track if Wind users disrupted Hedge Magic.
- Location
- Russia
Wouldn't Volans, who had excellent Windsight but didn't cast anything until his meeting with Teclis, know about the phenomena?
Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Boney Thank you for the update. I appreciate all the research that you most definitely had to do to pump this update out.
I will abstain from this vote. I struggle to think of something to say to a real life person who struggles with real life issues, I wouldn't know the first thing to say to someone who's scared of being killed for being a danger to society.
I will abstain from this vote. I struggle to think of something to say to a real life person who struggles with real life issues, I wouldn't know the first thing to say to someone who's scared of being killed for being a danger to society.
- Location
- UK
Come now Mathilde, you just figured out the fundamental reason why Elementalists will never be able to match up to the Colleges in their chosen sphere as defenders against Chaos, your institutional ego was a bit too fragile if this bruised it
Jeez, I wonder what the wider reception would be if Elementalism Explained Through Earthbound Magic Resonance were published.
Anyway, this does very much explain why the Elementalists were passed over by Magnus. I also wonder what other forms of strong magical resonance might exist.
…unexpected.
Let's make sure she never meets Druchii Pirate Man.
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- Location
- Australia
We're meeting our girlfriend's apprentice, so let's act like we're meeting our girlfriend's apprentice. Say hi, welcome her to Eight Peaks, and talk up the coolness of her new master. We don't need to do 5d chess here, just provide stability and welcomeness.
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