Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
So this is probably a very bad idea. But what do you think would happen if we invited the Druchii Sorceress to give a lecture at the Colleges? And then made sure the Asur ambassador went.
Bad things. The Druchii and Asur have been at war for twice as long as the Empire has existed. They've been at war longer than the Karaz Ankor has. They really really hate each other.
 
Also depending on how indiscriminate the spell is, specifically whether it's able to scramble mediums of information the caster doesn't know are mediums of information, you're going to end up with a lot of scrambled DNA with symptoms similar to extreme radiation poisoning. Plus if it can scramble the information encoded in the neural networks of brains you have an instadeath spell. Either of which would be a very good reason for every god other than the Four to try and suppress such a spell since while Chaos may call a world with everybody dead a win the others need worshippers to survive and such a spell getting out could very easily turn into a MAD scenario if it gets reverse engineered by an enemy faction.
I feel compelled to lecture on information theory.

DNA is not "Information" anymore then a rock is "Information". Now yes you could say that DNA contains a bunch of information, but using the same metric a rock contains just as much. "Information" only has meaning when it is given meaning by intelligent minds. You can say DNA has the blueprints for creating a living being, but that is like saying that a rock contains blueprint for a truly accurate rock simulation technically true but either extremely misleading or completely mundane.

DNA is a arrangement of chemicals that results in predictable reactions obeying certain rules. A rock is an arrangement of chemicals that results in predictable reactions obeying certain rules.

Have I gotten the point across? I don't think that I explained this as well as my information theory professor.
 
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I feel compelled to lecture on information theory.

DNA is not "Information" anymore then a rock is "Information". Now yes you could say that DNA contains a bunch of information, but using the same metric a rock contains just as much. "Information" only has meaning when it is given meaning by intelligent minds. You can say DNA has the blueprints for creating a living being, but that like saying that a rock contains blueprint for a truly accurate rock simulation technically true but either extremely misleading or completely mundane.

DNA is a arrangement of chemical that results in predictable reactions obeying certain rules. A rock is an arrangement of chemical that results in predictable reactions obeying certain rules.

Have I gotten the point across? I don't think that I explained this as well as my information theory professor.
I completely understand that, I was making the assumption that the spell would scramble information in the colloquial sense of information, that which has recognizable semantic content and neither minimal or maximal entropy. It is true in the strictest sense that a rock has as much information as DNA. But if the spell operates under that logic, it would be even worse as everything in its radius is turned into a completely different something else as the information that defines it is randomized. Everything inside would be destroyed and given that there are many more high energy configurations than low energy ones everything around it would be destroyed too as suddenly either a singularity or a ball of quark-gluon plasma is created where there used to be the target of the spell.
 
Maybe rather than fusing together, the two runic items instead launch themselves in opposite directions like a videogame speedrunner abusing glitches to launch himself through a level really fast.


As for Ulgu spells... it feels to me a bit like Ulgu has a few ground basic fundamentals for itself; stuff like "ambiguity" "uncertainty" "illusions" "confusion" "fog" "interstices" ((and perhaps something related to passageways or teleportation or spacefolding but I don't have a neat and handy single word for it; whereas Azyr is the wind of probability, about actually navigating and guiding somebody through a place, or about locating things... also some higher intellect stuff or insight... but anyway)) and then... and then, you shove those fundamental things through you-as-the-Wizard.

That is, the way to create some kind of spell of "Do a switcheroo of who is friend and foe; thus making an enemy believe or see their allies as their enemies" requires you to have a Wizard that has a compatible Ulgu-mindset in order to be able to parse Ulgu the natural (or artificially ordered) phenomena into that "Mess With Friend-or-Foe Identification" spell you want.

Because that's sort of the feel I'd been getting from a few things here and there. Like, a mention of 'newly created spells are easier for the creator' here, a mention of 'enchanting is kind of like binding the Winds into a static state' there... It felt like the unifying thing here is that in order to make some enchantment or ritual or new spell or whatnot, you sort of... have to grasp a stream of water flowing through a hydroelectric dam and convince it to power your much smaller waterwheel you've built by hand.

And also, presumably this has to be done by thinking minds. Or feeling minds or living beings, whatever. Winds are bound by thinking beings. Which might also imply the possibility of things happening on a cultural scale too. With traditions or superstitions or ritual lifestyles that wind up having small, or large, or effects. ((Maybe you can have a machine do it; but then perhaps that invites the risk of possession, as came up in the investigation into the Waystones. "Any Enchantment that big, that can think, would be a risk of possession." Perhaps you can make a machine with a strong enough anti-virus defense that it'll keep out even the Dark Gods. Perhaps that is what the Old Ones did with the machines that divide primordial energy into 8 Winds. Or perhaps not.)) Apparitions. Kislevite Griffon calvary spooky banners thing. Locations that seem to have soaked up the stories and deeds that happened there; that is, some of the narration for, say, our first entrance and exploration into Karak Eights... well in hindsight it made me wonder how much of it was just Mathilde's mind coming up with stuff, and how much of it might have been subtle influences or effects.

But once it's altered by a thinking being, perhaps it keeps on being in that state; maybe that was how/why the "great machines" are so robust. Because they were the first thing made, and made by the greatest thinking minds, so they're not easy to alter. And because they're the first and greatest act of magic, they've very hard to alter. ... Or maybe "great machines" is a phrase that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, as we only got it from one story and we don't have full context.

And then there's however the Gods fit into this or might interact with all that.

Anyway. All of that was intended to say; "When you ask 'Can we create an Ulgu spell that does X?'", what you really need to know is "Does Ulgu naturally predispose itself to do something like that?" followed by "If not, do we, Mathilde, have the pre-requisite mindset or traits that could 'sieve' Ulgu through our mind's eye and into this spell?"

A lot of the time, questions about new spells or ideas for spells, well... they're more like the poster asking "Say, does Ulgu work like this?" They're like exploration attempts or probing the waters.

Except since we usually tend to jump to "I have a spell idea! -> Ask about the spell idea." To the complete form.

... Then again, the alternative to asking "Does X work as a spell?" is to ask a bunch of leading questions about the idea you have in your head in order to work up to your actual spell idea so... Dunno how to make it easier on Boney.

If we had a strong grasp of what exactly Ulgu is and what it 'naturally' does or what Ulgu spells are the most natural ones, that we could then build off of for spell creation ideas, maybe we'd have a better grasp on things.
 
I completely understand that, I was making the assumption that the spell would scramble information in the colloquial sense of information, that which has recognizable semantic content and neither minimal or maximal entropy. It is true in the strictest sense that a rock has as much information as DNA. But if the spell operates under that logic, it would be even worse as everything in its radius is turned into a completely different something else as the information that defines it is randomized. Everything inside would be destroyed and given that there are many more high energy configurations than low energy ones everything around it would be destroyed too as suddenly either a singularity or a ball of quark-gluon plasma is created where there used to be the target of the spell.
The burning shadows spell already sort of does that. Just the matter resists because not only stone is an insulator against magic, but all real things are. But burning shadows can randomise the surface and steadily burn though.
 
I completely understand that, I was making the assumption that the spell would scramble information in the colloquial sense of information, that which has recognizable semantic content and neither minimal or maximal entropy. It is true in the strictest sense that a rock has as much information as DNA. But if the spell operates under that logic, it would be even worse as everything in its radius is turned into a completely different something else as the information that defines it is randomized. Everything inside would be destroyed and given that there are many more high energy configurations than low energy ones everything around it would be destroyed too as suddenly either a singularity or a ball of quark-gluon plasma is created where there used to be the target of the spell.

spells are warp magic. they work largely how everyone, collectively (including the wind itself, but mostly the caster), expects them to.

no one involved (except the creatures you absolutely should not be listening to) likely has the foggiest idea what DNA is, or that from certain perspectives literally everything is a form of information (which falls under the burrito clause of magic anyway.). and so the spell is not going to target it nor use the theoretical connection to information as a physical property.
 
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I'm sure that at some point in the future, some wizard will create a turing machine out of magic. They will then most likely proceed to run Doom on it. However, that wizard will not be Mathilde, and it will not be done anytime soon, as doing such a thing needs some serious math or a background in computing that does not yet exist in Warhammer.
 
Maybe rather than fusing together, the two runic items instead launch themselves in opposite directions like a videogame speedrunner abusing glitches to launch himself through a level really fast.


As for Ulgu spells... it feels to me a bit like Ulgu has a few ground basic fundamentals for itself; stuff like "ambiguity" "uncertainty" "illusions" "confusion" "fog" "interstices" ((and perhaps something related to passageways or teleportation or spacefolding but I don't have a neat and handy single word for it; whereas Azyr is the wind of probability, about actually navigating and guiding somebody through a place, or about locating things... also some higher intellect stuff or insight... but anyway)) and then... and then, you shove those fundamental things through you-as-the-Wizard.

That is, the way to create some kind of spell of "Do a switcheroo of who is friend and foe; thus making an enemy believe or see their allies as their enemies" requires you to have a Wizard that has a compatible Ulgu-mindset in order to be able to parse Ulgu the natural (or artificially ordered) phenomena into that "Mess With Friend-or-Foe Identification" spell you want.

Because that's sort of the feel I'd been getting from a few things here and there. Like, a mention of 'newly created spells are easier for the creator' here, a mention of 'enchanting is kind of like binding the Winds into a static state' there... It felt like the unifying thing here is that in order to make some enchantment or ritual or new spell or whatnot, you sort of... have to grasp a stream of water flowing through a hydroelectric dam and convince it to power your much smaller waterwheel you've built by hand.

And also, presumably this has to be done by thinking minds. Or feeling minds or living beings, whatever. Winds are bound by thinking beings. Which might also imply the possibility of things happening on a cultural scale too. With traditions or superstitions or ritual lifestyles that wind up having small, or large, or effects. ((Maybe you can have a machine do it; but then perhaps that invites the risk of possession, as came up in the investigation into the Waystones. "Any Enchantment that big, that can think, would be a risk of possession." Perhaps you can make a machine with a strong enough anti-virus defense that it'll keep out even the Dark Gods. Perhaps that is what the Old Ones did with the machines that divide primordial energy into 8 Winds. Or perhaps not.)) Apparitions. Kislevite Griffon calvary spooky banners thing. Locations that seem to have soaked up the stories and deeds that happened there; that is, some of the narration for, say, our first entrance and exploration into Karak Eights... well in hindsight it made me wonder how much of it was just Mathilde's mind coming up with stuff, and how much of it might have been subtle influences or effects.

But once it's altered by a thinking being, perhaps it keeps on being in that state; maybe that was how/why the "great machines" are so robust. Because they were the first thing made, and made by the greatest thinking minds, so they're not easy to alter. And because they're the first and greatest act of magic, they've very hard to alter. ... Or maybe "great machines" is a phrase that is doing a lot of heavy lifting, as we only got it from one story and we don't have full context.

And then there's however the Gods fit into this or might interact with all that.

Anyway. All of that was intended to say; "When you ask 'Can we create an Ulgu spell that does X?'", what you really need to know is "Does Ulgu naturally predispose itself to do something like that?" followed by "If not, do we, Mathilde, have the pre-requisite mindset or traits that could 'sieve' Ulgu through our mind's eye and into this spell?"

A lot of the time, questions about new spells or ideas for spells, well... they're more like the poster asking "Say, does Ulgu work like this?" They're like exploration attempts or probing the waters.

Except since we usually tend to jump to "I have a spell idea! -> Ask about the spell idea." To the complete form.

... Then again, the alternative to asking "Does X work as a spell?" is to ask a bunch of leading questions about the idea you have in your head in order to work up to your actual spell idea so... Dunno how to make it easier on Boney.

If we had a strong grasp of what exactly Ulgu is and what it 'naturally' does or what Ulgu spells are the most natural ones, that we could then build off of for spell creation ideas, maybe we'd have a better grasp on things.
From my way of thinking there are a few things that Ulgu finds fairly easily.

Increase subjectively and take advantage of it: Spells to make things appear more or less valuable, more or less scary, more or less attractive or more or less hidden. By my thinking the spells come in two parts first it confuses your judgement then takes advantage of your confused state to convince you of something. The fact that all of these spells are in the relatively simple set enforces my idea that this is something that comes naturally to Ulgu. Although Ulgu does appear to generally prefer to go for less rather then more when changing subjective opinion about more or less.

Shadow steed seems to be the only relatively simple Ulgu spell that can't come down to subjective opinion.

Spell idea: Manipulation of authority making someone or something seem to have more or less. Unfortunately doesn't really fit with warrior of fog, but I could see some other gray wizard managing it.
 
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Pretty sure the Karaz Ankor existed before the Druchii Asur split. Considering Malekith was the Asur ambassador to the Karaz Ankor prior to said split.
The claim wasn't that the Druchii and Asur have been at war since before the Karaz Ankor existed, it was that they've been at war longer than the Karaz Ankor has been at war.
 
I'm sure that at some point in the future, some wizard will create a turing machine out of magic. They will then most likely proceed to run Doom on it. However, that wizard will not be Mathilde, and it will not be done anytime soon, as doing such a thing needs some serious math or a background in computing that does not yet exist in Warhammer.
Theoretically you might be able to do it by modifying Rite of Way. Instead of having the Skywalk be placed by checking the terrain for check for other Skywalk spells by comparing the Moore neighborhood around it with the Skywalk free areas above and below it at regular intervals. One or fewer detections and have the Skywalk spell shut off, four or more also shut off, three either sustain or turn on if off, two also check the status of the current cell and sustain if Skywalk is on or do nothing if it's off. Simple rules but they equate to Conway's Game of Life which has been proven to be Truing complete. That said actually building a Turing machine, much less a useful one, is considerably harder when working with at such a basic level with only two dimensions.
 
From my way of thinking there are a few things that Ulgu finds fairly easily.

Increase subjectively and take advantage of it: Spells to make things appear more or less valuable, more or less scary, more or less attractive or more or less hidden. By my thinking the spells come in two parts first it confuses your judgement then takes advantage of your confused state to convince you of something. The fact that all of these spells are in the relatively simple set enforces my idea that this is something that comes naturally to Ulgu. Although Ulgu does appear to generally prefer to go for less rather then more when changing subjective opinion about more or less.

Shadow steed seems to be the only relatively simple Ulgu spell that can't come down to subjective opinion.

Spell idea: Manipulation of authority making someone or something seem to have more or less. Unfortunately doesn't really fit with warrior of fog, but I could see some other gray wizard managing it.
Perhaps the way that some of the "subjective value of stuff, like how pretty or valuable a thing is" works is that... after inducing the "confuses your judgment" part, the "takes advantage to convince you of something" is predicated on the casting Wizard's mind. i.e. the subjectivity comes from the Wizard. Value or beauty or ugliness is subjective. The Wizard both provides context to Ulgu, telling Ulgu "target beauty and attractiveness", telling Ulgu "this is what attractiveness is" and then also telling it "and I want you to make it more, or less, attractive."

Ulgu on the other hand does all the heavy lifting of "confuse or make uncertain a given trait or aspect."

So, perhaps what is happening here, is that what Ulgu actually is, is confusion and ambiguity and etc and stuff. It is, effectively, the spellcaster that takes those fairly agnostic or indifferent traits... and then transforms that into "subjectivity". That is, human beings experience subjectivity, human beings are the ones who gave words to the idea of subjectivity. Subjectivity is how humans tend to use Ulgu, at times. Applying Ulgu to mess around with subjective things.

... Perhaps it is because 'something that is subjective' is something that exists as an opinion or depends on the perception of people; something that is debatable. And, as the Wind of Confusion? If something is debatable, then it is easily led to be affected or targeted by Ulgu.

Ulgu. Ambiguity, uncertainty, illusion... appearances.

That is, surface appearances; how things appear to be, from a surface reading or from perceiving them. In every sense of that word. Not just visual appearances. But also, well behavior or, well, anything that is "skin deep". Another way to say it might be "perception" or how things are perceived to be.

The saying "don't judge a book by their cover" has been affirmed and denied and given twists and all that. We're all familiar with that saying. Ulgu, might be the Wind of the art of creating book covers. That is, however it is you judge a book by its cover, or don't judge it, or try to course-correct and judge the opposite way... Ulgu is the art of creating covers. Creating surface or outside appearances. Those are the kinds of illusions Ulgu does. (Along with actual illusions.)

That can get pretty scary. Mental illusions and playing with the mind, that is. If you can convince somebody that the password you just gave is valid, well, that's only the least of such things. Playing around with what a person thinks in general, can be very scary.
Shadow steed seems to be the only relatively simple Ulgu spell that can't come down to subjective opinion.
I vaguely gestured in the idea of "Also travel or transportation of some sort? Can't find a good single word for this." when trying to sum up Ulgu.

Ulgu... the legends and myths we have, seem to imply that the Paths of the Old Ones ((a thing that comes up in Giantslayer... well, I think the two Chaos Sorcerers mention it as early as the book they appear in I think, but only as a brief "The Paths of the Old Ones will open soon")) and that whatever-it-was that Ranald might have scampered off to secure, and probably set some of the Hedgewise to guard (in the Empire part of the Old World anyway) might be all related or might be the same thing.

If so, that would imply that Ulgu is somehow associated with travel or teleportation.

Perhaps it relates to quantum entanglement or quantum uncertainty, or space-folding or something.

Maybe like the old shell game trick, with a coin or pea. Ulgu can confuse where a thing is. And sufficiently large or finely enough controlled applications of Ulgu, can allow for the creation of passageways. Or shortcuts. Or fast travel. I dunno.

I feel like Ulgu might warp or confuse space or location... and then Azyr is applied to then navigate the uncertainty and tempestuous zone you've created. Azyr, a Wind of probability (like Ulgu is ambiguity and uncertainty). Azyr also probably has some neat boosts or methods for traveling in general too; because once you've created a weird passageway, it's not enough to just have a magical compass, you also probably want to be able to do a few course-corrections here and there, such as by summoning up a few winds to nudge you where you need to be going.

Anyway. I feel like that might be the case, because I think both Ulgu and Azyr are found on ship-magics? i.e. The Marienburg school of magical navigation is, presumably, heavily Azyr. But there are probably Ulgu-based sailing magics and stuff too. Though at the level that sailing ships operate, Ulgu spellcasters might be better at the... "make anybody trying to track us, lose track of us" part of things. And also perhaps if there are illusions or mists or confusing stuff to navigate through.

Anyway. Shadowsteed.

Where does the base of that spell come from, as an idea? Maybe from "how you get from Point A to Point B". Maybe it's sort of like an emergent property of Ulgu; that because Ulgu was used to confuse quantum entanglement or provide or create shortcuts through the world... this eventually set precedent.
((Because that's another thing that the Winds of Magic seemed to be about; precedent as set by thinking beings, as I opined on in my post above. I mean, if you think of the Winds of Magic as just breaking down the primordial-stuff-of-creation that comes from primordial beings like dragons or Fimir or dragon-ogres or sea life or glacial beasts as they die and create mountains -- or maybe as they live and create more territory? -- into 8 artificial energies, so that you can then reweave those 8 energies into a reality as YOU want it to be, rather than reality as naturally created by life... Well, it sort of makes sense. If you view things from the perspective of the Old Ones as, like, wanting to tinker with life artificially... but also being really really big on sustainability and sheer robustness; being well aware that if you decide to take up the axe in order to turn trees into house, you need to make sure that you also plant more trees too. ... Another possible way to view things is that... maybe life or existence is able to be shaped by thinking, or living, beings. Maybe living beings create more of the stuff-of-existence. And maybe the oldest lifeforms on this planet, simply did that for a long time. And more civilized or orderly beings, can do more with the stuff-of-existence; including turning it into a more artificial energy, rather than just a primordial well.))
Anyway. Maybe Shadowsteed uses precedents of "Ulgu was used to create, or is, the Paths of the Old Ones" or maybe the precedents were "Ulgu used as a method for travel" which, in smaller form, became Shadowsteed. ((And in Battle Magic, turns into Steed of Shadows, a shadowy drake that repositions you on the battlefield. And also, the spellcasting trait of Ulgu is... "you can switch positions". Smoke and Shadows.))

... Perhaps if we try to tie things back to "subjectivity, things that are subjective or more opinionated", you could claim that location is a subjective thing. From a certain point of view anyway. ... Not sure that quite fully works.

... Actually maybe it does work, and maybe that's why Ulgu-as-teleporation is battle magic grade. Because the only way you are possibly getting into "Okay, Ulgu will now start minorly treating reality as being more subjective" is if you throw battle magic grade amounts of it around.

... No, wait, but ethereal-ness and invisibility are also effects on there... ... And below those in complexity, there's actually Burning Shadows at Moderately Complicated. Which burns things. For that matter, Mockery of Death is also there, and that puts beings into a sort of stasis. Both are pretty darn physically-affecting-the-world type effects. If you have to get up to battle magic levels in order to get "Yeah, okay, you are now contending with reality on what-something-actually-is-in-a-state-of" effects, then those spells are lower power than expected.

For that matter, Skywalk is literally a lesser magic and not an Ulgu-specific magic. Or the other lesser, or petty, magics being pretty physical-world-affecting.
 
Where does the base of that spell come from, as an idea? Maybe from "how you get from Point A to Point B". Maybe it's sort of like an emergent property of Ulgu; that because Ulgu was used to confuse quantum entanglement or provide or create shortcuts through the world... this eventually set precedent.
At one point in the quest I think that Mathilde said something about it being inspired by the passage of night and day. Whoever made it had a very different understanding then her.
 
Perhaps the way that some of the "subjective value of stuff, like how pretty or valuable a thing is" works is that... after inducing the "confuses your judgment" part, the "takes advantage to convince you of something" is predicated on the casting Wizard's mind. i.e. the subjectivity comes from the Wizard. Value or beauty or ugliness is subjective. The Wizard both provides context to Ulgu, telling Ulgu "target beauty and attractiveness", telling Ulgu "this is what attractiveness is" and then also telling it "and I want you to make it more, or less, attractive."

Ulgu on the other hand does all the heavy lifting of "confuse or make uncertain a given trait or aspect."

So, perhaps what is happening here, is that what Ulgu actually is, is confusion and ambiguity and etc and stuff. It is, effectively, the spellcaster that takes those fairly agnostic or indifferent traits... and then transforms that into "subjectivity". That is, human beings experience subjectivity, human beings are the ones who gave words to the idea of subjectivity. Subjectivity is how humans tend to use Ulgu, at times. Applying Ulgu to mess around with subjective things.

... Perhaps it is because 'something that is subjective' is something that exists as an opinion or depends on the perception of people; something that is debatable. And, as the Wind of Confusion? If something is debatable, then it is easily led to be affected or targeted by Ulgu.

Ulgu. Ambiguity, uncertainty, illusion... appearances.

That is, surface appearances; how things appear to be, from a surface reading or from perceiving them. In every sense of that word. Not just visual appearances. But also, well behavior or, well, anything that is "skin deep". Another way to say it might be "perception" or how things are perceived to be.

The saying "don't judge a book by their cover" has been affirmed and denied and given twists and all that. We're all familiar with that saying. Ulgu, might be the Wind of the art of creating book covers. That is, however it is you judge a book by its cover, or don't judge it, or try to course-correct and judge the opposite way... Ulgu is the art of creating covers. Creating surface or outside appearances. Those are the kinds of illusions Ulgu does. (Along with actual illusions.)

That can get pretty scary. Mental illusions and playing with the mind, that is. If you can convince somebody that the password you just gave is valid, well, that's only the least of such things. Playing around with what a person thinks in general, can be very scary.

I vaguely gestured in the idea of "Also travel or transportation of some sort? Can't find a good single word for this." when trying to sum up Ulgu.

Ulgu... the legends and myths we have, seem to imply that the Paths of the Old Ones ((a thing that comes up in Giantslayer... well, I think the two Chaos Sorcerers mention it as early as the book they appear in I think, but only as a brief "The Paths of the Old Ones will open soon")) and that whatever-it-was that Ranald might have scampered off to secure, and probably set some of the Hedgewise to guard (in the Empire part of the Old World anyway) might be all related or might be the same thing.

If so, that would imply that Ulgu is somehow associated with travel or teleportation.

Perhaps it relates to quantum entanglement or quantum uncertainty, or space-folding or something.

Maybe like the old shell game trick, with a coin or pea. Ulgu can confuse where a thing is. And sufficiently large or finely enough controlled applications of Ulgu, can allow for the creation of passageways. Or shortcuts. Or fast travel. I dunno.

I feel like Ulgu might warp or confuse space or location... and then Azyr is applied to then navigate the uncertainty and tempestuous zone you've created. Azyr, a Wind of probability (like Ulgu is ambiguity and uncertainty). Azyr also probably has some neat boosts or methods for traveling in general too; because once you've created a weird passageway, it's not enough to just have a magical compass, you also probably want to be able to do a few course-corrections here and there, such as by summoning up a few winds to nudge you where you need to be going.

Anyway. I feel like that might be the case, because I think both Ulgu and Azyr are found on ship-magics? i.e. The Marienburg school of magical navigation is, presumably, heavily Azyr. But there are probably Ulgu-based sailing magics and stuff too. Though at the level that sailing ships operate, Ulgu spellcasters might be better at the... "make anybody trying to track us, lose track of us" part of things. And also perhaps if there are illusions or mists or confusing stuff to navigate through.

Anyway. Shadowsteed.

Where does the base of that spell come from, as an idea? Maybe from "how you get from Point A to Point B". Maybe it's sort of like an emergent property of Ulgu; that because Ulgu was used to confuse quantum entanglement or provide or create shortcuts through the world... this eventually set precedent.
((Because that's another thing that the Winds of Magic seemed to be about; precedent as set by thinking beings, as I opined on in my post above. I mean, if you think of the Winds of Magic as just breaking down the primordial-stuff-of-creation that comes from primordial beings like dragons or Fimir or dragon-ogres or sea life or glacial beasts as they die and create mountains -- or maybe as they live and create more territory? -- into 8 artificial energies, so that you can then reweave those 8 energies into a reality as YOU want it to be, rather than reality as naturally created by life... Well, it sort of makes sense. If you view things from the perspective of the Old Ones as, like, wanting to tinker with life artificially... but also being really really big on sustainability and sheer robustness; being well aware that if you decide to take up the axe in order to turn trees into house, you need to make sure that you also plant more trees too. ... Another possible way to view things is that... maybe life or existence is able to be shaped by thinking, or living, beings. Maybe living beings create more of the stuff-of-existence. And maybe the oldest lifeforms on this planet, simply did that for a long time. And more civilized or orderly beings, can do more with the stuff-of-existence; including turning it into a more artificial energy, rather than just a primordial well.))
Anyway. Maybe Shadowsteed uses precedents of "Ulgu was used to create, or is, the Paths of the Old Ones" or maybe the precedents were "Ulgu used as a method for travel" which, in smaller form, became Shadowsteed. ((And in Battle Magic, turns into Steed of Shadows, a shadowy drake that repositions you on the battlefield. And also, the spellcasting trait of Ulgu is... "you can switch positions". Smoke and Shadows.))

... Perhaps if we try to tie things back to "subjectivity, things that are subjective or more opinionated", you could claim that location is a subjective thing. From a certain point of view anyway. ... Not sure that quite fully works.

... Actually maybe it does work, and maybe that's why Ulgu-as-teleporation is battle magic grade. Because the only way you are possibly getting into "Okay, Ulgu will now start minorly treating reality as being more subjective" is if you throw battle magic grade amounts of it around.

... No, wait, but ethereal-ness and invisibility are also effects on there... ... And below those in complexity, there's actually Burning Shadows at Moderately Complicated. Which burns things. For that matter, Mockery of Death is also there, and that puts beings into a sort of stasis. Both are pretty darn physically-affecting-the-world type effects. If you have to get up to battle magic levels in order to get "Yeah, okay, you are now contending with reality on what-something-actually-is-in-a-state-of" effects, then those spells are lower power than expected.

For that matter, Skywalk is literally a lesser magic and not an Ulgu-specific magic. Or the other lesser, or petty, magics being pretty physical-world-affecting.

btw I'd like to complement you on these posts, making musings on setting metaphysics mostly comprehensible and enjoyable to read is a real skill.

For some musings of my own, some thoughts on how the 8 winds aren't exactly rigid things have been percolating. We know the winds can transition to earthbound magic which is its own separate thing (and to dhar too of course), but earthbound magic can also transition to any of the 8 winds, which means they might be better understood as different states of a single kind of magic energy.
And the specific winds too are not rigid in their properties, enchanting is the prosses of changing magic so that it exists in reality static in an object, rather than flowing around according to its whims, but it remains the wind despite the changes. And spellcasting in general is changing the winds so that its new nature then causes the nature of reality to change in some way the spellcaster wants, usually in a way that the wind wouldn't do to reality on its own.
And its not just thinking beings manipulating the winds nature, iirc the way that Johann is able to differentiate metals with his windsight is that different metals will subtlety change the nature of chamon. The winds not only act on reality, but reality also pushes back and acts on the winds.
You might view the 8 winds as just stable points where the aetheric energies in the world will naturally go to when not being pushed to act differently by something. Which might also provide an explanation for what the energies of the gods are, new stable points for the energies to gather at made by the influence of the god.
 
A Mathilde who worked and spent time with the Road Wardens for just as long as quest Mathilde spent with the Dwarfs would probably be able to understand the logic behind the Shadowsteed spell. I'm thinking Road Warden Mathilde would have a more mystical bent to her Ulgu, something like crossroads or a neverending journey with transient stops or sunrises and sunsets.
 
I was rereading the quest and had a thought, do you guys think Taal might be originally a Dwarf god like Cor-Dum? And that whole note about Taal fighting a dragon was his memories of siding with dwarves after having originally helped keep them captive and helping Grim slay (or doing something at least) Urmskaladrak, filtered to his worshippers through the occasional vision or something that they interpreted incorrectly? Admittedly most of my evidence here is the dragon thing and the fact that he has horns like I suspect all Dwarf gods used to.
 
A Mathilde who worked and spent time with the Road Wardens for just as long as quest Mathilde spent with the Dwarfs would probably be able to understand the logic behind the Shadowsteed spell. I'm thinking Road Warden Mathilde would have a more mystical bent to her Ulgu, something like crossroads or a neverending journey with transient stops or sunrises and sunsets.
Spend your time riding to and fro a lot, either leading a nomadic existence like a steppe nomad... or like a wandering cop or detective who goes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and never settles down, and who thus grows accustomed to finding trouble everywhere, and starts to view things more as a journey with pit-stops on the way?

Versus somebody who has a Home Base in a single position such as the Elector Count's castle or, later, Karag Nar, and who instead sallies out from that place to troubleshoot problems for her home, and thinks more tactically or strategically. Who had experience from Abelhelm's campaign against Sylvania and the movement and sallying out thereof, and etc.

Yeah, I could see that happening. Cool to think about, huh?

For a Grey Wizard, for all that Mathilde does a lot of travelling -- crossing the entire Empire back and forth multiple times, something which if you think about it is unusual for even a noble -- to do her business and troubleshoot? She has had 3 main homes she lived in or worked for; Stirland, then Karak Eight Peaks, and now Laurelorn. Though Karak Eight Peaks is still her home.

That's different from Grey Wizards who never settle down in one place -- until they're ready to retire one day; or they come back to the Grey College to retire -- and are roaming troubleshooters.

Even somebody who only roams around in one single province -- like in Ostland or Hochland or Averland -- might be more nomadic or more of a roamer than Mathilde, because it could be about mindset and perspective and whether one has a place they consider their home. Maybe somebody like that, eventually one day to them, all places and locations just started blurring together a bit; and from there came the spell Shadowsteed.

... Or maybe they were just a troubleshooter sent out from one central location, but were sent on missions everywhere, and did have a single place they considered home, but simply had to travel on their own so much that eventually something 'clicked' for them and they came up with a spell for their job.


Alternate possibilities: that spell comes from one of the Hedgewise-aligned spellcasters, from one of the groups that monitor a liminal area, or otherwise deal with a zone or area where space is fucky-wucky. And the Shadowsteed spell was made by one of those guys. Somebody who was part of a group of people who had to deal with weird shit like that.

Alternatively, since some of the Collegiate spells come from the Elves, maybe it was somebody from Yvresse. Or Ellyrion, the horsey horse place. Or from the colonies.
 
At one point in the quest I think that Mathilde said something about it being inspired by the passage of night and day. Whoever made it had a very different understanding then her.
Found it:
Consider Shadowsteed: to your mindset, Ulgu is not a swift wind, nor one especially attuned to horses. If you'd never heard of the spell, you'd think it better suited to Hysh or perhaps Ghur. But you tend to think first in terms of Elemental Ulgu, the fog and the shadow, where the inventor of the spell was much more Mystical and drew inspiration from the inexorable march of dawn and dusk that loop the world every day. Most Grey Wizards can cast the spell, but few could recreate the underlying logic unless they dedicated themselves to the study of the moments on the cusp between day and night.
 
I was rereading the quest and had a thought, do you guys think Taal might be originally a Dwarf god like Cor-Dum? And that whole note about Taal fighting a dragon was his memories of siding with dwarves after having originally helped keep them captive and helping Grim slay (or doing something at least) Urmskaladrak, filtered to his worshippers through the occasional vision or something that they interpreted incorrectly? Admittedly most of my evidence here is the dragon thing and the fact that he has horns like I suspect all Dwarf gods used to.
I don't think that a connection betweeen Taal and the dwarves is particulary likely, but then I wouldn't have guessed that Cor-Dum was once a dwarf God so who knows. I did sepculate that Taal was originally the same kind of being, an Old One created "Warden God" like Cor-Dum, but I think if so He's probably the warden of a different city than the dwarves, possibly Albion (mostly because the Old Faith has a figure could the Green Man which I think could possibly fit Taal, and the Old Faith probably originated in Albion).

It should be noted that the story of Taal killing a dragon is pretty reminiscent of an elven myth about how Anath Raema, Goddess of the Savage hunt, killed the dragon Draugnir. I think if you're looking for a myth that's been misinterpreted that's a likelier source, both because it seems closer to the Taalite legend and because Talabheim was built on elven ruins.
 
Ulgu is ambiguity, uncertainty, and, confusion. this is it's more active qualities. things that pertain to thinking things specifically. These are the things it does.

but it is also the boundary, the space between. it is twilight, it is the dawn and dusk. it is, fog. it is also mist. it is the shadows, that which can't exist in total darkness yet also can't exist in even lighting. these are it's non-subjective qualities, the things it just is.

you could say, the confounding and confusion is what it does. while the boundary and the space between is what it is.

and how you see those things, determines what you can do with it.

for simplified example:
substance of shadow, making something less real and more ulgu. blurring that boundary. this is a, what it is, spell.

Mindhole, confusing someones memory. this is a, what it does, spell.

mockery of death, locking a being into a death-like stillness. confounding the target into torpor, and forcing the body into a point of being not quite dead and not quite alive. this spell is both.

And, for the travel connection. Ulgu is the dawn and dusk, and it is always moving. there is no place on the surface of the world that their tireless march does not reach. this is the easy explanation, the one that requires least leaps of logic if you start from a point of view that ulgu isn't fog or mist but instead is shadow, or obviously, the dawn and dusk.

there is also broader perspective, one a road warden might achieve. where ulgu is The Boundary, the place between a and b. every a and b. the wandering Grey's are more likely to get this perspective. but, that is not an easy perspective to get. this is quite likely more hedge stuff than grey.


also, because i saw it at one point. the winds don't work through some quantum or other obscure branch of physics, in style or actuality. they are warp energy, the energy that obeys only the minds of thinking beings.

tempered by old one tech, and given character unto themselves much like a god, yes.

but still it's the warp.

for matters of the how the winds match the laws of physics: if a peasant doesn't know what you're talking about the wind probably doesn't either.
 
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I was rereading the quest and had a thought, do you guys think Taal might be originally a Dwarf god like Cor-Dum? And that whole note about Taal fighting a dragon was his memories of siding with dwarves after having originally helped keep them captive and helping Grim slay (or doing something at least) Urmskaladrak, filtered to his worshippers through the occasional vision or something that they interpreted incorrectly? Admittedly most of my evidence here is the dragon thing and the fact that he has horns like I suspect all Dwarf gods used to.
Instead of Taal, I put forth Sigmar. He found a new people to shepherd after the dwarfs, and managed to reconcile with them thanks to saving the High King. He left behind a commandment to aid dwarfs, partially due to His past but also since both peoples would benefit from it. Also, the Empire has dwarf populations in it which kind of call back to those dwarf populations Borek mentioned which broke off from the Karaz Ankor to possibly seek their Wardens. Speaking of, another suspected Warden, Sotek, which might have been the cause for some dwarfs to sail across the sea to Lustria, has a twin-tailed comet as His symbol, the same as Sigmar. A symbol which I suspect, to be related to the current known dwarf Wardens in the Old World having horns: Morghur, Hashut, the Horned Rat, and which might also be related to the dwarf fashion of wearing horned helmets.
 
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