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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Mayto said:
Models aside, dwarf women might have a bigger ratio of badasses to normals for appearances in novels.

'occasional writers'

Okay, now I know you don't know what you're talking about because the books I mentioned are the majority of all the dwarf-centric novels that Black library has put out.

How can people make a statement like there not being many female dwarfs in the books, when they've apparently not read the dwarf-heavy books?

Also. There was another book about Karak Varn, which had a dwarf princess join an expedition and kick all kinds of ass.

There's not as many as there could be, sure. But the claim that there's no female dwarfs in WHF Is straight up not true.
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I mean, for me, when talking about 'characters', my baseline is the Army Books and to a lesser extent 'White Dwarf', 'Town Crier', etc etc - basically the 'hobbyist' side of things, where I and almost everyone in the fandom came to the fandom from. When it comes to setting details and so on that is different - but for characters, it's Army Books (or equivalent - maybe Total War would count for this?) or bust. WFRP and the novels don't really have as much of an impact, especially given that, while the new stuff is better on the representation front, it really isn't good enough to counteract how bad the Army Books (&c) plus all the old novels and WFRP stuff are.

And like, if GW actually goes further into getting better and stays that way consistently, or releases actually good Army Books for 'the Old World', then my opinion on this will change. But that is why I think the critiques are pretty well grounded.

Anyway, I like what Boney has done with the setting - this quest is a big part of the reason why I started reappraising the WHF setting and material. But that is Boney being a really good and careful author, rather than GW not having these kinds of problems with their material.
 
Mayto said:
But the claim that there's no female dwarfs in WHF Is straight up not true.
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I don't think anyone has said that. People have been saying that in the wider hobby, the role of women, especially dwarf women, is heavily deemphasised, and yeah, it's great that there are Black Library novels that challenge this assumption, but ultimately the novels are periphery content that isn't engaged with by the majority of the audience. Dwarf women are still missing from the tabletop, from the army books, and from the marketing, and that's an embarrassment.
 
I guess you've got the wood elf twilight twins for female legendary lords? They're pretty badass without seeming especially sexualized or anything.

Other than them you've got ariel and the everqueen, hellebron and morathi, and valkyria, a couple vampires? Not the *best* group of representatives.
 
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Wiggy said:
I guess you've got the wood elf twilight twins for female legendary lords? They're pretty badass without seeming especially sexualized or anything.

Other than them you've got ariel and the everqueen, hellebron and morathi, and valkyria, a couple vampires? Not the *best* group of representatives.
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Elves are the best at female representation. Probably because it's easier for people to believe that magical women are powerful than they are to believe that a human woman is powerful. Also because Elf women are gorgeous. That plays a factor.
 
Codex said:
Elves are the best at female representation. Probably because it's easier for people to believe that magical women are powerful than they are to believe that a human woman is powerful. Also because Elf women are gorgeous. That plays a factor.
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I'm trying to think where the stereotype of female Elven warriors comes from. My first guess would have been Tolkien, like most modern Western fantasy stuff, but actually Tolkien didn't really mention much in the way of female Elven warriors at all. My own first acquaintance with it was WarCraft, but I very very much doubt them having been trend setters instead of trend followers in this regard.
 
You know this talk has got me thinking about the differences in the various romance books between species and cultures. Like for example I'd imagine that Dwarven romance books heavily focuses on things like how the romantic interest labors hard to refine his craft and hand makes a gift suitable of his love, meanwhile a Dark Elf romance book focuses on things like how the lead manipulates those they find desirable into submitting to them.
 
Rafin said:
I'm trying to think where the stereotype of female Elven warriors comes from. My first guess would have been Tolkien, like most modern Western fantasy stuff, but actually Tolkien didn't really mention much in the way of female Elven warriors at all. My own first acquaintance with it was WarCraft, but I very very much doubt them having been trend setters instead of trend followers in this regard.
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Probably 80s D&D or early computer RPGs (Or MUDs at the time)

While Tolkien was definitely the birth place of Modern western fantasy, MUDs were really the place that it all incubated and took shape before infecting the greater media and nerd culture. (Wizardry, Rouge and Ultima, Dragonstone etc etc.)

especially once a section of those collage nerds playing and making MUDs went out into the working world and started writing books, movies, art, games etc etc.
 
Sinsystems said:
You know this talk has got me thinking about the differences in the various romance books between species and cultures. Like for example I'd imagine that Dwarven romance books heavily focuses on things like how the romantic interest labors hard to refine his craft and hand makes a gift suitable of his love, meanwhile a Dark Elf romance book focuses on things like how the lead manipulates those they find desirable into submitting to them.
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Malus Darkblade actually goes into Dark Elf courtship, and it's as twisted as you expect.

Firstly. A Druchii woman is expected to court multiple men and have them compete for her affections, then take the strongest as a husband.

Druchii men are expected to be faithful to their wife, and not cheat on them with another free Druchii woman. (slaves are treated like sex toys, so don't count as cheating to Druchii) Druchii woman meanwhile, should try to cheat, if only to assure their husband is keeping an eye on what they're doing/is capable of doing so.

Malus then describes that the ideal Druchii wife is apparently a housewife who practises a trade in peacetime, goes to war when it is time to invade Ulthuan again, and helps to poison and assassinate her husband's enemies.
 
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Mayto said:
Malus Darkblade actually goes into Dark Elf courtship, and it's as twisted as you expect.

Firstly. A Druchii woman is expected to court multiple men and have them compete for her affections, then take the strongest as a husband.

Druchii men are expected to be faithful to their wife, and not cheat on them with another free Druchii woman. (slaves are treated like sex toys, so don't count as cheating to Druchii) Druchii woman meanwhile, should try to cheat, if only to assure their husband is keeping an eye on what they're doing/is capable of doing so.

Malus then describes that the ideal Druchii wife is apparently a housewife who practises a trade in peacetime, goes to war when it is time to invade Ulthuan again, and helps to poison and assassinate her husband's enemies.
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So in other words Druchii women are reverse harem protagonists, only instead of pure that is the standard option they are manipulative.
 
Chlof said:
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Either that or "Ew promiscuous women" the druchii are so twisted men aren't allowed to cheat while women are expected to.

Honestly adding men not being allowed is just weird, if it was expected, yeah everyone cheats constantly but there's an expectation you don't get caught it would actually make some sense.
 
Mayto said:
I mean, it was written by Dan Abnett. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he just wanted to show the kinda messed up power dynamics Druchii couples would have.
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Plus it does make sense, as Morathi has had a lot of control over the Druchii culture since it's inception and it fits her character to influence things so that she'd have all the permission to do stuff while the men are expected to do what she says.
 
Sinsystems said:
Plus it does make sense, as Morathi has had a lot of control over the Druchii culture since it's inception and it fits her character to influence things so that she'd have all the permission to do stuff while the men are expected to do what she says.
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Morathi doesn't control all of Druchii culture. She has a lot of influence over the Sorcererous cabal as well as the Cult of Khaine, specifically the Witch Elves (becuase there are a lot of sub cults), and she's the Queen of Ghrond, but Malus comes from Hag Graef, which is a distance away from Ghrond and also a distinctly different culture focused on political intrigue.

Here's a cheat sheet:

Naggarond is Malekith's city, ruled under his iron fist. It's home to his Black Guard.

Ghrond is Morathi's city, ruled under her influence, it's the center of the magical forces of the Druchii.

Har Ganeth, city of executioners, is the Hag Queen Hellebron's city, and the center of the Witch Elves cult, the Executioners cult, and the Assassins cult. It's the most pious of Khaine's cities.

Hag Graef is built into a mountain and is a den of intrigue fought over by noble lords under the nominal authority of a Drachau, and it's a bloody position because, as you'd expect, assassins.

Karond Kar is the Druchii's port city, home to their naval fleet, the Black Ark corsairs and captains, as well as where the slaves are processed.

Clar Karond is the city of slaves, further inland of Karond Kar, it's driven by slave labor and full of beastmasters who tame the surrounding monsters and corral them into their wars.

The Watchtowers watch over the northern border, protecting the Druchii from the Chaos Hordes. There also used to be a seventh city further north, but it incurred Malekith's wrath and is in ruins.
 
Codex said:
Ghrond is Morathi's city, ruled under her influence, it's the center of the magical forces of the Druchii.
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I always wondered how Morathi prevents Malekith from creating his own magic school in Nagharond. He could absolutely teach sorceresses to be less dependent from his mother, but the fact that he doesn't makes me think she's preventing him from doing so.
 
Rafin said:
I'm trying to think where the stereotype of female Elven warriors comes from. My first guess would have been Tolkien, like most modern Western fantasy stuff, but actually Tolkien didn't really mention much in the way of female Elven warriors at all. My own first acquaintance with it was WarCraft, but I very very much doubt them having been trend setters instead of trend followers in this regard.
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Jyn Ryvia said:
Probably 80s D&D or early computer RPGs (Or MUDs at the time)

While Tolkien was definitely the birth place of Modern western fantasy, MUDs were really the place that it all incubated and took shape before infecting the greater media and nerd culture. (Wizardry, Rouge and Ultima, Dragonstone etc etc.)

especially once a section of those collage nerds playing and making MUDs went out into the working world and started writing books, movies, art, games etc etc.
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It wouldn't surprise me if it was linked to Tolkien. Galadriel seems the obvious model for the Everqueen and similar characters, being a powerful, wise, magic user ruling her own kingdom. From htere I think it's a pretty short step to move from magical power to physical skill.

K von Carstein said:
I always wondered how Morathi prevents Malekith from creating his own magic school in Nagharond. He could absolutely teach sorceresses to be less dependent from his mother, but the fact that he doesn't makes me think she's preventing him from doing so.
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Ghrond is stupid rich, so she can just bribe everyone.
 
K von Carstein said:
I always wondered how Morathi prevents Malekith from creating his own magic school in Nagharond. He could absolutely teach sorceresses to be less dependent from his mother, but the fact that he doesn't makes me think she's preventing him from doing so.
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That he can teach them means she can't too demanding. But frankly, it's probably not even necessary. There would be plenty of sorceresses who are pissed at Morathi, or just fall afoul of faction politics. He can offer them patronage, and they'll probably be more loyal than if he'd taught them himself. Hell, maybe he gives some tutoring to particularly promising students.

Morathi and Malekith certainly don't agree on anything, and probably work against each other frequently, but my guess is that they overemphasise that in public. That way any opposition will be channeled to someone who is ultimately an ally and not a danger to the status quo.
 
K von Carstein said:
I always wondered how Morathi prevents Malekith from creating his own magic school in Nagharond. He could absolutely teach sorceresses to be less dependent from his mother, but the fact that he doesn't makes me think she's preventing him from doing so.
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For all we know, Malkieth and others sponsor other schools of magic that don't use sorcery, just regular Wind magic.
 
K von Carstein said:
I always wondered how Morathi prevents Malekith from creating his own magic school in Nagharond. He could absolutely teach sorceresses to be less dependent from his mother, but the fact that he doesn't makes me think she's preventing him from doing so.
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In my opinion, Malekith is the one preventing Malekith from teaching. From the point after Morathi murders his wife Allisara, he more or less completely refuses to teach or help anyone, even where it would be immensely to his advantage. He only takes, smashes, and destroys. The closest he comes to ever helping anyone anywhere in canon after that point is when he destroys any possibility of cooperation between Dark Elves and smashes any power center other than him or Morathi and then gets angry that this makes his people unable to organise and work together to face threats against their nation or achieve whatever his goal happens to be at the time, so he crushes and dominates them in the short term to face the threat (while discarding any who he breaks in the process) and then pits the survivors against each other and smashes any who try to cooperate with each other after the threat has passed.

Like, Morathi survives as the other major power center in Naggaroth in part because she is personally powerful enough that Malekith can't casually kill her and is also willing to teach (though she does also sabotage her students). Without her teaching people, Malekith would run out of Sorceresses because of his habit of casually killing all of his people who are useful and know things or have difficult to acquire or arcane skills, and becoming an Archmage takes a lot longer and requires a lot more teaching from people with a lot more knowledge than becoming a Lord of the Dreadfleet or a Beastmaster.

Anyway, the more I look at Naggaroth the more I think it does actually make more sense than people think (in that it doesn't require plot armour or deus ex machina to continue to exist), because it is a hell slave state that is also a piracy and plunder state, where the citizens are ~ unaging and have at least notional access to supernaturally good healthcare. And a state like that can support a very large and decadent aristocracy even with a high rate of intra elite murder as long as there are a few guardrails. And Morathi is a lot of those guardrails.

Edit: people -> citizens
 
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Mayto said:
Druchii woman meanwhile, should try to cheat, if only to assure their husband is keeping an eye on what they're doing/is capable of doing so.
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So in this "ideal" relationship, what does the capable husband who notices his wife's socially expected attempts at cheating do in response? Duel/assassinate/sabotage everyone who dares flirt back at her, presumably? Or scare his wife off her course repeatedly through family internal dominance displays (or worse)?

Sorry. I don't necessarily expect the book to have an answer. I am just curious what an answer might look like.

Mayto said:
Malus then describes that the ideal Druchii wife is apparently a housewife who practises a trade in peacetime, goes to war when it is time to invade Ulthuan again, and helps to poison and assassinate her husband's enemies.
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The ideal Druchii wife that an ambitious and self-centered Druchii man of good social standing hopes for? Because my understanding was that among Druchii, women often have leadership positions and end up as heads of households. So there's got to be at least some social norms as to how one is to be a proper husband to a career woman. At the very least the last line should be flipped as often as not, with good husbands helping to poison and assassinate their wife's rivals.

Then again, if I understand you correctly then this is Malus Darkblade's opinion.

And also I might be projecting my understanding of Drow/Dark Elf communities from other media onto the Druchii, with Druchii culture actually not being egalitarian or matriarchal outside of specific female-dominated organizations.
 
Rafin said:
And also I might be projecting my understanding of Drow/Dark Elf communities from other media onto the Druchii, with Druchii culture actually not being egalitarian or matriarchal outside of specific female-dominated organizations.
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Far as I know, the actual sourcebooks and army books don't portray Druchii as a female-dominated culture. Malekith is their eternal leader and he's a man. I don't know what the novels say, but Druchii society is supposed to be egalitarian with some exceptions for specific organisations with reasons given. For example, the reason the Witch Elves are exclusively women is because they are supposed to be the "Brides of Khaine", and Khaine is, presumably, heterosexual. As far as gods can be I suppose.

Sorceresses are the only ones allowed to practice magic (with some exceptions) is because Malekith is scared that a prophesised male Druchii would depose him. The Sisters of Slaughter aren't given too much elaboration, but afaik they're supposed to be part of a wiped out clan that worshipped Eldrazor and took revenge on the ones who almsot wiped them out, and then they began hosting colisseum battles for entertainment that high society liked.
 
I'm honestly surprised Malekith didn't try to go for the "kill every male Druchii at birth" option. The man is not exactly known for his restraint in, uh, any other aspect of his life.
 
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