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The fastest and easiest way to get knowledge on liminal security measures would be to involve Algard or Reiner Starke (maybe the Dean would also have this knowledge) with the liminal research. If Mathilde where to ask them for all the information they have on liminal defense they're unlikely to tell her anything, especially after telling them of her run in with a Big Bird. She'd be asking about the secrets of how the Grey College is defended after all! The only way to get these security secrets is to involve the Grey Order.

Liminal research and AV research are separate matters so it shouldn't detract from AV's big reveal. The only AV knowledge getting revealed would be it's existence and the creation of liminal realms. In fact I would say that letting out a glimpse of AV before the big reveal would incite some rumors and anticipation throughout the colleges, except we're giving the preview to those least likely to talk about it.
 
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We already have "Liminal Realms +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial" in our library. Knowledge on how to secure and defend them from outward intrusion should already be something we can access. Sure, Algard probably has a more intimate knowledge than what's available in the entirety of Imperial writings on the topic, but it's not like we're completely clueless. It's a shame the Eonir won't let us have their books on the topic, and I don't know if dwarves have any writings on the topic. Kragg seemed familiar with the concept, but that's Kragg.

I did however discover that the topic "Liminal Pathways" does exist. That might be useful.

The book category would be Liminal Pathways. Includes Worldroots, Beast-Paths, Fey Paths, Walking the Hedge, and the Impossible March of the Damned Soldier. Empire, Bretonnia, Eonir, Asrai, and presumably Asur.

... hmm, we should try to get book contacts in Bretonnia at some point. At the very least, that can add a few extra points to some common topics we use regularly.
 
We already have "Liminal Realms +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial" in our library. Knowledge on how to secure and defend them from outward intrusion should already be something we can access. Sure, Algard probably has a more intimate knowledge than what's available in the entirety of Imperial writings on the topic, but it's not like we're completely clueless. It's a shame the Eonir won't let us have their books on the topic, and I don't know if dwarves have any writings on the topic. Kragg seemed familiar with the concept, but that's Kragg.
The problem i see there is that the only liminal realm the empire has access to are ones made by Teclis, and those are probably also at least partially warded by Teclis. so how much security know-how they have is a big question.
 
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We already have "Liminal Realms +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial" in our library. Knowledge on how to secure and defend them from outward intrusion should already be something we can access. Sure, Algard probably has a more intimate knowledge than what's available in the entirety of Imperial writings on the topic, but it's not like we're completely clueless. It's a shame the Eonir won't let us have their books on the topic, and I don't know if dwarves have any writings on the topic. Kragg seemed familiar with the concept, but that's Kragg.

I did however discover that the topic "Liminal Pathways" does exist. That might be useful.



... hmm, we should try to get book contacts in Bretonnia at some point. At the very least, that can add a few extra points to some common topics we use regularly.
...if the Liminal Realm action is successful and it unlocks further actions like "Try to make a very small Liminal Pathway", I will scream and throw all my weight behind just writing the darn book already.
 
...if the Liminal Realm action is successful and it unlocks further actions like "Try to make a very small Liminal Pathway", I will scream and throw all my weight behind just writing the darn book already.
After a certain point, it might just turn into:

"And also, AV can be used to create Liminal Realms. For information about how that works, see my next book when it's complete!"

(We'd just have to make sure Mathilde doesn't turn into George R.R. Martin)
 
After a certain point, it might just turn into:

"And also, AV can be used to create Liminal Realms. For information about how that works, see my next book when it's complete!"

(We'd just have to make sure Mathilde doesn't turn into George R.R. Martin)
"Winds of win- i mean liminal realms and their uses was almost finished but then the wood elves (the other ones) kidnapped me and strapped me to a biiiiiiig tree."
 
The problem i see there is that the only liminal realm the empire has access to are ones made by Teclis, and those are probably also at least partially warded by Teclis. so how much security know-how they have is a big question.
The only one that the empire is making consistent use of, THAT WE KNOW of, but there's... a LOT of history to the empire and there have been weirdo one off wizards and random ass powers for a long long time. Whatever other liminal realms the books would cover probably aren't as Tame as the grey college but that doesn't mean there's no information about them.
 
The only one that the empire is making consistent use of, THAT WE KNOW of, but there's... a LOT of history to the empire and there have been weirdo one off wizards and random ass powers for a long long time. Whatever other liminal realms the books would cover probably aren't as Tame as the grey college but that doesn't mean there's no information about them.
Let's say it like this algard is the foremost expert in liminal realms, and has tried to creat one for at least the last 30 years? (Probably much longer) and hasn't managed it. If he hasn't then it's either locked to another wind (which i doubt) or impossible for mono winds to make them. so where would the security ideas come from? Algard might actually have speculated a bit about what would need to be done afterwards but he hasn't ever had enough success to try any of his theories.
 
2) See if the faction of Hedgewise Askel represents know anything
It'd be nice to be able to use the Father for an action asking for Hedgewise Deep Lore, but we've got so many important actions needing the Gambler I expect that's not likely to be an option.
If Mathilde where to ask them for all the information they have on liminal defense they're unlikely to tell her anything, especially after telling them of her run in with a Big Bird. She'd be asking about the secrets of how the Grey College is defended after all!
I'm fairly confident if we told Algard 'Hey, figured out a way to make potentially permanent liminal realms, any advice on keeping out demons so I don't get one being smug at me again?' he'd be willing to give us some help. While the grey college worships paranoia, being a Lord Magister gets you a lot of leeway.

One thing to note with RoW, I wonder if that getting to the imperial court would get people thinking invading Marienburg is viable? A way to transport soldiers across a huge marsh is a big step towards being able to negate Marienburg's main defensive terrain. I definitely want to codify it, but that's an interesting knock on effect that might come up.
 
My guess is that a lot of the ideas Alratan and others have had for "Mathilde seeking out information on how to secure liminal realms" will be encapsulated within the AP spent on the retry. "Hit your books and go ask some people who might have relevant info before trying again" seems like an obvious sort of thing for Mathilde to do, and the action of actually compressing the AV doesn't seem like it takes very long, so she has room in the schedule that the AP represents.

My chief concern is the fact that Boney said Mathilde would ideally want the Room of Calamity available for this; though "the middle of nowhere and space to run away" would also work, I just feel itchy about doing this without being able to slap the oh shit button. Gambler on it seems smart.
...I may need to revise my assumptions on how I thought codifying spells worked. I thought it would be mostly writing down and seeing if Mathilde can translate her own paradigm of spellcasting into general understanding, not trying to rework it.
I really don't think it'll be that dangerous; Boney confirmed that it's not something she would be doing in the Room of Calamity. At the very least, it will not be more dangerous than making the spell itself was, and we felt OK enough about that to not even Gambler it the last turn we were doing so.
 
One thing to note with RoW, I wonder if that getting to the imperial court would get people thinking invading Marienburg is viable? A way to transport soldiers across a huge marsh is a big step towards being able to negate Marienburg's main defensive terrain. I definitely want to codify it, but that's an interesting knock on effect that might come up.
Hmm, despite it being horrible in a lot of ways (general life loss, important character death, weakening of Order when there's an upcoming everchosen, AP hell, etc), a War on Marienburg arc would be real interesting. Would rather have it happen after we conclude the Waystone project, if ever at all.
 
I'm kinda reluctant at making the morbs in the room at all.
I have the suspicion that detonating large amounts of demon-snake-blood will create an exploitable "dimensional pinhole" by the big-bird waiting on the other side.

.. tldr: big birb might snatch our morbs!
 
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Hmm, despite it being horrible in a lot of ways (general life loss, important character death, weakening of Order when there's an upcoming everchosen, AP hell, etc), a War on Marienburg arc would be real interesting. Would rather have it happen after we conclude the Waystone project, if ever at all.
Oh, it'd definitely be really interesting. I'm, not 100% on how wizards and the military interact, I kinda doubt every Lord Magister drops all their projects every time a big Waaagh shows up on one of the Empire's borders or something, so we'd *probably* have some input on whether and how we got involved? Hm. If we did get involved, I'm curious if the thread would be more reluctant to pull Mathilde's patented, 'sneak into the enemy stronghold and start killing their leaders and daring the rest to try and kill her while causing Maximum Mayhem before disappearing into the night' method against normal humans that are just from a different polity instead of chaos cultists or Always Chaotic Evil races. Has Mathilde even killed a human that wasn't some degree of cultist/necromancer/vampire thrall before? Some of the people with the Conspiracy way back when were rather borderline maybe? Hm.
 
I did think that if we had the Gambler on the squish AV action, the result of a Tzeentch Daemon trying to enter would have been met by Ranald going 'no' and that would have been the end of that.
 
...if the Liminal Realm action is successful and it unlocks further actions like "Try to make a very small Liminal Pathway", I will scream and throw all my weight behind just writing the darn book already.
I think anything beyond the basics is probably beyond the scope of the AV book. It just needs to include enough to make the liminal realm usable, so that readers following along don't invite bird daemons to lie at them.
 
Has Mathilde even killed a human that wasn't some degree of cultist/necromancer/vampire thrall before? Some of the people with the Conspiracy way back when were rather borderline maybe? Hm.
I was going to suggest the former Count Von Stolpe, but while the section doesn't outright say it, it all but explicitly stated he was in Countess von Carstein's pocket, probably via the Stirlandian League.
 
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I'm pretty sure she scrapped the version of the ritual that had the language change in favor of having another go at an earlier version.

I know you're not the first to mention this possibility, but that's not actually an option. You're stuck with wherever the ritual goes unless you start over from scratch, and that takes a bunch of extra time to create a new first draft, and the first round of research is the most difficult and the most likely to result in problematic complications.

On the Laurelorn side, would we have to go to the Queen, or is there a group developing that is taking care of foreign affairs we could go to? They were very isolationist until recently so I'm not sure if there would be anything besides the ones talking with Middenland, but the Druchi got in contact somehow.

Mathilde has learned that they do consider themselves the legitimate inheritor to the Elthin Arvan, a political union which once included Athel Loren, which at the time were a mostly normal Elven research outpost on the outskirts of the woods who were trying to reconcile the bizarre and hellish forests they had found with the wondrous realm of harmony and magic and wisdom that Avelorn's history spoke of. And before that, both were chiefly Avelornian research outposts that both reported to the Everqueen. During the War of Vengeance they were cut off from each other, and while the Eonir found salvation at the hands of an agreement freely entered into with their own Grey Lords, the Asrai found it by surrendering to the influence of the Daemon-Woods. If the two polities claimed any kinship at all, it would necessarily involve claiming authority over each other, with the Eonir reminding the Asrai that they once swore fealty to the Eleventh Kingdom that Tor Lithanel is the capital of, and the Asrai insisting that as Athel Loren is the foremost of forests that Laurelorn is lesser to, and insisting that they have greater insight to Isha, who the Eonir claim to revere, and to Kurnous, that the Eonir have sidelined in favour of Asuryan - more proof that they are unworthy stewards of the forests they rule over.

For Athel Loren, Does the Empire or the Colleges have a better way of getting in contact with them than just walking into the forest? Is there an expert we could go to that Matilde already knows about?

Normal procedure would be to not contact them at all. The closest the Empire has to an expert would be to ask Quenelles or Karak Norn.

Has Mathilde even killed a human that wasn't some degree of cultist/necromancer/vampire thrall before? Some of the people with the Conspiracy way back when were rather borderline maybe? Hm.

As a wise man once said, she ain't never crossed a man that didn't deserve it.
 
Did a spit-take at the Coolio reference.
Coolio, in turn, was referencing a quote (dubiously) attributed to several Old West gunfighters- that they "never killed a man that didn't need killing.", or something to that effect. (Clay Allison, John Wesley Hardin, and Jeff Milton, off the top of my head and the first page of Google; almost certainly more.)
 
My guess is that a lot of the ideas Alratan and others have had for "Mathilde seeking out information on how to secure liminal realms" will be encapsulated within the AP spent on the retry. "Hit your books and go ask some people who might have relevant info before trying again" seems like an obvious sort of thing for Mathilde to do, and the action of actually compressing the AV doesn't seem like it takes very long, so she has room in the schedule that the AP represents.

My chief concern is the fact that Boney said Mathilde would ideally want the Room of Calamity available for this; though "the middle of nowhere and space to run away" would also work, I just feel itchy about doing this without being able to slap the oh shit button. Gambler on it seems smart.
As much as saying so puts an opportunity cost in the way of something I really want to do...

Honestly, I can still see this one going either way,
I can see it being something so simple that it might have made itself apparent to Mathilde with just a lucky role but even so, research in this quest tends to take a lot of investment. I can see why a lot of thoughts on the matter is that such an action would be largely composed of going over every use of a liminal realm Mathilde can find just because of how many places there are to look. Of which there's quite a few.

Laurelorn's populace and it's Grey Lords in particular, The Hedge and its Folk, The Forest of Shadows, The Grey College, Algard, every work writings on liminal realms and magics that deal with the border of reality, what little the Gunnars and Dwarves have entrusted us with... (Grey and Hedgefolk stuff coming up often enough that I'm curious if the coin of the Father could help both from Aksel on the Forest of Shadows, the Hedge and the role of the two, assuming any difference, in the magic of the Hedgefolk and also and from those Grey Magister Lords a la Walther Kupfer, who also acknowledge Halétha.)

...That being said, just from that list, I suspect the most common answer to "How do you protect a liminal realm?" could be something like "Put something intelligent and aware in charge of it." Ancestor gods, forest spirits, the goddess Halétha... Even the souls of a very mortal organization that simply uses it in bulk.

The latter would even help explain Vlag to a degree: If the souls of some sixteen- to twenty-thousand Dawi were maintaining the bubble of realness by locally outweighing the Chaos without.

Well, speculation aside, the point remains that there's a lot of potential advice to seek on the matter. Especially if Mathilde ends up taking Kragg's words from last update into advisement, and goes about making sure she has a solid grasp on the theory before mucking about with the practicals. At the very least it limits the amount of literal and metaphysical real estate Mathilde is tanking the value of by setting off magical gunfire and artisinal accidents near.
 
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Thinking about Boney saying that creating a ritual takes 8 or more AP, I wonder if we'll have final results for tributaries this turn. If not, I could see the different practitionners continuing on their own for the next turns and either being unavailable or less available for actions during next turns. Although I guess we might have to spend our own AP to continue working on tributaries if they aren't finished.
 
Well if an intelligence is required to truly secure a liminal realm, it probably is needed, then Mathilde could turn to apparitions (or Ranald but that's just asking for it to be stolen away), specifically the Handmaiden. The Handmaiden already has a connection to the liminal with them always appearing from doorways, windows, and other portals. Having them guard a liminal realm would see them use their awareness of such as a way to detect intrusions and could then activate any prepared defenses. In fact the Handmaidens are attracted to spells of fortune and transmutation, types of spells that I feel would be used to break into a liminal realm.

So to secure a liminal realm you need defenses and an intelligence to make use of those defenses.
 
Thinking about Boney saying that creating a ritual takes 8 or more AP, I wonder if we'll have final results for tributaries this turn. If not, I could see the different practitionners continuing on their own for the next turns and either being unavailable or less available for actions during next turns. Although I guess we might have to spend our own AP to continue working on tributaries if they aren't finished.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that:
  1. Every single person on the project has 6 AP all of their own each turn and they are the ones doing the heavy lifting on the rituals
  2. We are not actually making the thing from scratch, instead we are trying to adept an old Belthani working
 
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