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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Dheer said:
Primarily because of the fact that not only was vampirism designed to preserve the existence of the person who become a vampire mentally and also because them dying in the process and being a homunculus who thinks they are the same person renders the whole effort pointless and also incredibly arbitrary? And lastly the transformation of the soul does not equal to the person ceasing unless you wish to argue Elseiph for instance ceased to exist as the person she is because of her close relationship with Shyish.
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Whether it actually kills them or resets their soul or whatever else doesn't particularly matter. This is how it's seen in setting by characters. It's not going to change because killing the evil monster that's wearing the body of your friend Bill is easier than killing your friend Bill who has decided of his own will to start eating people. People aren't going to accept that the person they knew is still in control because vampires murder and eat people.
 
adaer said:
Whether it actually kills them or resets their soul or whatever else doesn't particularly matter. This is how it's seen in setting by characters. It's not going to change because killing the evil monster that's wearing the body of your friend Bill is easier than killing your friend Bill who has decided of his own will to start eating people. People aren't going to accept that the person they knew is still in control because vampires murder and eat people.
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People is a very wide net you are casting here. Which people? The wider consensus of the Empire? Sure they are not going to accept it because they have it as a point of dogma that vampires are corpses inhabited by daemons. That also happens to be wrong and stupid.

But let's take this to the people we actually care about:

Belegar?

Well he has likely never encountered a vampire as more than an abstract evil in his life so he is probably going to look for verification, ask Kragg maybe. Judging by the fact that dwarfs used to have diplomatic relations with vampires, back when they knew they were all corpses, Nehekara was dead at this point, and only stopped because the vampires were treacherous bastards. Seeing as it would be possible for Non-Underempire Skaven to not have grudges on their heads it should be possible for a vampire with no aligeance to any of the Bloodlines to be accepted by dwarfs.

Heidi?

What does Ranald tell her about it? If he confirms that yep than is Mathilde then she will likely take him at his word.

Regimand?

What do we look like under mage sight and what college books on vampires are there out there.

And on it goes, the actual truth does matter in the case of Vampire Mathilde because we are not surrounded by superstitious peasants, but by people with vast resources and a capacity to check even esoteric insights if pressed
 
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DragonParadox said:
And on it goes, the actual truth does matter in the case of Vampire Mathilde because we are not surrounded by superstitious peasants, but by people with vast resources and a capacity to check even esoteric insights if pressed
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Under mage sight we look like a vampire, and legally speaking (in the Empire) vampires are not allowed to live, nor is knowingly aiding them allowed. There are vampires that are known of and not currently being opposed, but they all seem to be versions of "they aren't causing a problem right now and are too hard to kill; put them at the bottom of the to kill list" which means they just never get to them.

Belegar might give us a chance unless Gunnars/the guardians official stance is that vampires aren't still the same person they were, at which point vampire Mathilde might get a personal grudging from him for daring to defile his dear friend's memory. Heidi would probably go for it if Ranald was cool with us, I agree. I'm pretty sure Imperial wizards would be oath-bound to oppose us, and while maybe Pan or Johann would break those oaths to give us a chance, Algard definitely wouldn't. He'd be directly risking the standing of the entire college. I'd guess our Stirland friends would fall on the "fuck vampires" side of things as a rule.

The reason I say it doesn't matter what the truth is is that the non-vampire fundamentally cannot trust the vampire to tell the truth about whether they're still the same person. Either way, they're going to go "of course I'm still me!" Heidi's method is the only one that could I could see being trusted and I'm not sure anyone but her and a few priests know we're so close to Ranald that he'd answer. Other people know we follow him, but not the extent of it, IIRC.

Aranfan said:
All this said, I kinda love the idea of a Vampire Slayer. Mohawk and everything.
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It'd be especially tragic with Mathilde because she's noted that she hates the very idea of the waste of people and knowledge that slayers represent. It'd be a hell of a statement though.
 
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Magda the Vampire Slayer
  • Apocrypha
    • Aranfan said:
    All this said, I kinda love the idea of a Vampire Slayer. Mohawk and everything.
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    Sooo, you're saying...
    Back cover blurb on a bloodstained copy of Magda the Vampire Slayer laying amidst discarded clothing, strewn across an opulent bedroom glittering with silver:

    TRAGEDY has struck! Letting down her guard in an idle moment of FANCY, acclaimed heroine MAGDA WESSEN has been afflicted by the DARK CURSE of the VAMPIRE. The only way to FREE herself of the curse is to SLAY her progenitor, the beautiful and deadly SILVER LADY of the PINNACLE. With DARK BLOOD coursing through her veins, Magda swears an Oath to end the evil bloodline of Vampires, before her SOUL is lost forever!

    Magda dares not reveal her plight even to BOON COMPANIONS and ALLIES accumulated over a storied career- Gilded Jürgen, kind Constance, suave von Heartsmann, bold Rosamund, sylvan Cæurth, noble King Belegor. Is Magda safe around them any more... and are they safe from her? As she struggles with the DARKNESS WITHIN, a handsome, BROODING STRANGER offers help to decode the VAMPIRIC SECRETS Magda recovered from the ruins of Drakenschloss. Uncertain where she stands, while BUFFING herself for the VAMPIRE SLAYING ahead, Magda faces perhaps her greatest challenge yet.

    Can her PURE HEART resist the DARK CALL OF BLOOD? Will she SUCCUMB TO TEMPTATION, or remain strong? And can her SHADOW MASTERY, MIGHTY MHORNBLADE, and VAMPIRIC PUISSANCE see her through the dangers ahead, in her quest to conquer the SILVER LADY?
     
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  • Apocrypha
    • Did we ever end up reading all the spooky books we looted from the rubble of Drakenhof, or did we not have time in our schedules yet?
     
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    So High Nehekharn is so specific necromancers only use it for specific spells and rituals. Also it is for Forbidden in Araby except for specific scholars to learn.
     
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    Nurgle said:
    Also it is for Eddie in Araby except for specific scholars.
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    Is that a typo of forbidden?

    Boney said we can learn it in the Colleges.
    Boney said:
    Mathilde can find tutors through the University of Altdorf for Sylvanian, Classical, Tilean, Estalian, Arabyan, Breton, Mootish, Kislevarin, Indie, Cathayan, Nipponese, Norse and Wastelander, which has an arrangement with the Colleges so you can spend College favour there. Tar-Eltharin, Fan-Eltharin, Druhir, Orcish, Grumbarth, Dark Tongue, and High Nehekharan can be learned through the Colleges directly. You might be able to find a Low Nehekharan tutor in Araby. Myrmidian Battle Tongue and Thieves Tongue through the right Priests.
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    Mopman43 said:
    Is that a typo of forbidden?

    Boney said we can learn it in the Colleges.
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    Changed it typo on my mobile. But yes we can learn it in the empire. May be suspicious because it is only learned by scholars and is very specific. Also apparently the written form is hieroglyphs and hard for old world sees to learn. But Mathilde has a trait for learning languages.
     
    High Nehekharan is probably being taught for the reasons we'd intend to employ it; deciphering random vampire scribbles so we can tell the difference between sandwich recipes and evil wizard spells. We're kind of a famous hand at vampire slaying, and a workaholic whose idea of a vacation is to go do someone else's job for them, so it wouldn't exactly be breaking any of our existing patterns to pick it up.

    Plus, it'd be useful to know if we ever wanted to talk to any of the Tomb Kings. I think the Empire sometimes interacts with them peacefully?
     
    Nurgle said:
    Changed it typo on my mobile. But yes we can learn it in the empire. May be suspicious because it is only learned by scholars and is very specific. Also apparently the written form is hieroglyphs and hard for old world sees to learn. But Mathilde has a trait for learning languages.
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    chocolote12 said:
    High Nehekharan is probably being taught for the reasons we'd intend to employ it; deciphering random vampire scribbles so we can tell the difference between sandwich recipes and evil wizard spells. We're kind of a famous hand at vampire slaying, and a workaholic whose idea of a vacation is to go do someone else's job for them, so it wouldn't exactly be breaking any of our existing patterns to pick it up.

    Plus, it'd be useful to know if we ever wanted to talk to any of the Tomb Kings. I think the Empire sometimes interacts with them peacefully?
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    Mathilde does have a ready-made excuse for learning High Nehekharan: She might interact with Tomb Kings in the process of asking around for the Nehekharan network, so obviously she should learn it in preparation of that.
     
    chocolote12 said:
    Plus, it'd be useful to know if we ever wanted to talk to any of the Tomb Kings. I think the Empire sometimes interacts with them peacefully?
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    Mostly it interacts with them violently, though that could still be a reason to know it.

    The 8th edition TK timeline lists a few times that the two fought (Empire attacking TK cities for loot, TK attacking Empire cities to get the loot back/in retaliation, etc)

    Arkhan the Black hit Altdorf in 2450 looking for lore, the Necrotect Ramhotep the Visionary attacked Ubersreik (naturally) and Grunburg some time in the 2300s (the Steam Tank Deliverance smashed his Terracotta Wall in 2141 while an army from Reikland was raiding Quatar)

    There's a time or two recorded where individuals managed to peacefully talk with Tomb Kings, but I'm not aware of any listed time that the Empire or a polity there-in conducted actual diplomacy with a Tomb King, or that they fought together in a battle or similar. I think most people in the Empire tend to see the Tomb Kings as just as much abominations as any other undead, just ones that are less likely to go abroad and have cities like loot piñatas.
     
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    The Empire had an Egyptomania-equivalent period where it went nuts for Nehekharan stuff until a whole bunch of chickens came home to roost and Altdorf alone got besieged like three separate times by cranky mummies. Though most of the museums got levelled in the end, the Empire still retains a lot of information about High Nehekharan culture and writing that Araby wasn't stupid enough to go looking for in the first place.
     
    So, the Empire has knowledge of High Nehekaran but not Low Nehekaran culture/language from looting a bunch of tombs and temples and monuments while ignoring the commoner stuff that wasn't shiny enough, while Araby is the other way around due to cultural osmosis from geographical proximity and being too smart to touch the mummy gold, right?

    Speaking of Empire scholarship, I still find it crazy that they teach a bunch of languages from places that haven't opened proper peaceful contact for centuries (ie Athel Loren, Naggaroth), or only Dragomas-type people are brave and competent enough to reach in the first place (ie Cathay, Ind, Nippon).
     
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    Pretty much. Araby has a long history with Nehekhara, including contributing forces to the Army of Seven Kings that overthrew Nagash the first time, and knows enough about them to mostly coexist with them even in their transformed state.
     
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    adaer said:
    Under mage sight we look like a vampire, and legally speaking (in the Empire) vampires are not allowed to live, nor is knowingly aiding them allowed. There are vampires that are known of and not currently being opposed, but they all seem to be versions of "they aren't causing a problem right now and are too hard to kill; put them at the bottom of the to kill list" which means they just never get to them.

    Belegar might give us a chance unless Gunnars/the guardians official stance is that vampires aren't still the same person they were, at which point vampire Mathilde might get a personal grudging from him for daring to defile his dear friend's memory. Heidi would probably go for it if Ranald was cool with us, I agree. I'm pretty sure Imperial wizards would be oath-bound to oppose us, and while maybe Pan or Johann would break those oaths to give us a chance, Algard definitely wouldn't. He'd be directly risking the standing of the entire college. I'd guess our Stirland friends would fall on the "fuck vampires" side of things as a rule.

    The reason I say it doesn't matter what the truth is is that the non-vampire fundamentally cannot trust the vampire to tell the truth about whether they're still the same person. Either way, they're going to go "of course I'm still me!" Heidi's method is the only one that could I could see being trusted and I'm not sure anyone but her and a few priests know we're so close to Ranald that he'd answer. Other people know we follow him, but not the extent of it, IIRC.


    It'd be especially tragic with Mathilde because she's noted that she hates the very idea of the waste of people and knowledge that slayers represent. It'd be a hell of a statement though.
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    The argument does not stand up because it is cyclical, you have taken it as a given that all people believe that vampires are not the same person they were before they turned when that is not the general opinion in all the Old World, that is just a common belief among the populace in the empire.

    Just because I am curious though @Boney what do the dwarf books we have on vampires have to say about their 'continuity of existence'? I am assuming they do not go with the possessed by a demon version, but to be fair that is an assumption on my part as well.
     
    Boney said:
    They don't really pay any attention to the matter. Human souls are outside of their jurisdiction.
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    So it would be fair to say that the base assumption is 'still the same person but now aligned with a grudged faction by unknown possibility magical means'? That would still be a very hard test to pass since the vampire would have to prove that not only are they not willingly aligned with their bloodline, but that they cannot be compelled into it, but it's not as hard as 'it's all demons'.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    So it would be fair to say that the base assumption is 'still the same person but now aligned with a grudged faction by unknown possibility magical means'? That would still be a very hard test to pass since the vampire would have to prove that not only are they not willingly aligned with their bloodline, but that they cannot be compelled into it, but it's not as hard as 'it's all demons'.
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    The Dwarves have no base assumption about the nature of a Vampire's mind or soul. What they have is three thousand years of Vampiric atrocities that you have to wade through since the last time they had any interaction with a Vampire that wasn't actively hostile to the Karaz Ankor.
     
    Isn't there a city of living humans ruled by a Tomb King somewhere on the southern border of Nehekhara and Araby?

    If so, they may be the most approachable.
     
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