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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Dheer said:
So, you are saying that the immediate response towards finding out Mathilde got turned into a vampire is to immediately murder her and not even attempt talking with her whatsoever. That not a single one of her connections will not attempt to even talk to her in the first place such as Cython, Horstman, Belegar, Johann or even Paranomia, to at least investigate and find out what the hell happened to her or at best get a cooperative force to which they can research the condition known as vampirism with a willing subject which is known for their extreme acts of loyalty and the actions of the individual to help and go for immediate hostile action? That seems to be counterproductive.
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There are tons of examples of evil wearing familiar faces. Even for the most logical person, when it comes to vampires, I'd say most would shoot first
 
Dragonofelder said:
There are tons of examples of evil wearing familiar faces. Even for the most logical person, when it comes to vampires, I'd say most would shoot first
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Cython and the We would probably talk to us though, he doesn't have anything against vamps, and through them, Belegar could be convinced. And Belegar can convince the rest of the Karaz Ankor, at which point the empire has no choice but to accept things.

Not to mention the elves of Laurelorn are already working with Durchii so a vamp wouldn't even raise eyebrows, heck they might prefer it because we'd be able to work on a similar timescale.

We may lose our College favor doing it though, and maybe have to fight our own wizards for a while to prevent assassinations
 
Dheer said:
So, you are saying that the immediate response towards finding out Mathilde got turned into a vampire is to immediately murder her and not even attempt talking with her whatsoever. That not a single one of her connections will not attempt to even talk to her in the first place such as Cython, Horstman, Belegar, Johann or even Paranomia, to at least investigate and find out what the hell happened to her or at best get a cooperative force to which they can research the condition known as vampirism with a willing subject which is known for their extreme acts of loyalty and the actions of the individual to help and go for immediate hostile action? That seems to be counterproductive.
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Yes, thats kind of how vampire subversion works.
 
Cython is probably immoral and uncaring enough that he would be willing to continue some sort of relationship, but literally no one else we know is. And Cython isn't really interested in studying vampirism or leaving eight peaks, which means he's probably useless to vampire Mathilde.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
I wonder- if Mathilde turns into a vampire while wearing her Belt, would the dhar vortex that is now her soul immediately catch fire?
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Current Hypothesis is that Valaya can control the rune on the belt (because it's Her Rune), and if we ever decide to use it for something She Disproves of, She will make it work in the way most detrimental to us.

That's the only justification we've been able to come up with so far for why Kragg gave a relatively unknown wizard the Rune of Making Dark Magic Safe.

So yes, it's potentially likely that Valaya may try to set our soul on fire if She thinks we're dishonouring Her.
 
Verthack said:
Eh, worst case scenario we have to take back another hold, besides, in this case, we'd be the first dwarf vampire and there's no precedent on that, who knows how a Dawi soul reacts to the blood kiss.
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There's this WoB.

Boney said:
All of the known Bloodlines are treated as polities for Grudge purposes, and all of them have plenty.
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Which would suggest that, at minimum, Vampire Mathilde would have to clear up the outstanding Grudges her bloodline has. The quickest option I see for that would be going after every single extant vampire of that bloodline.
 
pucflek said:
Yes, thats kind of how vampire subversion works.
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So are you saying, that the continuous efforts of Nefferata to ensure the loyalty of her lahmians, the efforts of other vampires to cultivate loyalty and obedience are something utterless pointless as apparently being turned into a vampire makes you completely lose all your allegiances and be completely loyal them.

Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Current Hypothesis is that Valaya can control the rune on the belt (because it's Her Rune), and if we ever decide to use it for something She Disproves of, She will make it work in the way most detrimental to us.

That's the only justification we've been able to come up with so far for why Kragg gave a relatively unknown wizard the Rune of Making Dark Magic Safe.

So yes, it's potentially likely that Valaya may try to set our soul on fire if She thinks we're dishonouring Her.
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And as for this, that argument continuously ignores the fact that Kragg the maker of the belt only gave to her because of the following reasons and the fact that he is in range of Kragg. If Valaya was capable of doing that, he would not be as precautious as he is with it.

Boney said:
Mathilde got the Belt after allowing for the clearance of some pretty hefty Grudges, displaying valour and competence in front of Dwarves, joining a second project important to the Karaz Ankor, and perhaps most critically of all, when she was going to be within hammer range of Kragg for the foreseeable future. Eike is not going to be ticking those boxes any time soon.
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The bloodlines whose founders ran to the Far East are probably grudge-less.

I also suspect that a vampire could subsist on AV, but I'm not sure that we'd want to test the interaction between AV and vampire skulls.
 
Dheer said:
So, you are saying that the immediate response towards finding out Mathilde got turned into a vampire is to immediately murder her and not even attempt talking with her whatsoever. That not a single one of her connections will not attempt to even talk to her in the first place such as Cython, Horstman, Belegar, Johann or even Paranomia, to at least investigate and find out what the hell happened to her or at best get a cooperative force to which they can research the condition known as vampirism with a willing subject which is known for their extreme acts of loyalty and the actions of the individual to help and go for immediate hostile action? That seems to be counterproductive.
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Yes. I doubt Mathilde would be the only loyal subject to be turned in all of the Empire ´s history, or even the Colleges'. And the Empire's policy is still « kill them on sight ». Vampires are unliving, talking vortexes of Dhar and undead abominations. The Articles are very clear about what to do about those things.

Imagine what the Sigmarites, Morrites and the general populace would think if they ever learn that the Colleges didn't immediately put down such a monster? No Patriarch would take such a risk.
 
Neferata's better at dueling because while she might be lacking in brute physical strength as a Strigoi or a Blood Knight, she's unbelievably fast. It's not an exaggeration to say speed is a dealbreaker that makes someone win a duel when you're talking someone who can slit your throat in the blink of an eye. She also debuffs literally anyone who tries to attack her, because her charm is just that strong.

Well, the only one she can't charm is her cousin Khalida, who is a Tomb Queen blessed by Asaph the Goddess of Magic and possesses a burning hatred of her. Otherwise, Neferata combines ridiculous speed with powerful enchantments and the skill that comes from being the oldest Vampire who has never been "killed". Seriously, Abhorash is doing god knows what, Ushoran was killed by Orcs, W'soran was taken down by his disciple, Vlad was killed several times and Luthor's psyche was blasted by Old One magic. She is quite literally the only Progenitor still around in any genuine manner.

Neferata has weaknesses, but dueling isn't one of them.
 
Codex said:
None that wouldn't take decades building forces and population to actually have any hope of retaking it. K8P has taken most of the Karaz Ankor's spare resources and even then it's still barely considered stable by Dwarven standards, and that's thanks to all the humans and halflings. There are some smaller ones, but that's what Thorgrim is doing. All the resources available are being mustered for the Silverspear expedition, which is taking at least a decade to take off.

I'm just guessing, but after Silverspear and Mad Dog Pass are secured, the next goal would likely be Mount Gunbad, because it neighbours Silverspear and therefore an obstacle to trade. After that I can see allocating resources to Karak Kadrin to clear out the Greenskins on the eastern end of Peak Pass. And these are the smaller ones. Taking back something major like Karak Ungor or Karak Drazh would be such an undertaking that I'd imagine it'd take a century to muster enough force to occupy it.
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In many cases even if Mathilde could wave her hand and make all the enemies in captured Karaks disappear trying to hold those Karaks with the available dwarfpower wouldn't actually make any sense. The Silverspear expedition has clear economic reasons. If the Dwarfs hold all the passes then they complete a set bonus which makes them ungodly huge amounts of money.

But say capturing black Kragg next to K8P isn't really helpful in the same way. The would cost more to hold then they provide.

Really if the Dwarfs were going by pure economics they would likely sell off some of their existing Karaks to friendly nations to better concentrate their numbers. If they did that then they could have friendly nations on all sides.
 
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fictionfan said:
In many case even if Mathilde could wave her hand and make all the enemies in captured Karaks disappear trying to hold those Karaks with the available dwarfpower wouldn't actually make any sense. The Silverspear expedition has clear economic reasons. If the Dwarfs hold all the passes then they a set bonus which makes them ungodly huge amounts of money.

By say capturing black Kragg next to K8P isn't really helpful in the same way. The would cost more to hold them they provide.

Really if the Dwarfs were going by pure economics they would likely sell off some of their existing Kragg to friendly nations to better concentrate their numbers.
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Mount Gunbad might have similar profit potential. At least according to Stone and Steel (1st edition RP), it had the richest mines in the Karaz Ankor. And it was the only source of a particular gem called Brightstone.

(I'd use a more recent source, but I don't think there is one, barring Total Warhammer)
 
I'm pretty sure we went down this road before, and IIRC, the answer to dwarfs and vamps is that they have a grudge against them in general, but in theory a singular individual that hasn't directly harmed them could be dealt with, it's just that it hasn't really happened.

So Mathilde's super dwarf friend status would pose an interesting conundrum, and Belegar would probably be cool with it because it's Belegar.

At least that's what I recall.
 
Dheer said:
So are you saying, that the continuous efforts of Nefferata to ensure the loyalty of her lahmians, the efforts of other vampires to cultivate loyalty and obedience are something utterless pointless as apparently being turned into a vampire makes you completely lose all your allegiances and be completely loyal them.
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No, but it makes you lose any benefit of a doubt you could possibly have with anyone that has tangentially been wronged by vampires. So uhh. Yeah. Cython and The We would not give a shit, the Elves might be open, but they are considerably smaller part of our acquitances than Imperials and Dwarfs, and with those, that bridge is burned.

Its not that Mathilde would fundamentally change her loyalties (maybe she would, fuckall knows how does vampirism works, but i doubt it), its that noone would give her the chance.
 
Valmond said:
Karaz Ankor Waystone Network was built by runesmiths who would consider Kragg an apprentice, or at most a journeyman, not a master.
The assumption that surely we can just improve upon it now, is not really something that a dawi would ever have without some serious prompting.
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Honestly, even the idea that we could figure out how to unstop the drains so the basement would quit flooding probably seemed ludicrously optimistic.
 
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