Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Sir_Travelsalot]

Isn't it strange that Neferata is better at dueling than Vlad? She isn't really known for her fighting prowess.

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It isn't really that strange when you consider that the first of Vlad's deaths during the First Vampire War was a kneeling Empire General jumping up, grabbing a sword and chopping his head off while he stood there, mid-recruitment pitch. And the last death was getting rugby tackled off of the walls of Altdorf by the Grand Theogonist because he genuinely couldn't comprehend a human going for the sacrifice play.

Absent his sword and his ring, Vlad has kind of an atrocious dueling record.

 

[Parabola]

Neferata's better at dueling because while she might be lacking in brute physical strength as a Strigoi or a Blood Knight, she's unbelievably fast. It's not an exaggeration to say speed is a dealbreaker that makes someone win a duel when you're talking someone who can slit your throat in the blink of an eye. She also debuffs literally anyone who tries to attack her, because her charm is just that strong.

Well, the only one she can't charm is her cousin Khalida, who is a Tomb Queen blessed by Asaph the Goddess of Magic and possesses a burning hatred of her. Otherwise, Neferata combines ridiculous speed with powerful enchantments and the skill that comes from being the oldest Vampire who has never been "killed". Seriously, Abhorash is doing god knows what, Ushoran was killed by Orcs, W'soran was taken down by his disciple, Vlad was killed several times and Luthor's psyche was blasted by Old One magic. She is quite literally the only Progenitor still around in any genuine manner.

Neferata has weaknesses, but dueling isn't one of them.

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I'm told that Abhorash has a King Asleep In The Mountain thing going on where after killing his dragon he decided to just meditate in its cave, but I don't actually know whether he has otherwise been killed before or not.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Thorgrim is not wrong for needing a literal message from his literal Gods to pop up on his HUD to realize that the rules of his universe changed 313 threadmarks ago.

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That moron should be reading the thread. Thats Tzeench's strategy and its working.

 

[Verthack]

I'm pretty sure we went down this road before, and IIRC, the answer to dwarfs and vamps is that they have a grudge against them in general, but in theory a singular individual that hasn't directly harmed them could be dealt with, it's just that it hasn't really happened.

So Mathilde's super dwarf friend status would pose an interesting conundrum, and Belegar would probably be cool with it because it's Belegar.

At least that's what I recall.

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The real question of course is what would Belegar!Quest's reaction would be when moneyB drops that bombshell on them.

 

[Exmorri]

Old linguistics joke: the difference between a language and a dialect is that languages have an army.

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Norway is kind of a meta-joke here, having one army but two languages that are both called "Norwegian".

(Norwegian-Bokmål would be a colonial dialect of Danish if it weren't for the army, Norwegian-Nynorsk was created by anti-Danish reactionaries stitching together every backwoods redneck dialect they could find. The Norwegian language situation is a multilevel joke: the Norwegian Parliament tried to create a compromise standard called Norwegian-Samnorsk and encourage everyone to speak that. This was a highly unpopular move, but until officially repealed in 2002 it was, sorta technically, an obscure third "Norwegian" language.)

 

[King Arthur]

I mean, obviously, this is assuming that anyone learned that we were a vampire.

Assuming we could convince Ranald that we were still cool, I mean, Mathilde's a pretty good liar in general, but combined with that necklace ..... as long as no one sees us drinking blood, we should be fine, and that's what all of those dragons are for and we already know where a couple are.

No, seriously. Absurd healing? Got an artifact for that already, people are used to us just walking off wounds that should kill a person. The sun? We already wear a hat which, if we combine with these three things

Mantle of Mist: Visible vapours are drawn to you. Fog and mist makes it easier to hide; smoke and gases are rather less convenient. +1 Intrigue, potential trouble with any gas-based weapons.
Shrouded: Shadows you are in grow deeper and cling more tightly to you. +2 Intrigue.
Unnatural Shadow: Your shadow has a mind of its own, moving around to inspect its surroundings and coil around things and people it takes a liking to. This is, needless to say, very unnerving.

after improving those three things to do keep us shrouded in fog/mist/darkness at all times, we could dodge the sun forever. If we aren't wearing gloves already, just get those, and bam, safe.

Mirror's? Mattie probably already dodges those out of habit from the Asp thing that she had for half her life, and the shroud of mist/fog/darkness might keep us safe from those anyway.

Sigmar stuff? We already avoid touching his stuff.

We could absolutely hide the fact that we are a vampire from pretty much everyone, for pretty much ever.

Not saying we want to become a vampire, but it's not a game ender for our social stuff.

......

Pan might notice that our body has gotten cold. Genuinely the only major obstacle, outside of drinking a dragon and maybe the Ranald thing.

 

[Codex]

I'm told that Abhorash has a King Asleep In The Mountain thing going on where after killing his dragon he decided to just meditate in its cave, but I don't actually know whether he has otherwise been killed before or not.

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Far as I know, and keep in mind this is the wiki, Abhorash fought Gilles Le Breton at one point and lost to him. Having lost to Gilles, Abhorash swore himself to Gilles. He fights alongside the Green Knight who returned as King of Bretonnia in the End Times.

This is all from End Times Nagash. I try to not think about it.

 

[Mopman43]

I mean, obviously, this is assuming that anyone learned that we were a vampire.

Assuming we could convince Ranald that we were still cool, I mean, Mathilde's a pretty good liar in general, but combined with that necklace ..... as long as no one sees us drinking blood, we should be fine, and that's what all of those dragons are for and we already know where a couple are.

No, seriously. Absurd healing? Got an artifact for that already, people are used to us just walking off wounds that should kill a person. The sun? We already wear a hat which, if we combine with these three things

Mantle of Mist: Visible vapours are drawn to you. Fog and mist makes it easier to hide; smoke and gases are rather less convenient. +1 Intrigue, potential trouble with any gas-based weapons.
Shrouded: Shadows you are in grow deeper and cling more tightly to you. +2 Intrigue.
Unnatural Shadow: Your shadow has a mind of its own, moving around to inspect its surroundings and coil around things and people it takes a liking to. This is, needless to say, very unnerving.

after improving those three things to do keep us shrouded in fog/mist/darkness at all times, we could dodge the sun forever. If we aren't wearing gloves already, just get those, and bam, safe.

Mirror's? Mattie probably already dodges those out of habit from the Asp thing that she had for half her life, and the shroud of mist/fog/darkness might keep us safe from those anyway.

Sigmar stuff? We already avoid touching his stuff.

We could absolutely hide the fact that we are a vampire from pretty much everyone, for pretty much ever.

Not saying we want to become a vampire, but it's not a game ender for our social stuff.

......

Pan might notice that our body has gotten cold. Genuinely the only major obstacle, outside of drinking a dragon and maybe the Ranald thing.

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People with Windsight can still tell someone is a Vampire unless the Vampire has the specific bloodline talent to get around that.

And some of the possible weaknesses could be fairly debilitating or obvious. Like an inability to enter buildings without an invitation, obsessive counting, weakness to all religious symbols (say goodbye to the Coin), burning at the touch of silver, or the inability to cross running water.

 

[Codex]

People with Windsight can still tell someone is a Vampire unless the Vampire has the specific bloodline talent to get around that.

And some of the possible weaknesses could be fairly debilitating or obvious. Like an inability to enter buildings without an invitation, obsessive counting, weakness to all religious symbols (say goodbye to the Coin), burning at the touch of silver, or the inability to cross running water.

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For people's perusal, what Mopman is referring to is Aethyric Cypher, an ability exclusive to Lahmians in the RPG, at least in Night's Dark Masters:

"Your natural mastery over the Winds of Magic allows you to cloak and dissipate the Aethyric distortions around you. Those with Witchsight observing you must make an opposed Will Power Test and achieve at least one degree of success in order to detect anything unusual about you. You are also immune to Daemonsroot, Witchbane, and any other similar wards." Page 105

I mean, a person could probably get this ability without being Lahmian, but it comes naturally to Lahmians.

 

[consequences]

The fact that the many Karaks conquered by Greenskins aren't sending power to the Throne already suggests there's a reason that wouldn't work.

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Presumably part of the process of the fall of a Karak involves the king or duly appointed representatives performing the rituals that sever the connection, even if they may not know what the heck the practical effects of those rituals are beyond officially declaring the hold to be lost.

If you think that Mathilde has good odds against Neferata and the Lahmian Sisterhood at the center of their power, the Silver Pinnacle is probably the theoretically-easiest to take in one fell swoop.

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See the Apocrypha where we declare ourselves Orc Warlord. Except presumably more of a duel of wits and lies and less walking up and chopping off her head. Unless walking up and chopping off her head would work and is sufficiently convincing to our claim of being the true Neferata or her actual sire, in which case I'm all for it.

She is a paranoid bitch who is manipulative and deceptive. Cultivating a mistaken view of her inside everyone strikes me as perfectly IC.

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So paranoid that maybe the Neferata that everyone knows was actually a puppet and decoy?^

There's this WoB.


Which would suggest that, at minimum, Vampire Mathilde would have to clear up the outstanding Grudges her bloodline has. The quickest option I see for that would be going after every single extant vampire of that bloodline.

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Or taking over the bloodline and dedicating it to making restitution. ^^

People with Windsight can still tell someone is a Vampire unless the Vampire has the specific bloodline talent to get around that.

And some of the possible weaknesses could be fairly debilitating or obvious. Like an inability to enter buildings without an invitation, obsessive counting, weakness to all religious symbols (say goodbye to the Coin), burning at the touch of silver, or the inability to cross running water.

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We, presuming we are still cool with Ranald, have The Deceiver. Whatever our banes are, we should be able to bullshit an excuse for them, granted with a variable degree of difficulty.

Granted we may have to start making a lot of excuses as to why we aren't setting foot in the Grey College, aka the one place that would almost certainly notice us using an illusion to go out in sunlight and inside Sigmarite holy grounds, but really that just adds to the fun.

 

[adaer]

Which would suggest that, at minimum, Vampire Mathilde would have to clear up the outstanding Grudges her bloodline has. The quickest option I see for that would be going after every single extant vampire of that bloodline.

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I wonder whether she'd decide to style her hair into an orange mohawk for the task. It seems like the sort of choice she might make.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

I mean, a person could probably get this ability without being Lahmian, but it comes naturally to Lahmians.

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In the RPG, every time you enter a new Vampire career (which go from Thrall to Count to Lord), you get a new Bloodline Gift from your specific Bloodline and another one from one of the others.

Strigoi vampires have an additional feature that accompanies them when they reach Count and Lord, with Strigoi Counts now counting as having the Impact rule for their Natural Weapons but suffering a -10 penalty to using weapons due to ergonomic troubles, and Strigoi Vampire Lords gaining 3 AP on all locations but no longer being capable of wearing armour.

 

[16 characters]

@Boney Is there no chance that very useful character post you made on Thorgrim today might be bookmarked so it is not forgotten in 100 pages?

 

[adaer]

We could absolutely hide the fact that we are a vampire from pretty much everyone, for pretty much ever.

Not saying we want to become a vampire, but it's not a game ender for our social stuff.

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Now that you've listed that out I'm almost expecting someone to assume we already are a vampire. For maximum amusement, a Lahmian that survived the conspiracy and is trying to regroup with someone she thinks is a somewhat freshly turned fledging in need of a mentor.

After all, there's no way us being alone with Van Hall at his death then kicking out all the rival vampires and fleeing imperial lands for the next few decades while performing superhuman acts of magic and combat are all a coincidence.

 

[Dheer]

Yes. I doubt Mathilde would be the only loyal subject to be turned in all of the Empire ´s history, or even the Colleges'. And the Empire's policy is still « kill them on sight ». Vampires are unliving, talking vortexes of Dhar and undead abominations. The Articles are very clear about what to do about those things.

Imagine what the Sigmarites, Morrites and the general populace would think if they ever learn that the Colleges didn't immediately put down such a monster? No Patriarch would take such a risk.

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So you are saying, her loyalty is irrelevant, the actions to benefit the Empire such as destroying the Necromancy College is irrelevant, her slaying of multiple vampires is irrelevant, the building of the Eye of Gazul is irrelevant, the creation of the rooms of Calamity which has already saved wizards in the College is irrelevant and so many actions which she has done is completely irrelevant in the decision making of those parties? And that they will only respond in basically murdering her and not even attempt to communicate with her to get information which they find valuable.

Pan might notice that our body has gotten cold. Genuinely the only major obstacle, outside of drinking a dragon and maybe the Ranald thing.

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And honestly even that in something is a maybe, as the bodies of the vampires are not dead biologically speaking. Making it so attempting to check via body temperature something potentially difficult to assess.

I think they're unkillable, as vampires in 'torpor' can influence their minions or susceptible necromancers to find and restore them, so they never actually die. Libris Necris claims that vampires are simultaneously alive and undead.

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According to Liber Necris, vampires who don't let themselves go are biologically alive. They're just unkillable even if their bodies are slain, but will eventually reconstruct their body unless steps are taken to avoid it. Neferata even had biological children after becoming a vampire.

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[Aranfan]

The reason people put down vampires even when they were previously loyal, is not that vampires are mystically bound to their sires but rather that vampires have a dhar vortex stapled to their soul and can only stop it from driving them insane by drinking the blood of people. Which will also have some negative effects on mindset.

 

[adaer]

So you are saying, her loyalty is irrelevant, the actions to benefit the Empire such as destroying the Necromancy College is irrelevant, her slaying of multiple vampires is irrelevant, the building of the Eye of Gazul is irrelevant, the creation of the rooms of Calamity which has already saved wizards in the College is irrelevant and so many actions which she has done is completely irrelevant in the decision making of those parties? And that they will only respond in basically murdering her and not even attempt to communicate with her to get information which they find valuable.

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Yes. Mathilde is gone and the vampire is wearing the corpse of a once respected friend or ally or colleague. The closest they'd get to diplomacy might be "if there's anything of you left in there try to hold still so I can cut your head off quickly".

Their belief may be untrue but it's easier to stomach than accepting that someone they cared about is still in charge but was warped to the point of choosing to eat people.

 

[Dheer]

I'm pretty sure we went down this road before, and IIRC, the answer to dwarfs and vamps is that they have a grudge against them in general, but in theory a singular individual that hasn't directly harmed them could be dealt with, it's just that it hasn't really happened.

So Mathilde's super dwarf friend status would pose an interesting conundrum, and Belegar would probably be cool with it because it's Belegar.

At least that's what I recall.

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What you stated is something which is interesting, particular due to as you noted on one hand the difficulty for the Vampire being heard out by the Dwarves because of the status of other vampires tainting them and on the other we have Mathilde whose status is something which is unprecedented in its height in Dawi society such as because of her being considered the saviour of Karak Vlag Hold and the other acts which earned the immense respect of other Dawi from here. It is an interesting conundrum as one hand you have vampire and on the other you have Mathilde who was literally put into a her category apart of manlings.

There was a time when they were just another novel variety of being and could have approached the Dwarves with a clean slate, and they once had cautious relations with the city-state of Strygos, which was ruled by the Strigoi. But that was before the von Carsteins and Alkharad and the Silver Pinnacle and many other clashes. It'd be an incredibly uphill battle for a Vampire to just to be heard out by Dwarves - not because of any dislike for their state of being, but because every other Vampire has been doing what Vampires do for so long, and to so many Dwarves, and done so with Necromancy which is abhorrent to them.

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That's the point where Dwarves stop considering you a manling and just put you in a category of your own.

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[Raydom]

i mean, isn;t their that one vampire which boney acknowledged in Nuln just running his own personal library and litteratly dark lady of Nuln of the college against necromancy and vampirism allow him to still live? Even after he was taken down once but gotten back up with his followers to kill the witch hunter who took him down and plaster an angry note on his head to be sent to the local morrite temple as a zombie?

Not exactly saying the colleges would be fine with Vamp Malthitide but their does seem to be some nuance to treating vampires by the witch hunters and other religous organizations and the dwarves haven't sent a grudge expedition to kill that vampire in nuln so i don't think they'll immediettly grudge us.

Colleges though bare minimum is keeping us locked at the colleges like a perpetual under lock and key to be watched.

 

[Dheer]

i mean, isn;t their that one vampire which boney acknowledged in Nuln just running his own personal library and litteratly dark lady of Nuln of the college against necromancy and vampirism allow him to still live? Even after he was taken down once but gotten back up with his followers to kill the witch hunter who took him down and plaster an angry note on his head to be sent to the local morrite temple as a zombie?

Not exactly saying the colleges would be fine with Vamp Malthitide but their does seem to be some nuance to treating vampires by the witch hunters and other religous organizations and the dwarves haven't sent a grudge expedition to kill that vampire in nuln so i don't think they'll immediettly grudge us.

Colleges though bare minimum is keeping us locked at the colleges like a perpetual under lock and key to be watched.

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Yes, there is found the information where it was brought up and the response of Boney from seeing it.

The Black Library of Drakenhof is apparently a huge dome shaped cavern carved deep beneath the castle in Konrad Von Carstein's time, so I think it should have survived pretty intact. It has stalactites on the ceiling, so it's been carved out of solid rock.

Just checking Night's Dark Masters and I found this gem:

Count von Sangster is also famed for his scholarship, amongst both mortals and Vampires. It is said his great library is rivalled only by that of Mannfred, and Sangster's recent History of the Empire is considered to be the greatest and most complete ever compiled. So much so that Human scholars will gladly risk the association with the author to read a copy—and as he lives in Nuln, access is not difficult to arrange.


…


In some cases, Vampires don't even need to step outside to hunt, their minions hunting for them or their victims eagerly lining up to give their blood to their masters. It is not uncommon, then, for Vampires to become recluses or shut- ins, addicted to the safety and comfort of their familiar walls. Count von Sangster is said to have never set foot outside his great library for over seven hundred years.​

Has there been a canon vampire living peacefully in Nuln for seven hundred years, at least semi-openly?

I suppose it's possible. If he pretends to be an elf then the age could be explained, and if he's good enough with magic he could manage to feed without being caught if he can lure minions in and has the control not to drain them to death.

Still…

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The Black Guard killed von Sangster once. Then his servants brought him back and he sent the Captain-Justiciar that killed him back to the Temple of Morr as a zombie with a long and insulting letter nailed to his head. If a Vampire isn't bothering anyone, is taking up real estate that would otherwise probably be Skaven, and is going to be extremely costly to properly and permanently root out, maybe it's best to leave well enough alone.

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[A_Somebody]

Would anyone even have to conquer a Karak, when it's held by Greenskins for example? They don't do anything with Waystones, may not even notice the Karak functions as one.
Sneak in with the equivalent of the K8P crown and reactivate it, and done: more power flowing to the Throne.

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Uh I would think leaving a large source of magical energy and vital infrastructure in the hands of overtly hostile forces is just begging for Murphy to shit over everything to start.

 

[Verthack]

Rereading this thread it is astounding the number of times we've successfully argued ourselves into the idea that a vampire Mathilde would be objectively possible with little downside and would help immensely with all our projects.

Also I'm fairly certain the arguments themselves (on both sides) haven't chainged that much since Van hal had just died which is impressive in in of itself

I mean this is number what 5? 7? 10? I've lsot count

 

[Blackout]

In general, Vampires almost exclusively seem to drink from humans.

Whether that's preference or necessity is probably not certain. According to at least some sources, their need to feed on the recently dead instead of the living (to avoid attention) is one of the reason the Strigoi are misshapen and monstrous.

Night's Dark Masters for instance only talks about human blood when discussing the rules for feeding the Thirst.

And there's also these quotes:

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Night's Dark Masters does have several references to drinking animal blood, however:

Blood Dragons will also not lower themselves to the level of the Strigoi, who feed on vermin or the dead. This is not simply a matter of pride. Men are above animals, so their blood is more potent; Dragons are above men, so their blood is the most potent of all. Therefore, Blood Dragons often seek out the blood of creatures that may be greater than men, in the hope of getting some element of what Abhorash gained from the Dragon.

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Father Knock insures that Bland has animals to feed on (though Bland feeds only when his hunger conquers his disgust) and observes him through a peephole, making notes for his treatise on the Undead and how they pose little real threat to the living.

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For a year, Melkhior's minions pursued Zacharias through the Middle Mountains, from cave to cave and night to night. Zacharias fed on wild animals wherever he could, but the constant running exhausted him.

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The Strigoi became so terrified of exposure and extermination that they were forced to live in dark, secret places, far from Humans and civilisation, and they fed only on indigents and hermits, lepers and Ghouls, or most usually, vermin and the already dead.

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Rats and other vermin add variety but only offer the choice between the bitter and the insipid. The luckiest ones have learned to suppress their feeding urge, by sleeping, mental exertion, or some darker power.

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Those that lack minions may recover through falling into a deep hibernation. In this hibernation, the Vampire regains 1 point of Strength per year of uninterrupted "sleep." A year is interrupted if the Vampire is awake for more than an hour or takes any damage. The year must then begin again. The Vampire need not wait until he is fully recovered and may awaken from hibernation at any time. In fact, few Vampires use this option since there is usually an abundance of animals and old people on which it might feed to slake its unholy thirst.

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It seems like human blood (or better) is not a strict necessity in the short term, but less potent blood is both disgusting, less rejuvenating and may have side effects.

 

[Parabola]

Rereading this thread it is astounding the number of times we've successfully argued ourselves into the idea that a vampire Mathilde would be objectively possible with little downside and would help immensely with all our projects.

Also I'm fairly certain the arguments themselves (on both sides) haven't chainged that much since Van hal had just died which is impressive in in of itself

I mean this is number what 5? 7? 10? I've lsot count

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Honestly, while reading through the first time around early in the year, I was actually very surprised that the thread resisted the temptation of reading the Liber Mortis immediately. Glad, but surprised - SV isn't exactly known for its restraint.

 

[xamaplak]

Now that you've listed that out I'm almost expecting someone to assume we already are a vampire. For maximum amusement, a Lahmian that survived the conspiracy and is trying to regroup with someone she thinks is a somewhat freshly turned fledging in need of a mentor.

After all, there's no way us being alone with Van Hall at his death then kicking out all the rival vampires and fleeing imperial lands for the next few decades while performing superhuman acts of magic and combat are all a coincidence.

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That would honestly be so fucking funny. Especially since Mathilde would be faced with a legit conundrum: pretend to be a vampire to infiltrate (what could go wrong), try to interrogate, or just kill and hope for the best.

Kill and hope for the best is the most likely option, but I'd love 'normal' human Mathilde infiltrating the various Lahmian spy networks on the basis of her obviously being a vampire.