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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Alratan said:
I don't see why those institutions would have been annihilated. Much more likely to me that they were co-opted by Kattarin and their leadership was purged post-revolution, just as the aristocracy was, given how intertwined they were.
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We learned it in quest in conversation with some of the Kislevites, can't remember which. Those churches have been annihilated in Great War Against Chaos and never rose again, because every person that actually held to their scriptures fell in defence of the motherland. They got repopulated by layabouts and not at all upstanding folk and this is why the religion is currently on a slump in Kislev, because none of them are trustworthy followers of their gods.

So it makes sense that all the people that went around countryside preaching would no longer exist and entire career avenue stopped existing.
 
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Alratan said:
But I think we do know that the society was part of the overthrowing of Kattarin the Bloody. So we do know that it was partially because of that. Even if Pavel supported the revolution for other reasons, we know that the desire of younger nobility to one day inherit was part of the broader cause. That tells us quite a lot about Kislevite society under Kattarin.
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The Tsarevich Pavel Society is stated to be founded 'in more recent times' than Pavel's overthrow in Night's Dark Masters, so as far as that goes, they weren't involved.

That said, I didn't realize that was actually explicitly said to be the motivation.

Most of the Vampires who dwell in Kislev are of the monstrous kind, beasts barely better than ruthlessly hunted animals. It is believed that regular consumption of Chesnochnaya, garlic vodka, will keep them at bay. The Kislevites' lack of familiarity with Vampires in their other, more seductive, guise is what allowed the Tsarina Kattarin to keep her rulership of the country even after she became a Vampire. The Kislevites have a long tradition of magic-wielding ice witches holding positions of power, so a pale and beautiful woman with magical abilities holding the throne was not without precedent. Her reign was cut short when the country's boyars realised having an immortal ruling them meant nobody else would ever rise to the top, and they would be reduced to squabbling amongst themselves for greater shares of power. An alliance lead by Tsarevich Pavel finally dealt with Kattarin. Her frozen corpse is still on display in the Frost Palace as a warning to other Vampires.
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Night's Dark Masters, page 12.

That said, regarding your statement about the native cults, I find it more likely that they were persecuted than suborned. Vampires are not generally fond of Cults, the Cults tend to be an important part of resistance against them.

pucflek said:
We learned it in quest in conversation with some of the Kislevites, can't remember which. Those churches have been annihilated in Great War Against Chaos and never rose again, because every person that actually held to their scriptures fell in defence of the motherland. They got repopulated by layabouts and not at all upstanding folk and this is why the religion is currently on a slump in Kislev, because none of them are trustworthy followers of their gods.

So it makes sense that all the people that went around countryside preaching would no longer exist and entire career avenue stopped existing.
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Pretty sure that was Boris that said it.
 
pucflek said:
We learned it in quest in conversation with some of the Kislevites, can't remember which. Those churches have been annihilated in Great War Against Chaos and never rose again, because every person that actually held to their scriptures fell in defence of the motherland. They got repopulated by layabouts and not at all upstanding folk and this is why the religion is currently on a slump in Kislev, because none of them are trustworthy followers of their gods.

So it makes sense that all the people that went around countryside preaching would no longer exist and entire career avenue stopped existing.
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Correct, we learned of what happened to the institutions from Boris here in unrest of Ostermack update 7.

Boney said:
It takes a while for him to respond. "In daydream world, Teclis listened to Tzar Alexis. Stayed here, built here. Then Kislev could have Witches like you, bound by oath and law to serve Tzar and Kislev. But in this world, Fire Spire was ruined and never rebuilt. In this world, every true servant of the Bear and the Flame and the Thunder died in Praag, and now thieves and cowards choke their temples." He looks over to his glaive, glistening with cold magic. "In this world, when horse and steel is not enough, Winter is all we have left." He nods to himself as he reaches a decision. "Tell the Ice Court that Tsarevich Boris Bokha calls on them to defend the land they claim to serve."
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pucflek said:
We learned it in quest in conversation with some of the Kislevites, can't remember which. Those churches have been annihilated in Great War Against Chaos and never rose again, because every person that actually held to their scriptures fell in defence of the motherland. They got repopulated by layabouts and not at all upstanding folk and this is why the religion is currently on a slump in Kislev, because none of them are trustworthy followers of their gods.

So it makes sense that all the people that went around countryside preaching would no longer exist and entire career avenue stopped existing.
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It was offhandedly mentioned by Boris. But it's worth noting that while the Kislevites blame the survivors of the War for those problems, it doesn't mean that's the only actual problem. It's not hard to argue, for example, that the Temples could have been rebuilt, but the perception of those institutions as full of those of poor character has turned the people who are full of conviction away, or that those who are of good character and in the Temples get mistrusted because everyone knows the leadership of the Priesthoods are cowards or worse.
 
Alratan said:
Despite her spree killing habits she still ruled a functional state that was capable of resisting the Norse, Kurgan, Beastmen; Trolls, etc.
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....... her reign was bad enough, that even during the time of have an incompetent Tzar, that Tzar's rulership is vastly more preferred then hers to the point the pavel society was founded to prevent a rulership like hers from ever occurring again.

Boney said:
You nod in understanding. Directly after Tzar Alexis who fought in the Great War Against Chaos was Tzarina Kattarin the Bloody, who reigned for a century and a half before being staked, frozen, and supplanted by her son, who proved quite adept at dodging questions about how someone who had been a Vampire for at least a century could have a living human son, and also provided the inspiration for the Tsarevich Pavel Society. After all that, a merely incompetent Tzar must be quite refreshing.
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Dheer said:
... her reign was bad enough, that even during the time of have an incompetent Tzar, that Tzar's rulership is vastly more preferred then hers to the point the pavel society was founded to prevent a rulership like hers from ever occurring again.
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Preferable to whom? For the Boyars and other power groups, an incompetent Tzar wouod probably be preferable to a competent one, particularly an immensely personally powerful immortal one.

Mathidle hates vampires, so no matter how competent a ruler Kattarin was; she'd think anything was better as well.

This quote doesn't tell us anything about how competent Kattarin actually was as a ruler.

deathofrats0808 said:
It was offhandedly mentioned by Boris. But it's worth noting that while the Kislevites blame the survivors of the War for those problems, it doesn't mean that's the only actual problem. It's not hard to argue, for example, that the Temples could have been rebuilt, but the perception of those institutions as full of those of poor character has turned the people who are full of conviction away, or that those who are of good character and in the Temples get mistrusted because everyone knows the leadership of the Priesthoods are cowards or worse.
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And Boris could be prejudiced as well. They could be perfectly competent and above board but simply have different priorities or be overcoming challenges he doesn't understand do he thinks they must be stupid or immoral.
 
Alratan said:
Preferable to whom? For the Boyars and other power groups, an incompetent Tzar wouod probably be preferable to a competent one, particularly an immensely personally powerful immortal one.

Mathidle hates vampires, so no matter how competent a ruler Kattarin was; she'd think anything was better as well.

This quote doesn't tell us anything about how competent Kattarin actually was as a ruler.
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Every canon statement about Kislev at the start of Boris's reign is "Kislev is in a state barely recovered from the GWAC". Which would suggest that Kattarin the Bloody was not a particularly successful ruler.

And engaging in blood-soaked massacres on your own people, as Night's Dark Masters (page 81) says, isn't precisely the mark of a good ruler.
History students of the Empire will also know the name of Tzarina Kattarin of Kislev. Her Vampiric nature is less well known, but she is famed for her blood-soaked reign. After trying to resist her need to feed for many months, she went insane and slaughtered thousands of her own people, as well as countless soldiers of the Empire.
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Let me ask, what reason do we have to think that she was a good ruler, when every source we have says she wasn't?
 
Mopman43 said:
Every canon statement about Kislev at the start of Boris's reign is "Kislev is in a state barely recovered from the GWAC". Which would suggest that Kattarin the Bloody was not a particularly successful ruler.

And engaging in blood-soaked massacres on your own people, as Night's Dark Masters (page 81) says, isn't precisely the mark of a good ruler.

Let me ask, what reason do we have to think that she was a good ruler, when every source we have says she wasn't?
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Yeah but she was steppy, so who is to say she was bad. :V
 
Jyn Ryvia said:
Pan either has to be very worried about Mathy's inclinations towards Dom's, or their is an aspect of their private time that is not talked about.
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I believe she's fully aware and taking advantage of it:
Boney said:
"I'm attracted to clever and interesting," you say with a shrug. "And I guess dangerous, a bit. Beyond that, it's all just..." You wave a hand. "Details, and logistics."

She considers that. "I'm not dangerous."

"Have you seen the thorn thing you do?"

She cocks her head. "I guess put that way, I can kind of see it." She nods to herself. "Plus your Magesight is visual. I suppose Cython's just one big flare of Hysh to that, just like I am with Ghyran."

"I admit, you look really impressive drawing on the Waystones."

"Really?" She leans back in her chair to place her fingers on the smoothed stone of the wall, and after a moment she brightens in your vision as Ghyran trickles into her. "I'll have to keep that in mind."
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Power and confidence are things Mathilde loves, and Panoramia can provide.
 
Chlof said:
Does anyone else find it annoying how WHF refers to both legitimate religious organizations and actual cults as cults? Makes it really hard to distinguish the two in a sentence.
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My perhaps poor understanding is that the sociological difference between religions and cults mostly comes down to size. So, it would be legitimate to say ''legal cults and proscribed cults'' so long as we were talking about things like stromfels worshippers and those who worship the River Reik as a god/goddess.

Obviously, the confusion and headache sets in when we talk about stuff like Cult of Ulric or a Tzeenchian Cult though because those are likely to be part of a larger religious movement beyond the individual congregants.

In those cases, yeah IDK why they do it like that either and I'll gladly take advice on using different distinguishing terminology myself. Maybe Sigmarite, or Khornate and the like should be how more informed fans should write about such to avoid confusion?
 
Chlof said:
Does anyone else find it annoying how WHF refers to both legitimate religious organisations and actual cults as cults? Makes it really hard to distinguish the two in a sentence.
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One of my pet takes is that WHF doesn't have religious organizations, because "religion" as a category is a concept that mostly took off IRL after the European Wars of Religion which redefined the word, and WHF hasn't had a similar event. "Cult" is a useful reminder that this is not a present-analogue world.
 
When they say bestial vampires in Kislve are they talking about strigoi cells, or like individual vargulfs because there would be a large difference in terms of power projection and i'd think magical abilities between the two, right?
 
16 characters said:
When they say bestial vampires in Kislve are they talking about strigoi cells, or like individual vargulfs because there would be a large difference in terms of power projection and i'd think magical abilities between the two, right?
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Definitely not Vargulfs, those weren't a thing until 7th edition, after Night's Dark Masters released.

I can check Realm of the Ice Queen to see about any mentions, but I expect it's just about vampires other than Lahmians tend to be more straightforward in the 'cause havoc and desolation' category.
 
Exmorri said:
One of my pet takes is that WHF doesn't have religious organizations, because "religion" as a category is a concept that mostly took off IRL after the European Wars of Religion which redefined the word, and WHF hasn't had a similar event. "Cult" is a useful reminder that this is not a present-analogue world.
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Have not many of the Empires civil wars involved mass cult on cult violence? Sorry I've been learning very much the hard way that innumerable wikidives and tons of quests and lore videos are no substitute for the ''first hand'' sourcebooks however deliberately contradictory they might be.
Sidenote:
I've seen Tamurkhan Throne Of Chaos, The Tome Of Corruption/Salvation, Nights Dark Masters, Children of the Horned Rat and the Empire Army Book cited extensively as supposedly good sources, would I be liable to be missing much outside of the Elder Races if I bit the bullet and tried looking into collecting them one at a time?
Mopman43 said:
Definitely not Vargulfs, those weren't a thing until 7th edition, after Night's Dark Masters was released.

I can check Realm of the Ice Queen to see about any mentions, but I expect it's just about vampires other than Lahmians tend to be more straightforward in the 'cause havoc and desolation' category.
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I'm guessing this means they mostly had blood nights, strigoi and nechrarchs running about none of whom tend to be especially subtle with the occasional exception. See Akhana The ''Hag''.

Von Carstiens seem capable of being subtle and appearing human and not insane when they want to be, right?
 
16 characters said:
I'm guessing this means they mostly had blood nights, strigoi and nechrarchs running about none of whom tend to be especially subtle with the occasional exception. See Akhana The ''Hag''.

Von Carstiens seem capable of being subtle and appearing human and not insane when they want to be, right?
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Looking in RotIQ, there's only 3 vampire groups mentioned, all three being families in Praag. The Kalashniviks (who we heard a bit about in-quest, Boyar Kalashnivik was Drycha's target) who are Lahmians, the Vasilikovs, who claim to descend from Vashanesh (but not Vlad? Do they predate the Von Carsteins? There's a bit in NDM saying Vashanesh lived in Kislev for a while, though long before the Gospodar migration. I don't know) and the Upirnovs, who don't have any specific assosiation.

So I don't really know what that bit was about precisely.
 
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