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Yeah, my understanding of the Asrai is that they are isolationist to an extreme so it's likely they haven't read our paper on the subject. There was only a single elf on that expedition and it was an exiled Asur.
Scarloc wandered the Old World for a few decades, but I believe that was close to 200 years ago. They could sense that Morghur was in the Forest of Arden and went to fight him there, so they at least keep an eye on other Forests close to them. Can't say they know about Morghur, but he's been coming back quicker and quicker over the last few centuries, so they're probably wondering where he is.
 
A fun idea is that when the Maw changed Ogre society it forced the Halflings to leave them because they were no longer safe being around Ogres. So the ogres, consciously or not, replaced the halflings with Gnoblars because they couldn't find anyone else.
That's actually quite sad.

And throws the Ogre/Halfing/Esmerelda thing in Drunken Dynasty into new light, actually
 
A fun idea is that when the Maw changed Ogre society it forced the Halflings to leave them because they were no longer safe being around Ogres. So the ogres, consciously or not, replaced the halflings with Gnoblars because they couldn't find anyone else.

Awww, now I want to see a restored Ogre-Halfling community. That sounds so wholesome, and they complement each other perfectly; Halflings love to cook and Ogres love to eat.
 
Awww, now I want to see a restored Ogre-Halfling community. That sounds so wholesome, and they complement each other perfectly; Halflings love to cook and Ogres love to eat.
Well, you can read Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism.

In general, you need to get rid of the influence of the Maw on them, or otherwise sooner-or-later the Halflings are going in the cook-pot themselves.
 
Because that's the criteria used to draw the line: if it can be cast reliably, it's not Battle Magic. There are thresholds beyond which the nature of magic changes. If there's just a bit of magic it becomes faded and malleable and it's called Earthbound Magic. If there's too much of it, it remembers that it was born of Chaos and fights attempts to impose order upon it, and anything that requires that much power to accomplish is called Battle Magic. The chance of losing control of it can be reduced to very low levels by piling on enough skill and experience and power and insight, but it's asymptotic, you can always reduce it further but you can never completely eliminate it, because you're not just fighting magic at that point, you're fighting Chaos.
I'm still curious about how this model (fails to) deal with Golems and elementalists since IIRC Mathilde has noted that between Bok and the elementalists the College model clearly has some fairly significant holes.
 
I'm still curious about how this model (fails to) deal with Golems and elementalists since IIRC Mathilde has noted that between Bok and the elementalists the College model clearly has some fairly significant holes.
I don't think "battle magic" has much to do with the college model. It's a category of spells that can be described as "might randomly blow up if cast." it doesn't try to categorize anything else. It definitely doesn't try to categorize anything the dwarfs do.
 
Scarloc wandered the Old World for a few decades, but I believe that was close to 200 years ago. They could sense that Morghur was in the Forest of Arden and went to fight him there, so they at least keep an eye on other Forests close to them. Can't say they know about Morghur, but he's been coming back quicker and quicker over the last few centuries, so they're probably wondering where he is.
That reminds me... Is it known that Morghur had a thing against the Asrai and Ariel? Because now I'm wondering if that's a potential in with them to examine the Athel Loren network: Pointing out that we brought up useful information that's relevant to them.
 
That reminds me... Is it known that Morghur had a thing against the Asrai and Ariel? Because now I'm wondering if that's a potential in with them to examine the Athel Loren network: Pointing out that we brought up useful information that's relevant to them.
Bretonnia would know Morghur is obsessed with Athel Loren.
 
I am personally betting on an external social coming from Hatalath. His perception of us should have changed after he noticed that we were actually competent
 
I'm still curious about how this model (fails to) deal with Golems and elementalists since IIRC Mathilde has noted that between Bok and the elementalists the College model clearly has some fairly significant holes.

Elementals use magic that identifies with the four elements—earth, wind, fire, and water. Under the teclisian model, that is Hysh, Azyr, Aqshy, and Ghyran—but Earth elementals are not made of light. Hysh might be associated with earth, but if you get a lot of it together you don't get earth, you get light.

The "solution" to this is Earthbound magic—at low volumes, the winds lose their identity and you can sort of impose whatever identity you want on them. But Earthbound magic isn't strong enough to make elementals—and if you gather more of it, it stops being Earthbound and becomes Wind magic.

This creates a bit of a catch-22—earthbound magic is the only way to create an elemental, but it's too weak to actually sustain the enchantment. Not enough Hysh and it won't function. Too much and you have a light elemental. There's no level of "just right" to create earth, or water, or wind elementals (fire, of course, can come directly from Aqshy).

By all the known laws of magic, elementals are impossible. But they clearly exist, therefore we can deduce that the known laws of magic are incomplete or even outright wrong.
 
By all the known laws of magic, elementals are impossible. But they clearly exist, therefore we can deduce that the known laws of magic are incomplete or even outright wrong.
If I remember correctly, the Asur mages in Marienbourg use water elementals to keep their canals clean. It would mean that they have an understanding of magic that reconcile Wind-magic and elementalism but Teclis didn't want to teach it to the Colleges for reasons.
 
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That reminds me... Is it known that Morghur had a thing against the Asrai and Ariel? Because now I'm wondering if that's a potential in with them to examine the Athel Loren network: Pointing out that we brought up useful information that's relevant to them.

From what I can find about the subject. We do know that Horstman and the Jade Patriarch that they know of its tendency to go where they are, with the Jade Patriarch in particular knowing that endless war is waged between the Asrai and the forces of beastman and Morghur. This is where I found the information. It is however unknown to what extend people know about it but it seems to be obscure since even Horstmann was unaware of certain facts that the Jade leader knew off.

"I've been trying to get it straight in my mind," he says, "but what we saw doesn't make any sense once you look past the surface. It's easy to say 'they're guarded by a Chaos thing, ergo they fell to Chaos, job done, off we go'. But I've read of the Shadowgave before, and though it shares several properties with Daemons, the way it acts is entirely different to them. As far back as is known, it acts according to whim and chance, reacting to whatever stimuli it encounters. The closest thing it has to any sort of motivation beyond killing and eating and twisting is its tendency to wander in the direction of Athel Loren."

He looks baffled. "How do you know Coeddil's name, but not- oh, did Laurelorn tell you about him?" You nod. "It makes sense that they would be a bit behind on things. Of its Treeman Elders, Athel Loren only has Durthu left, as Adanhu was killed and Coeddil corrupted by the endless battles against Morghur." He frowns. "Well, apparently endless. Are you sure it was him you saw up at Karag Dum?"

"I am, and so are the very many people that were also credited with my paper on the subject."

"Mm. By all accounts he's impossible to mistake for anything else. I do wish you'd been able to get some hard answers about what that was all about."
 
If I remember correctly, the Asur mages on Marienbourg use water elementals to keep their canals clean. It would mean that they have an understanding of magic that reconcile Wind-magic and elementalism but Teclis didn't want to teach it to the Colleges for reasons.

Yeah, Teclisian magic is intentionally incomplete. Teclis stripped out a lot of the theory and the artistic elements to create a rough and ready syllabus that could turn humans into walking siege weapons overnight, and then never bothered to fill in the gaps.

Teclisian magic is, in many ways, a devolved version of the magics the elves use, from High Magic to their various specialised disciplines, such as Dragon Princes of Caledor, the Mistwalkers of Yvresse, or the Shadow Warriors of Nagarythe.

That's partly why the Waystone project is important—we're pretending that Teclis taught us more than he did, in the hopes that we can trick the Eonir into filling those gaps he left.
 
Actually thinking about that "norsca was another prison" part. The only race that i could think of that roughly come from there would be the fimir.
Could be the trolls or the Dragon Ogres also.

Hmmm. Is it possible Morghur's enmity to the Asrai is at least partially due to them trying to pull a Skaven and/or Nagash on it, or a prior incarnation of it?
I don't see how? AFAIK, Morghur only interacts with the Elves by trying to destroy Athel Loren/Ariel/the Oak of Ages for vaguely defined reasons.

Actually, I think the pheonix bit is just a replacemant for the actual person in the original.

You see, while it might describe Asuryan theres a slight catch: Dead on Giant Pillar, But not dead enough to blast all the daemons and lock them away for sometime? There is another being who explictly did that literal thing without question.

That mention of Sotek implies this legend is older than Taal. Its likely an Albion legend. And if so...that Phoenix isnt Asuryan.


He's Lord Kroak. Deliverance explictly banished every daemon in Lustria with many true killed. All it takes is for some lizardmen to explain the events to Albion for the story to enter into human legends. And why Sotek is in there.
Eh, could be, but I find it unlikely. Albion had minimal contact with Lustria, and none at all after the Gates collapsed AFAIK.

If I remember correctly, the Asur mages in Marienbourg use water elementals to keep their canals clean. It would mean that they have an understanding of magic that reconcile Wind-magic and elementalism but Teclis didn't want to teach it to the Colleges for reasons.
Or that Teclis himself didn't understand it. Or that the Asur as a whole don't understand it, even if they can use it. Or that those are non-canon to the quest. Or that they're spirits, similar to Dryads or the spirits Hags can control, which aren't incompatible with Teclisean theory IIRC.
 
From what I can find about the subject. We do know that Horstman and the Jade Patriarch that they know of its tendency to go where they are, with the Jade Patriarch in particular knowing that endless war is waged between the Asrai and the forces of beastman and Morghur. This is where I found the information. It is however unknown to what extend people know about it but it seems to be obscure since even Horstmann was unaware of certain facts that the Jade leader knew off.
Well, i guess we can now give an answer to the question of "what the fuck is going on with dum?!" Just if we actually do it is another question.
 
Or that Teclis himself didn't understand it. Or that the Asur as a whole don't understand it, even if they can use it. Or that those are non-canon to the quest. Or that they're spirits, similar to Dryads or the spirits Hags can control, which aren't incompatible with Teclisean theory IIRC.
Those are possibilities, but we know the Asurs could create elementals in the past because of Bok's existence. They lost way less knowledge than the dwarfs because they had the extremely basic intelligence to actually write it down instead of trusting their magic to oral tradition. It's fairly reasonable to assume their magical theory encompasses elementals.
 
Or that they're spirits, similar to Dryads or the spirits Hags can control, which aren't incompatible with Teclisean theory IIRC.
I actually really like this solution to the question. We know magic channelled through big Gods can do weird stuff divergent from the Winds, and with the revelations about Morghur and speculation about the nature of warp entities in general, golems and elementals being empowered spirits seems to fit.

You funnel a small enough amount of magic that they can handle it and impose their will/domain over it at a time, and it's like casting a spell through a greater good, but the spell is just contributing to support their current form.

It would seem like a slightly divergent form of apparition binding, and you might even argue that vampires are a corrupted version of the process using a mortal soul and dhar instead of a spirit and either earthbound or pure wind magic.
 
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I suspect Morghur's obsession with Athel Loren has something to do with the Worldroots, since the Oak of Ages is the center of that network. (There's not a lot of detail about how the Worldroots and OoA came to be, but it does seem to pre-date the Asrai, and the fact that this thing stretches all over the world makes me suspect the Old Ones might have been involved with or at least known about it)
 
Those are possibilities, but we know the Asurs could create elementals in the past because of Bok's existence. They lost way less knowledge than the dwarfs because they had the extremely basic intelligence to actually write it down instead of trusting their magic to oral tradition. It's fairly reasonable to assume their magical theory encompasses elementals.
Here's a quote backing that up:

Regarding the magic/rune elemental, do elves actually have elementalists?
They do.
That Teclis explained the magic of the eight winds to humans but left that out seems a bit weird if it was an established part of elven magic and humans were already practising it, if the reason he left out high magic is because humans just couldn't pull it off. Guess it could have just been because it wasn't his focus but he could have surely asked an elven elementalist to come over or let Magus know that stuff was legit and to make another College.
It was during a war for survival. The curriculum got pared down as far as it would go to output Battle Wizards as fast as possible to try to hold back the tide of armageddon. This isn't the first or the last little niche that was left out.
 
It would seem like a slightly divergent form of apparition binding,
Damn Eshin, I was just going to say apparation was not explained in the Teclisian model and there might be a connection.

More to point Teclisian model is not really a model either. Atleast it is not one that created by Teclis, it is more of a college invention. He just taught collages bunch of spells and colleges has been going crazy trying to understand them ever since.
 
Damn Eshin, I was just going to say apparation was not explained in the Teclisian model and there might be a connection.

More to point Teclisian model is not really a model either. Atleast it is not one that created by Teclis, it is more of a college invention. He just taught collages bunch of spells and colleges has been going crazy trying to understand them ever since.
Yeah, "teclesian model" implies he sat down and tried to model how magic works.

What actually happened was probably closer to
"Oh shit, oh fuck, need mages, fuck, CHAOS INVASION! HUMANS! LETS GET THEM FIGHTING!"
 
So minor secrets…

Mathy has a hidden palace. Eike will probably get it.

The actual leader of the grey order is Algard, not Olorin. (minor for the grey order anyways...

this is actually hard.
 
So minor secrets…

Mathy has a hidden palace. Eike will probably get it.

The actual leader of the grey order is Algard, not Olorin. (minor for the grey order anyways...

this is actually hard.
Skaven are probably minor because she will find out anyway if we are in a dwarf hold. (Which we are often). Also the waystone project, that her grandma's trading company is our personal spy ring.
 
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