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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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It's been a while since I last built models. Primarily because I've been caught up in a new exercise regime. But I'm back now, and I've made a few more:
Those are a bunch of Endless Spells. Lauchon the Soulseeker (skeletal boatman), Shards of Valaghar (little pyramids sticking out of their base because the designer didn't measure things out properly), Horrorghast (Nagash's ugly mug) and Soulscream Bridge (the models that look like prime ribs).

You know what, I like Nagash's hat. Maybe it's because it's very easy to handle as opposed to most hats, which are incredibly small and finnicky and keep slipping out of my fingers. There's no way for you to lose Nagash's hat. It's also very easy to build.

Also, my full collection looks like a plastic menagerie:
I should really get to painting, but that part makes me nervous. I never feel like I'm prepared to do it. There's always some more research I have to do before I feel prepared.
 
When it comes to painting, start simple and work your way up. You don't need to try and match the detail on the box art, you don't need to start out drybrushing or highlighting, just begin with simple, straightforward colourschemes.

And don't forget to thin your paints.
 
NSMS said:
When it comes to painting, start simple and work your way up. You don't need to try and match the detail on the box art, you don't need to start out drybrushing or highlighting, just begin with simple, straightforward colourschemes.

And don't forget to thin your paints.
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Things are more complicated. I bought contrast paints, and they work differently to Acryllic paints. I believe they're ink based metallic paints that work based on sinking into the recesses, so thinning is not always necessary and if so, you don't even use water to thin it. You use Contrast Medium. It's an entirely new field that older painting videos don't really take into consideration.

EDIT: Correction, they don't seem to be metallic. They're "Matte Paint", whatever that means.
 
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Codex said:
Things are more complicated. I bought contrast paints, and they work differently to Acryllic paints. I believe they're ink based metallic paints that work based on sinking into the recesses, so thinning is not always necessary and if so, you don't even use water to thin it. You use Contrast Medium. It's an entirely new field that older painting videos don't really take into consideration.

EDIT: Correction, they don't seem to be metallic. They're "Matte Paint", whatever that means.
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Primer your models with White Scar or another light-coloured Primer, I think those paints are meant to go with that. Contrast paints are entirely marketed around skipping the "apply wash" step that usually adds definition to paint jobs according to the Games Workshop method of painting your models.

So where you'd usually apply "Leadbelcher" base paint followed by "Nuln Oil" wash to help define shadows and recesses on a model for instance you just use whatever equivalent it is for contrast. At least in theory.

The newer contrast range they released has more overall coverage, but some of the paints seem to bungle the wash step.
 
I've been thinking about a potential library agreement with the Cult of Verena, and though I previously thought that we should hold off on that until our library is more impressive, I actually think we will soon be in a good position to reach an agreement with them - more specifically, with the Order of Mysteries. To those who forgot, we spoke to a Verenan from the Order of Mysteries in Kazrik and Edda's Wedding:
Boney said:
"The Cult of Verena does not have the rigid hierarchy of, say, the Cult of Shallya, or even that of your own Orders," says the small man with large, round glasses and a sword on his waist that almost scrapes the ground. "We of the Order of Mysteries are one of the few formal organizations within the Cult, organized as we are under the High Priest of Altdorf, and there are also the Templars of the Order of the Everlasting Light and the Order of the Sword and Scale. In contrast, the other 'Orders' within the Cult are better thought of as schools or philosophies. Each courthouse and library is subject only to law, truth, and Verena, and I'm sure you can imagine how opinions may differ in what these all have to say. It is with regret that I say that short of divine intervention, you have no option but to approach each library as its own entity."

"Can you give me any advice for doing so?

He considers that. "There are two distinct groups of people within the Cult of Verena who seek dominion over libraries: the Lorekeepers who see knowledge as sacrament and wish to spread it, and the Scrollbearers who see knowledge as power and wish to hoard it. Identify which you are dealing with as soon as possible, as you will need two entirely separate kinds of bait to ensnare each. The Lorekeepers would value an institution who can guarantee the safety and spread of knowledge entrusted to it, and if you wish to present yourself as positively as possible to such people, a chapter of the Knights of the Scroll to guard your library would be the most effective way of doing so. The Scrollbearers, however, do not have a better nature that can be enticed thusly, and so you must resort to a quid pro quo approach if you find yourself in need of what only they can offer."
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To summarize, we aren't going to reach an agreement with the entire cult at once. The best we can hope for is reaching an agreement with specific Verenan libraries. One such library is the Great Library of Altdorf, run by the High Priest of Altdorf who is also head of the Order of Mysteries. The Order of Mysteries is a specific Order within the group of 'Lorekeepers', and Lorekeepers will care about our library's security. Now that our library is staffed by a nest of spiders the odds of us getting a chapter of Knights of the Scroll to guard it are pretty much zero, but I don't think we need to despair. In fact, I think the Library-We is an excellent source of security from a Verenan perspective, we just need to know how to sell it to them.

The We is a being that considers the loss of its knowledge as akin to death, and yet does not jealously hoard it; though it is a fairly solitary being, the idea of sharing knowledge is similar to the process of echoing its memories within its nest, a process that is a vital to its survival as eating. When we explained to it the concept of a library it had no trouble with the idea of visitors reading its books - taking them into their Echo, as it might say - or making copies, as long as the original books do not leave the library. This is a being for which the safeguarding of knowledge and to a slightly lesser extent the spreading of knowledge are almost biological imperatives - you would not find a being so dedicated to the ideals of the Cult of Verena as they pertain to knowledge anywhere else save within the Cult itself.

Less important but still notable is the fact that when it reached a trade agreement with the Karak for silk the pricing scheme they agreed to was that the weight of the food given be equal the weight of the product they provided, and they kept record of the food they believe the Karak provided to them before they entered the trade agreement, a record they considered a debt which they then took care to repay. All of this speaks, I think, to an instinctive and profound sense of fairness and honesty. Though they are going to take the role of librarian rather than judge or adjudicator, I would say that even that facet of Verena would come naturally to them. I am not saying that the Lorekeepers should send some librarian-priests to train the Library-We in bibliothecography and attempt a conversion, but I'm not not saying it...

So I think we can sell the Library-We to the Lorekeepers, and Mathilde should easily be able to sell herself as dedicated to the ideals of safeguarding and spreading knowledge, provided she doesn't flub her diplomacy roll too hard. But we have an even better case to make for the Order of Mysteries specifically.

The Order of Mysteries is a Verenan order with the objective of recovering lost tomes and knowledge. It's basically a bunch of adventurers going around raiding tombs and saying "this belongs in a museum library". The Order of Mysteries is all about recovering tomes from all sorts of dangerous places, and you know who else goes around getting books from dangerous places? That's right, Mathilde Weber, Wizard Adventurer and Scholar. Places Mathilde has recovered book from include Skaven Warrens, the ruins of Castle Drakenhof, and - once we reach an agreement with Karak Vlag - literally Hell. And Mathilde shows no signs of stopping, she is currently head of a project that is in large part about gathering lost and ancient knowledge, and it's not at all unlikely that at some point she will raid a lost Karak or rob a Druchii library and find some very old tomes. This is right up the Order of Mysteries alley, and they would probably love a chance to make a copy of all of those recovered books in their own library, just in case.

So I'm thinking we wait and see how the We's education progresses and make sure it goes well, maybe also get some books on Verena for them, get an agreement with Karak Vlag, and once that is done we can approach either the Great Library of Altdorf or the Order of Mysteries - they may or may not end up being a package deal, I'm not sure, but either way I think we will have a decent shot at getting a good deal.
 
@mathymancer the problem with the Lorekeepers is that their desire to bury bad books inside lightless chambers that'll be sealed away for all eternity conflicts with the desire of some of the players to burn the books instead.
 
Andres said:
@mathymancer the problem with the Lorekeepers is that their desire to bury bad books inside lightless chambers that'll be sealed away for all eternity conflicts with the desire of some of the players to burn the books instead.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. What sort of conflict are you predicting? Any book in our library isn't a book the players want to burn, on account of being in our library. I get that there are could be issues if we go on book finding trips with any Lorekeepers, that's why we didn't take them to Drakenhof, but what does that have to do with a library agreement?
 
mathymancer said:
I'm not sure what you're getting at. What sort of conflict are you predicting? Any book in our library isn't a book the players want to burn, on account of being in our library. I get that there are could be issues if we go on book finding trips with any Lorekeepers, that's why we didn't take them to Drakenhof, but what does that have to do with a library agreement?
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The issues of going on book trips with the Lorekeepers isn't what has to do with a library agreement. What has to do with a library agreement is that players find it unacceptable that the Lorekeepers would be willing to seal away and protect bad books, even from dwarves. In the past, that opinion on the Lorekeepers' policy resulted in refusal to make a library agreement with the Lorekeepers, and the opinion will continue to result in a refusal.
 
Andres said:
What has to do with a library agreement is that players find it unacceptable that the Lorekeepers would be willing to seal away and protect bad books, even from dwarves.
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I am once again not sure what you're getting at. What players find what policy unacceptable, and why would that have any bearing on any library agreement? We are not talking about letting the Lorekeepers run our library, they wouldn't get to decide which of our books the dwarves get to read. They probably won't share some of their books with us because some of their books are too dangerous to be shared, but we aren't going to let them read the Liber Mortis either so fair's fair.
Andres said:
In the past, that opinion on the Lorekeepers' policy resulted in refusal to make a library agreement with the Lorekeepers, and the opinion will continue to result in a refusal.
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When has a library agreement with the Lorekeepers ever been on the table, such that posters had the ability to refuse it? I have no recollection of anything of the sort. Could you quote the relevant posts?
 
mathymancer said:
What players find what policy unacceptable, and why would that have any bearing on any library agreement?
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The reason it has any bearing on a library agreement is this: we cannot make a library agreement without a majority of player votes in favour, and the majority of voters would vote against it because of their policy.

mathymancer said:
When has a library agreement with the Lorekeepers ever been on the table, such that posters had the ability to refuse it? I have no recollection of anything of the sort. Could you quote the relevant posts?
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A library agreement with the Lorekeepers was on the table when we were selecting who'd come with us to Drakenhof. Though there were also other benefits, a draw of bringing Verenans with us was that it would've been a step to getting an agreement with them. Some rejected the Knights of the Scroll in Drakenhof for issues specifically pertaining to that mission. For others, it's because an agreement with Lorekeepers is undesirable, so there'd be no point bringing the Knights of the Scroll in over another group.

Here's a quote illustrating that bringing in the Knights of the Scroll was attractive for the purposes of further cooperation:
Jreengus said:
I'm wary about the Amethysts after what happened last time, I'd rather avoid any issues of divided loyalties(tm) from the people we hire.

I would like to bring in the Verenan's, it will be a chance to start co-operation with them and they are likely to share a similar priority of not burning any books we find.
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And here's the opinions of players on why a library agreement with the Lorekeepers is anathema:
Rafin said:
I... don't know if we want to do this to Belegar. There's most likely no situation in which he'd think that either of those orders would wrongfully want to destroy something and that putting armed hurdles in their way would be an even remotely good idea.
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StormySky said:
Generally the preservation (and spreading) of knowledge is an admirable goal, but when it comes to actually corruptive Chaos tomes that will drive insane anyone who actually tries to read the thing and make use of the knowledge, it's probably best to just burn the accursed thing instead of wasting manpower guarding it and still running the risk of some lunatic getting lucky and stealing it sometime down the line.
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pucflek said:
I honestly really don't feel the need to possibly complicate our lives by whatever shenanigans unaffiliated knight order might get up to when we can literally just not do that and get big enough to trade books with verenans anyway.
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Rafin said:
It's a simple pros and cons question.

Pros:
Get in the good books with the most popular Verenan Order and thus get the good books of any libraries affiliated with said Order.
An extra Knight Order that will fight alongside the rest of K8P to protect it.
Human library guards with experience guarding and policing libraries.
Will defend even the Liber Mortis if necessary.
Several of the cons below are less than likely to cause problems any time soon.

Cons:
A whole bunch of knights with their own loyalties.
Said Knights are explicitly there because they don't think that the protection that Belegar and the Dwarves provide is "enough". And Mathilde will be granting them legitimacy.
Said knights are explicitly there because they don't trust the judgement of the Dwarven anti-corruption Orders.
Knights cost upkeep, which Belegar might end up having to pay, even if they alienate Dwarves with their attitude.
Certain books slipping into the Library and then their presence subsequently becoming known might lead to Order on Order violence in or around our Library.
There's books even we/Mathilde will want destroyed. The knights will be upset about it if they find out.
Potential interreligious squabbles we don't know about?


As is, I am ambivalent. If not handled with finesse, posting the Order of the Scroll here might be a minor slap in the face to Belegar. But on the other hand B Ö Ö K.
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Installing a chapter of the Knights of the Scroll will guarantee support from the Lorekeepers—but it's not the only price we can pay for their support. There's bound to be other things we can promise in return. The Knights are just an auto-crit, in a way.
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Tobtorp said:
I'm a bit hesitant because the knights would frown on us if we decide specific knowledge needs to be destroyed, which is a thing that can pop up. And even if the knights are not there we are still up for allowing every order race access. That wouldn't change with or without them.
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DragonParadox said:
I do not think we want knights of the Scroll, not because we do not agree with them personally but because they would cool the interest of the very people who would have the most interesting books. Say for instance you are the Cult of Mor and you would like to keep the Big Book of Human Souls (not for eating or enslaving) in a safe place like a dwarf hold, but you do not really want random people to poke it and should he hold fall you would rather it be destroyed than captured.

The same goes for any secret or dangerous lore when the Book Preservation Zealots are on the case and willing to stab over preserving it (even in an unsafe way)
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Rafin said:
This case is different. The Knights of the Scroll wouldn't be there because they don't think the local dwarves are powerful enough to adequately protect the books. Their job is to be there in case the Dwarves aren't adequately motivated to protect all the books. A bunch of knights aren't useless, but in terms of power they don't provide anything qualitatively different. But even if their motivation of protecting any and all books even against the likes of the Order of the Stone Wall or the Order of the Guardians isn't advertised, they are still there so that the Lorekeepers would feel that any books send this way are adequately protected, not just from assorted external threats but even from the locals.
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Andres said:
The reason it has any bearing on a library agreement is this: we cannot make a library agreement without a majority of player votes in favour, and the majority of voters would vote against it because of their policy.


A library agreement with the Lorekeepers was on the table when we were selecting who'd come with us to Drakenhof. Though there were also other benefits, a draw of bringing Verenans with us was that it would've been a step to getting an agreement with them. Some rejected the Knights of the Scroll in Drakenhof for issues specifically pertaining to that mission. For others, it's because an agreement with Lorekeepers is undesirable, so there'd be no point bringing the Knights of the Scroll in over another group.

Here's a quote illustrating that bringing in the Knights of the Scroll was attractive for the purposes of further cooperation:


And here's the opinions of players on why a library agreement with the Lorekeepers is anathema:
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As somebody who vaguely remembers being against, I think you're missing some nuance. Not wanting to hire them directly doesn't mean we don't want access to their books. The issues people were rejecting, broadly speaking, were what concessions we had to make in terms of autonomy and control, not the entire idea of possible collaboration. And the more well established we are, the less concessions we need to make.
 
Andres said:
The reason it has any bearing on a library agreement is this: we cannot make a library agreement without a majority of player votes in favour, and the majority of voters would vote against it because of their policy.
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Going on a book finding trip with the Knights of the Scroll is a very different thing from sharing some books with a library run by Lorekeepers, and deducing from the arguments of half a dozen posters on the subject of the first that the thread as a whole will refuse to do the second is a very large leap. I know for a fact that not every poster that had a problem taking the Knights of the Scroll with us to Drakenhof has a problem reaching a library agreement with Lorekeepers in general, because I am such a poster.

There are, among the quotes you quoted, posters arguing that we shouldn't use the Knight of the Scroll as security. But as one of those quotes pointed out:
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Installing a chapter of the Knights of the Scroll will guarantee support from the Lorekeepers—but it's not the only price we can pay for their support. There's bound to be other things we can promise in return. The Knights are just an auto-crit, in a way.
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In my own post which began this exchange I very explictly said that I don't foresee us hiring the Knights of the Scroll to guard our library, but I think we can nonetheless reach an agreement with them.
 
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ReImagined said:
As somebody who vaguely remembers being against, I think you're missing some nuance. Not wanting to hire them directly doesn't mean we don't want access to their books. The issues people were rejecting, broadly speaking, were what concessions we had to make in terms of autonomy and control, not the entire idea of possible collaboration. And the more well established we are, the less concessions we need to make.
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mathymancer said:
There are, among the quotes you quoted, posters arguing that we shouldn't use the Knight of the Scroll as security. But as one of those quotes pointed out:
In my own post which began this exchange I very explictly said that I don't foresee us hiring the Knights of the Scroll to guard our library, but I think we can nonetheless reach an agreement with them.
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Multiple people who are against getting a chapter of the Knights of the Scroll to guard the library have expressed the notion that there are other ways to get the Lorekeepers involved. For non-Verenan libraries, getting more books to trade works, same for the minority of Verenan libraries held by Scrollbearers. To get the Lorekeepers involved, we've been told directly and unambiguously that we need to guarantee our library will safeguard and spread knowledge. The Knights of the Scroll were cited as the best way of doing that, but while there might be other methods of proving our trustworthiness, getting that trustworthiness - however we do it - is the only way to get the Lorekeepers involved.

The majority of voters do not want to be trustworthy in the way the Lorekeepers want. They want to burn books, or allow dwarves to burn books, or some other thing that amounts to being pro-book burning in some way. No amount of concessions can circumvent the Lorekeepers' opposition to that desire.
 
Andres said:
To get the Lorekeepers involved, we've been told directly and unambiguously that we need to guarantee our library will safeguard and spread knowledge. The Knights of the Scroll were cited as the best way of doing that, but while there might be other methods of proving our trustworthiness, getting that trustworthiness - however we do it - is the only way to get the Lorekeepers involved.
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I've laid out in my post why I think we our current staff - the We - might go some way towards that. You are free to disagree, but I don't think you should speak on behalf of the thread as to what they will or won't vote to, not when the issue has never been brought to vote and all you have in the way of evidence is some remarks on a somewhat related but still seperate issue.
Andres said:
The majority of voters do not want to be trustworthy in the way the Lorekeepers want. They want to burn books, or allow dwarves to burn books, or some other thing that amounts to being pro-book burning in some way. No amount of concessions can circumvent the Lorekeepers' opposition to that desire.
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You are, in my opinion, very badly misrepresenting the opinions of the posters you mention. I've read every quote you claim expresses "opinions on why a library agreement with the Lorekeepers is anathema" and I do not at all think they say those things, but I'll leave it to the posters in question to clarify whether or not they believe this if they so desire. In any case I am wholly unconvinced that the thread will refuse any and all deals with the Lorekeepers.
 
Yeah, that was me expressing doubts on using Knights of the Scroll in particular. I'm not sure where this whole insistence that the thread will absolutely refuse to have anything to do with Lorekeepers came from. Look, I get you might be salty about the Verenans losing the Drakenhof expedition crewing vote, but can you please not jump to conclusions and make bizarro claims like that?
 
Andres said:
Multiple people who are against getting a chapter of the Knights of the Scroll to guard the library have expressed the notion that there are other ways to get the Lorekeepers involved. For non-Verenan libraries, getting more books to trade works, same for the minority of Verenan libraries held by Scrollbearers. To get the Lorekeepers involved, we've been told directly and unambiguously that we need to guarantee our library will safeguard and spread knowledge. The Knights of the Scroll were cited as the best way of doing that, but while there might be other methods of proving our trustworthiness, getting that trustworthiness - however we do it - is the only way to get the Lorekeepers involved.

The majority of voters do not want to be trustworthy in the way the Lorekeepers want. They want to burn books, or allow dwarves to burn books, or some other thing that amounts to being pro-book burning in some way. No amount of concessions can circumvent the Lorekeepers' opposition to that desire.
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I don't think they're the same, really. We didn't want Lorekeepers in our library or at Drakenhof because we didn't want them to be in a position to make a fuss if some books needed burning. I don't see how a library-sharing agreement would give them that; it seems unlikely that they'd demand it as part of negotiations, and if they did we'd say no.

I am confident that our library as an institution "safeguards and spreads knowledge" to a sufficient degree that they'd be willing to share. The vast majority of books do not need burning.
 
Voting closed, writing has begun.

Adhoc vote count started by Boney on Aug 23, 2022 at 7:35 PM, finished with 1180 posts and 233 votes.
money sheets armarium scrolls flesh ring
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Deathbybunnies said:
I don't think they're the same, really. We didn't want Lorekeepers in our library or at Drakenhof because we didn't want them to be in a position to make a fuss if some books needed burning. I don't see how a library-sharing agreement would give them that; it seems unlikely that they'd demand it as part of negotiations, and if they did we'd say no.
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Do you mean Lorekeepers or Knights of the Scroll? If the former, you're proving my argument in a total way.

And the Lorekeepers would require that we prevent all bookburning if we want a library agreement with them. "Vast majority" doesn't cut it, or else there never would've been a problem.
 
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Andres said:
Do you mean Lorekeepers or Knights of the Scroll? If the former, you're proving my argument in a total way.

And the Lorekeepers would demand that we prevent all bookburning if we want a library agreement with them. "Vast majority" doesn't cut it, or else there never would've been a problem.
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I wonder if we could do a PPP for the scribes and give a contract to the EIC to open a publishing house and try to turn the library into a profitable venture by selling copies of some of our best books. The EIC probably has the clout to hire scribes of all stripes inside and outside the Karak and arrange transportation. And in the end, the library might end up making money instead of being a drain for the Karak.
 
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