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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Jreengus said:
Yeh... I'd considered that but I didn't want to accuse the thread of trying to use books to enslave them. Like I'm struggling to come up with a good analogy* but there is something really skeevy and gross about offering them the books in order to eternally tie them to a location where they are forced to work for us. Honestly if they wanted to leave or work somewhere else I would do everything possible to help them take the books with them.

Of course there is still the possibility that their philosophical outlook changes as they spend longer interacting with other races and decide that they don't need to take all the books with them or that it is worth leaving some books behind to do something else they really want to.

*Probably for the better using analogies on the internet is a fools game.
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Books or no books the We are not that mobile to begin with, the only realistic way for them to move is back into the Underway... which is to say back to the short brutish life where the only concern is survival and the only pleasure is food. The perspective that offering them a better life is entrapment is kind of warped IMO, especially if one were t actually treat them as adults, you know aware that books would make them less mobile.
 
Jreengus said:
For the same reasons any normal person might choose to leave a job? If The We wants to do a different job or travel somewhere else for whatever reason creating a split doesn't help the version that is still stuck at K8P.


Yeh... I'd considered that but I didn't want to accuse the thread of trying to use books to enslave them. Like I'm struggling to come up with a good analogy* but there is something really skeevy and gross about offering them the books in order to eternally tie them to a location where they are forced to work for us. Honestly if they wanted to leave or work somewhere else I would do everything possible to help them take copies of the books with them.

Of course there is still the possibility that their philosophical outlook changes as they spend longer interacting with other races and decide that they don't need to take all the books with them or that it is worth leaving some books behind to do something else they really want to.

*Probably for the better using analogies on the internet is a fools game.
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I'm struggling to wrap my head around this.
We are offering them a job, one that they would be incredibly suited for, and one we know they would never want to quit, because the benefits are just so amazing.
How is that bad?
 
I sometimes do wish their was a 'vote transfer' option, for when 2-4 options are just way ahead.

where the lows options are removed and the people who voted for the removed options but none of the top options are given a chance to revote.

While everyone else that did vote gets locked in.

Tow stage voting basically.
 
People are free to revote any time they want.
Doing a two stage voting would just make things go incredibly slow and not effect the outcome all that much in most cases because people who throw a vote and then don't care probably still would not care.
 
DragonParadox said:
Books or no books the We are not that mobile to begin with, the only realistic way for them to move is back into the Underway... which is to say back to the short brutish life where the only concern is survival and the only pleasure is food. The perspective that offering them a better life is entrapment is kind of warped IMO, especially if one were t actually treat them as adults, you know aware that books would make them less mobile.
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Isn't part of the goal of choosing the We (and something I really hope works out) to normalise them interacting with other sapient. There are such things as wagons and boats they could hire to move.

Deathbybunnies said:
The We as a whole aren't mobile in the same way that people are. Moving the colony is a major endeavour, only done when there literally isn't enough food to sustain them. They're also used to much less entertainment than running a Library would provide, having spent the majority of its life alone. If they move into the Library, they are extremely likely to remain there indefinitely.
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Assuming they remain mentally static for all eternity. Given how they've grown over the last decade this seems a foolish assumption to make.

Valmond said:
I'm struggling to wrap my head around this.
We are offering them a job, one that they would be incredibly suited for, and one we know they would never want to quit, because the benefits are just so amazing.
How is that bad?
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There is a stated benefit of "if we hire The We they will do the job for eternity" and the response to "What if they don't want to do the job for eternity?" is "They wont have any choice once they start they cant leave" If that doesn't sound sketch and predatory AF to you I don't know what to say.
 
Jreengus said:
Isn't part of the goal of choosing the We (and something I really hope works out) to normalise them interacting with other sapient. There are such things as wagons and boats they could hire to move.
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An egg layer is the size of an Araknarock Spider and it takes several of them to hold the long term storage of a colony. Add to that all the hunters they would need to feel even remotely safe on a journey (so they will not be naked brains in the wind basically) and I do not think anything like the current cart and ship traffic in this part of the world could take it. And that is not even mentioning how dangerous travel with such obviously exotic and enormous beings would be.
 
Jreengus said:
There is a stated benefit of "if we hire The We they will do the job for eternity" and the response to "What if they don't want to do the job for eternity?" is "They wont have any choice once they start they cant leave" If that doesn't sound sketch and predatory AF to you I don't know what to say.
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'This sessile species of sapient coral will stay in place for the rest of its life if it roots here, let's encourage it'
Does the above sound sketch to you?

Alien beings are alien, actually taking their own biology into consideration when we hire them is not predatory, it is common sense.
 
DragonParadox said:
An egg layer is the size of an Araknarock Spider and it takes several of them to hold the long term storage of a colony. Add to that all the hunters they would need to feel even remotely safe on a journey (so they will not be naked brains in the wind basically) and I do not think anything like the current cart and ship traffic in this part of the world could take it. And that is not even mentioning how dangerous travel with such obviously exotic and enormous beings would be.
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These all sound like practical problems that can be overcome with enough money. Between an entire library worth of librarians salaries plus any extra they can come up with doing stuff like selling silk they can be gotten around.
 
Jreengus said:
There is a stated benefit of "if we hire The We they will do the job for eternity" and the response to "What if they don't want to do the job for eternity?" is "They wont have any choice once they start they cant leave" If that doesn't sound sketch and predatory AF to you I don't know what to say.
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It's not they have no choice, but that choice would make no sense to them.
It's not really part of their psychological makeup.
As someone said, it is like the dwarves deciding to get up and leave because K8P is a silly place.
 
While I don't want the WE to win, I do think that out of everyone they know the implications of their own biologically more then anyone.

If they don't like the idea of ' if you take this job, your in it for the rest of your potentially endless life' they will just say no.

Kind of hope that they just say no. (But that's just my own agenda)
 
DragonParadox said:
'This sessile species of sapient coral will stay in place for the rest of its life if it roots here, let's encourage it'
Does the above sound sketch to you?

Alien beings are alien, actually taking their own biology into consideration when we hire them is not predatory, it is common sense.
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If you replace the we with a coral yes it still seems sketch. The argument is we can take advantage of the We in a certain way to make them eternal slaves forced to work for us for eternity. Doing that through something's biology rather than through external enforcement doesn't make it better.

DragonParadox said:
If you could overcome Warhammer being a death world with enough money the dwarfs would have done it already.
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They have? Are you suggesting that dwarves never leave their karaks because stepping outside results in their instant death?
 
Jreengus said:
These all sound like practical problems that can be overcome with enough money. Between an entire library worth of librarians salaries plus any extra they can come up with doing stuff like selling silk they can be gotten around.
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That actually raises the question of if the We win, do you pay them for all the positions, or for the single person filling them?

To be clear, I'd expect them to get a fair salary either way, probably enough to live on and them some more, the question is whether you'd pay them as if each position they staff is filled by them or if you pay them as a single individual.
 
deathofrats0808 said:
That actually raises the question of if the We win, do you pay them for all the positions, or for the single person filling them?

To be clear, I'd expect them to get a fair salary either way, probably enough to live on and them some more, the question is whether you'd pay them as if each position they staff is filled by them or if you pay them as a single individual.
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Pay them in the food they need so they can spend all their time in the library instead of going out to hunt?
 
Jreengus said:
If you replace the we with a coral yes it still seems sketch. The argument is we can take advantage of the We in a certain way to make them eternal slaves forced to work for us for eternity. Doing that through something's biology rather than through external enforcement doesn't make it better.


They have? Are you suggesting that dwarves never leave their karaks because stepping outside results in their instant death?
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Take advantage right... as opposed to what, work tirelessly to genetically modify the We with magi-tech so they are no longer so constrained? Only then will they know true freedom to accept or reject our library offer.
I hope the above illustrates how patronizing that PoV is to me

I am suggesting dwarfs are not elephant sized beings with an army of lesser bodies that are adapted to subterranean life
 
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I fell like this discussion has gotten away from where it started I'm going to bow out but I want to reiterate my main point is that I don't see how the we would be locked to the library eternally. The morality thing is more a side debate that only really applies if they are locked there forever.

The We can make copies and probably will have to as librarians. The We can change and grow as an indivdual coming to view the sacrifice of some "bodies" (books) as an acceptable price to move. The We will (hopefully) be paid a fair wage for an entire library worth of librarians and can use that to hire whatever they need to move, assuming they aren't just moving to somewhere else in the karak.
 
Dragonofelder said:
I guess it would kinda be stepping a step. Instead of "Give the We money, which they use to buy food" it'd just be "give the We food"
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Sure, but money can be used to buy other things. Which I assume the We also know by virtue of the fact they seem to be buying books already. Not sure if they ever will want to buy things if they have access to loads of books and food, but I think the option should be given.
 
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