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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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SurpriseMe said:
The core of Burning shadows isn't the big problem I have with it. My problem is that it treats "hold off the assault for one day and kill multiple shamans" as a given.

Personally, I think that the mercs will not stick around with time to properly reflect, that this plan will put too much emphasis on Mathilde doing everything, and that expecting us to get multiple hero kills like that is wishful thinking in the extreme.
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I don't get this concern. I really don't.

The mercenaries are in the middle of the mountains. Walking away isn't something they can just trivially do. On top of this, the campaign has gone really well, they've had a massive party, and they will be seeing a massive amount of greenskins being melted right in front of them.* This tends to be the sort of thing that doesn't encourage asking for your pay and buggering off (back across the plains, with their own dangers) over a single day's delay.

If there was a week's delay then I'd agree with you. A week is a long time to think. Or if we try to stretch our objectives again after this. But a day, half of which is probably going to be spent nursing a hangover, seems very unlikley to cause the kind of rebellion you are predicting.

*Side note burning shadows does work on structures, just more slowly than on organics.
 
Alliterate said:
IMO [] Plan Burning Shadows is too complex, too protracted, and relying on Mathilde to do far too much.

Now, Dwarven explosives. They are more predictable- perhaps we can boost their likelihood of working?
Survey, MAP, Boom.
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What.
Arguably Burning shadows is the least complex. The core of it that matters is waiting for a certain time of day and then firing off a single spell the other part of it is a simple scouting for any shaman and then offing them if they exist which they probably don't given Kragg was uncontested in the battle previously. Like Mathilde actually has very little to do in this plan.



Derpmind said:
Plan Burning Shadows relies entirely on Mathilde's ability to scale a mere Moderately Complicated spell to full Battle Magic level. She's never cast a single Battle Magic spell before in her life. I agree that the imagery would be really metal, but to everyone else sitting at the table it sounds incredibly egotistical and risky. Remember: Kragg the Grim is sitting right next to us. Do you believe that Kragg will approve of this plan?
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This is incorrect. The spell in question scales with the size o the shadow automatically according to its description. I've talked about the spell having a battle magic equivalent effect due to the confluence of circumstances allowing for it but that is absolutely not the same thing.
 
Derpmind said:
Plan Burning Shadows relies entirely on Mathilde's ability to scale a mere Moderately Complicated spell to full Battle Magic level. She's never cast a single Battle Magic spell before in her life. I agree that the imagery would be really metal, but to everyone else sitting at the table it sounds incredibly egotistical and risky. Remember: Kragg the Grim is sitting right next to us. Do you believe that Kragg will approve of this plan?
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Why do people keep saying that when it's not true>?

It is a fully normal casting of the Burning Shadows spell. No modification required. BoneyM has confirmed this. It will have the same scale of effect as battle magic would due to being used in near perfect circumstances, but that does nothing to change the fact that it is a absolutely standard casting of the spell. It will be easier to cast it here than when Mathilde was running from the goblins, as she's not in a stressful situation but can take her time to cast it.

This has been repeated so often it's getting rather frustrating to have to keep debunking something I've debunked over five times before now.
 
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Alratan said:
Not if she can't start fires in the first place, or the place is so wet and fungi covered that they don't catch and spread, as seems very likely, as the town still exists despite having greenskins living in it.
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Which is something you keep insisting, but we don't know yet as BoneyM hasn't had the chance to answer the questions as to the wood and potential flamability of the Greenskin town. While you potentially have a point it relies on a lot of conjecture that we are still waiting for an answer to.

Second it probably won't just be Mathilde doing this, the Burn Everything vote also has getting the rangers to help as part of the option. So odds are the finished version of the plan will have the rangers lighting their own fires all over the place which should help the blaze go out of control.
 
SuperSonicSound said:
Like Mathilde actually has very little to do in this plan.
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That's... not accurate.
"Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans."

I'm finding myself quite annoyed at you saying that.

Then, after a night spent casting, infiltrating, sneaking, and assassinating, the Burning Shadows plan hinges on us to casting and maintaining a magic ritual, on a whole building, during a battle?

What did we just get done telling Panoramia? I don't want to think what the possible miscast here would be like.
 
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@BoneyM If ypu're online, can you weigh in on any of these debates? How flammable do we think/know the shantytown to be? How confident is Mathilde in assassinating multiple shaman by herself and using Burning Shadows on a mountain's scale? How much information do dwarven engineers need to tell us where to rig explosives and collapse the entrance?
 
Sinsystems said:
Which is something you keep insisting, but we don't know yet as BoneyM hasn't had the chance to answer the questions as to the wood and potential flamability of the Greenskin town. While you potentially have a point it relies on a lot of conjecture that we are still waiting for an answer to.

Second it probably won't just be Mathilde doing this, the Burn Everything vote also has getting the rangers to help as part of the option. So odds are the finished version of the plan will have the rangers lighting their own fires all over the place which should help the blaze go out of control.
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The key point remans, why would a town inhabited by orcs still be there if it was that flammable?

Also, the Rangers can't cast Doppleganger or Take No Heed. Infiltrating the town to set it on fire will be very, very high risk for them, as they'll be literally lighting beacons telling the orcs where they are. Dwarves don't run fast, so they'll be dead meat if a bunch of of the orcs in town decide to see what scraps are happening to start the fire.

Alliterate said:
That's... not accurate.
"Spend a night before the assault hunting down and assassinating any surviving shamans."

I'm finding myself quite annoyed at you saying that.
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We could probably take this bit out without really compromising anything. I only added it because of people's worries about dispels.

I only included it because it should be easy because of where any still living shamans would be, right on the edge of town and easy meat for a shadow wizard. Orc shamans are even more prone to blowing themselves or other people near them up by accident than humans, so unsurprisingly other greenskins prefer them not to live in the middle of camp. I personally don't think there are any shamans left.
 
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Gingganz said:
I don't quite understand. The way from Grobitown to the Citadel is a broad avenue. How do you want to collapse it?
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We blow up the entrance to the Citadel.
BoneyM said:
Gunpowder charges are simple enough to rig up and the Engineer can make it mostly safe, but without being able to examine the structure they can't give you better than two in three odds of it working to cave in the entrance.
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Hopefully, (@BoneyM ?) use the MAP to give the engineers the information to improve those odds.

Still, I'm very open to ideas to refine and improve Plan Go Commando.
 
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BungieONI said:
Do you have the quote for this on hamd? I'm curious what he said.
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Here, replying to me:

BoneyM said:
I completely misread that the first time. My apologies. Yes, that will work as written.
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also:

BoneyM said:
...I may regret saying this.

But you could Burning Shadows the Citadel. It wouldn't hit those inside, but it would hit anyone approaching it from the caldera until shortly before midday. It would mean delaying the battle until tomorrow morning.

You would need to be physically touching either the Citadel or the shadow it is casting for the entire time you want to maintain the effect.
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People are arguing that a plan the GM himself explicitly said would be possible doesn't work.
 
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Leaked Grey college income sheet:

Imperial funding: 10%
Information Brokerage: 5%
Patents: 5%
Tithes (sans Mathilde): 5%
Mathilde Weber Shanagans: 75%

:V
 
Alliterate said:
We blow up the entrance to the Citadel.
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The idea is to keep the Grobi from entering the Citadel, right? Because I have a hard time seeing how blowing up the entrance to a fortification is going to accomplish it. It will just create a pile of rubble, but I don't think tha pile will be impassible.

On the contrary, I would normally expect blowing up part of the wall of a Citadel to be a method of opening a way so one can storm it.
 
Gingganz said:
The idea is to keep the Grobi from entering the Citadel, right? Because I have a hard time seeing how blowing up the entrance to a fortification is going to accomplish it. It will just create a pile of rubble, but I don't think tha pile will be impassible.

On the contrary, I would normally expect blowing up part of the wall of a Citadel to be a method of opening a way so one can storm it.
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The idea is to stop the grobi charging up from Grobi town and relieving the siege of the Citadel. Simply collapsing the entrance doesn't help enough, as they'll ignore it and go around the sides fo the Citadel to attack our troops on the plateau. We need to block the path up to the plateau, not just the entrance to the fortress.
 
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Gingganz said:
The idea is to keep the Grobi from entering the Citadel, right? Because I have a hard time seeing how blowing up the entrance to a fortification is going to accomplish it. It will just create a pile of rubble, but I don't think tha pile will be impassible.
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I don't know what to say. All I can offer is the information Boney provided.

"Gunpowder charges are simple enough to rig up and the Engineer can make it mostly safe, but without being able to examine the structure they can't give you better than two in three odds of it working to cave in the entrance."

If it's caved in, my interpretation is it's impassable. 🤷

Then the plan has lotus armed Dwarf Rangers sniping early responders, before artillery reaches the Caldera rim.

Can you suggest improvements?
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Now, once we start infiltrating Skaven, who heavily rely on smell, smelling and looking like we are on fire could actually be a better way to blend in than trying to look Skaven without smelling Skaven. :V
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Actually Skaven seem to relie on musk and scents to motivate them into battle... so making a spell that negates all scents in a large area would confuse the hell out of them and screw with their C&C. While MC is the right kind of wizard to invent that spell the problem is it'd be a very specific kind of battle magic outside small encounters.
Humbaba said:
*Edit: Also extremely poorly built, which exacerbates the collapsing issue.
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Plan involves burning down the town and you think the buildings being in disrepair is going to make them harder to put to the torch? Why go inside the buildings at all? These greenskin's typical building style is ramshackle and still standing because public opinion says it should...

Can anyone point to cannon evidence that typical greenskin construction isn't highly flammable?
Varano said:
Is there a reason to not simply try to repeat what she did in Karag Lhune?
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That was a fort that didn't know it was being attacked at all... just kind of imploded once the goblin in charge got sniped and then the trolls ate the gate guards. The second one randomly got overrun by ninjas without warning. Both are specific circumstances that may not be repeatable... plus its kind of obvious after the battles yesterday that there is a scattered army outside.

Haven't actually seen a plan that really address all the random greenskins milling about outside the Citadel.
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Again, I'm for taking care of the left overs from yesterdays battle and getting them all disorganizaed so they can be taken down piece meal and then dealing with the Citadel proper. If its taken great, but bunching up and charging in is what the greenskins tried yesterday. Kind of sucked to be them.
 
Necratoid said:
Can anyone point to cannon evidence that typical greenskin construction isn't highly flammable?
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The fact that their towns exist at all and last more than a day is strong circumstantial evidence that they're basically fireproof, as otherwise the general collateral damage of orc brawls would result in them burning down almost immediately.

Necratoid said:
Again, I'm for taking care of the left overs from yesterdays battle and getting them all disorganizaed so they can be taken down piece meal and then dealing with the Citadel proper. If its taken great, but bunching up and charging in is what the greenskins tried yesterday. Kind of sucked to be them.
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That's partially why my plan focuses on melting the inhabitants of Grobi-Town and less on the Citadel. The dwarves know how to take fortifications.
 
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Alratan said:
The fact that their towns exist at all and last more than a day is strong circumstantial evidence that they're basically fireproof, as otherwise the general collateral damage of orc brawls would result in them burning down almost immediately.
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That seems kind of dubious to me. London was basically a tinderbox irl, yet it went 34 years without a major fire during the leadup to the Great Fire of London. Unless the winds cooperate, fires are unlikely to consume a whole town without outside help.

It'd be entirely on-theme for orcs and goblins to have a quarter of the town burn down every few years and just rebuild each time.

Plus it sounds like a large number of the factors that made London so flammable should be in play here too.

That said, I'm willing to wait for QM confirmation one way or the other, since we're both just speculating at this point.
 
Necratoid said:
Haven't actually seen a plan that really address all the random greenskins milling about outside the Citadel.
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My impression is that all we really need to do is to stop them easily and in numbers swarming into the Citadel (again) to reinforce the defenders.

What we don't know about, are any underground passages from Grobitown direct into the Citadel.
 
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