Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[primemountain]

Didn't they fail to get into the Citadel? That's what I recall, I'll have to check.

Edit:


Yep. Good work memory, you did it!

Anyway we'll also want to be aware of current forces and traps. Stuff like the Troll pit or Skaven holes.

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That was before last night. Here:
"The preliminary scouting Ulthar's rangers performed before they joined the celebrations was successful beyond all expectation, and they had pinpointed the locations where the greenskins had piled bows and arrows and javelins and rocks to help fight off any attacker. A single carefully-aimed volley of cannonfire will remove the capacity for those inside to defend at range, and from there it was simply a matter of assaulting and expelling the severely weakened garrison. "

 

[Alratan]

I suspect that Belegar is not used to leading human troops. Dwarves may be fine fighting a battle the day they wake up at noon after fighting a battle the previous day and drinking all night. Humans very much are not. Their reactions will be slowed and their coordination shot to pieces.

@Alratan
What do you think about the issue of the situation changing, of there being an attack by rival greenskins or Skaven to take the weakened Citadel?

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My view is that the skaven can't organise that fast, and if other greenskins attack then given how amazing the Citadel's defences are they probably won't be able to take it in a day as they won't have dwarven siege weapons.

Even if the skaven can attack, there'll be signs, and we can have a rapid reaction force move in, which we could add to the plan.

 

[Neshuakadal]

It's rare that things line up well enough to allow niche spells to have battle magic equivalent scale with out the risk. I'm shocked people want to give that up

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I mean casting magic is always a risk. Ritual casting is also even a bigger risk. Ritual casting something to the scale of battle magic will be a very risky business. Everything is bigger with ritual casting. The rewards are bigger but so are the consequences if something goes wrong.

Also where are we going to be doing this ritual? Burning shadows states

Mathilde must be casting or touching the shadow in question to cast the spell.

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So how will the ritual work in this case? Can we even start casting the spell before there is a shadow to it cast upon? Will we have to hunker right up to the citadel all night to ritual cast this? Staying awake all night next to a orc infested stronghold ritual casting seems like a bad night to me.

 

[ctulhuslp]

That was before last night. Here:
"The preliminary scouting Ulthar's rangers performed before they joined the celebrations was successful beyond all expectation, and they had pinpointed the locations where the greenskins had piled bows and arrows and javelins and rocks to help fight off any attacker. A single carefully-aimed volley of cannonfire will remove the capacity for those inside to defend at range, and from there it was simply a matter of assaulting and expelling the severely weakened garrison. "

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Noisy. I'd prefer to take Citadel as stealthily as possible.
....
I wonder if we can capture it without making enough noise to alert caldera at all. Seriously doubt that, but idk

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I mean casting magic is always a risk. Ritual casting is also even a bigger risk. Ritual casting something to the scale of battle magic will be a very risky business. Everything is bigger with ritual casting. The rewards are bigger but so are the consequences if something goes wrong.

Also where are we going to be doing this ritual? Burning shadows states


So how will the ritual work in this case? Can we even start casting the spell before there is a shadow to it cast upon? Will we have to hunker right up to the citadel all night to ritual cast this? Staying awake all night next to a orc infested stronghold ritual casting seems like a bad night to me.

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I don't think we have to ritual cast it though? even if we did there's things we can do to mitigate the risk due to the amount of time available to us. You're miunderstanding my point about it being a battle magic scale effect.

This is a confluence of terrain features and timing that allow a non battle magic spell to have a battle magic equivalent effect. The spell shouldn't be any more difficult to cast than normal. It's just the effect will be larger than typical because it's so rare to find a shadow of this size to take advantage of.

 

[Alratan]

I mean casting magic is always a risk. Ritual casting is also even a bigger risk. Ritual casting something to the scale of battle magic will be a very risky business. Everything is bigger with ritual casting. The rewards are bigger but so are the consequences if something goes wrong.

Also where are we going to be doing this ritual? Burning shadows states


So how will the ritual work in this case? Can we even start casting the spell before there is a shadow to it cast upon? Will we have to hunker right up to the citadel all night to ritual cast this? Staying awake all night next to a orc infested stronghold ritual casting seems like a bad night to me.

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Ritual casting is a red herring. It's a purely optional part of the vote that Mathilde will only do is she is confident she can do so reliably. If not, she will use the basic version.

Please do not make it out to be a big issue with the plan, as it is not part of the baseline, only a nice to have Mathilde can elect to do based on her IC knowledge.

 

[WorldSlayer]

The Skaven taking advantage to attack the Greenskins would work out in our favour. If they do that then they're weakening each other to our benefit as we wont have to spend lives to kill either of the forces that die in the mutual annihilation. Again if a green skin force attacks them then they're going to be infighting to our benefit and we can assault the weakened left overs afterwards. I don't think the self made shadow plan is sensible and it gives up a huge terrain advantage.

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What if skaven attack the weakened Dwarfs after they take the Citadel though? We don't know what the underground is like under the Citadel and there might be Skaven waiting to pop up against the weakened forces. What's the plan in Burning Shadows for if this happens?

Moderately Complicated - Magic 3 required to learn, Magic 5 to cast reliably.
K / Burning Shadows: Causes a shadow or set of touching shadows cast by a source as bright as a torch or brighter to burn like acid. You can specify who this will and will not effect.

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Burning Shadows is normally not super far. To hit everyone with our shadow acid attack we can reasonably expect it to be a ritual cast. Mathilde should be able to pull it off and it would be epic if she does but there is a chance she could flub it. I guess there's probably nothing that stops her just trying again though?

But yeah definitely doesn't seem like a normal casting.

Spoiler: Realms of Sorcery

You cause the shadows around you to burn like
acid, inflicting a Damage 3 hit on any enemies within
18 yards (9 squares) of you upon whom a shadow from
any light source as or more powerful than a torch falls
at the moment you cast this spell.

"The preliminary scouting Ulthar's rangers performed before they joined the celebrations was successful beyond all expectation, and they had pinpointed the locations where the greenskins had piled bows and arrows and javelins and rocks to help fight off any attacker. A single carefully-aimed volley of cannonfire will remove the capacity for those inside to defend at range, and from there it was simply a matter of assaulting and expelling the severely weakened garrison. "

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That still doesn't include knowledge of what's inside the Citadel, importantly including up to date knowledge such as if there's a warboss in charge or a troll pit or something. More scouting is always a good thing.

 

[Quest]

Can someone tell me where the idea of a ritual cast came from? I know I argued with that logic, but reading through some of the posts I'm not sure where that came up. It seems like the base spell will work just as well and I'm only against a ritual cast. If that's the case, then I'm still leery about waiting till dawn but much more happy with the spell use. Especially since we have the Black Lotus reagent available to make it even more safe to use.

Can't we do it without waiting? It's near noon and the sun should be overhead, but the citadel might still cast a shadow. We have several other peaks available too. Maybe we can have one of the Ghur Wizards ferry us from peak to peak to get the best casting angle?

 

[SuperSonicSound]

What if skaven attack the weakened Dwarfs after they take the Citadel though? We don't know what the underground is like under the Citadel and there might be Skaven waiting to pop up against the weakened forces.

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This is absolutely a possibility but it's possible regardless of the plan chosen? At least with the burning shadows plan we'll have killed a crap ton of Grobi before the battle occurs and wiped out a bunch of Green skin shamen.

Burning Shadows is normally not super far. To hit everyone with our shadow acid attack we can reasonably expect it to be a ritual cast. Mathilde should be able to pull it off and it would be epic if she does but there is a chance she could flub it. I guess there's probably nothing that stops her just trying again though?

But yeah definitely doesn't seem like a normal casting.

Spoiler: Realms of Sorcery

You cause the shadows around you to burn like
acid, inflicting a Damage 3 hit on any enemies within
18 yards (9 squares) of you upon whom a shadow from
any light source as or more powerful than a torch falls
at the moment you cast this spell.

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Okay I'll grant that we could fail the roll but due to our belt we're pretty damn safe so I don't see why we wouldn't just recast until it happens?

 

[vsh]

Okay I'll grant that we could fail the roll but due to our belt we're pretty damn safe so I don't see why we wouldn't just recast until it happens?

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Or until the greenskin horde overrun us.

 

[Quest]

Burning Shadows is normally not super far. To hit everyone with our shadow acid attack we can reasonably expect it to be a ritual cast. Mathilde should be able to pull it off and it would be epic if she does but there is a chance she could flub it. I guess there's probably nothing that stops her just trying again though?

But yeah definitely doesn't seem like a normal casting.

Spoiler: Realms of Sorcery

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I think it's fine since the GM also suggested the use and confirmed that the plan should work as stated.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Or until the greenskin horde overrun us.

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The spell doesn't take that long to cast and it's well within our casting range. This is a moderate difficulty spell not fiendish. The spell we're talking about takes something like ten seconds to cast in 2E which is the length of a round.

So that's pretty incredibly unlikely. They'd also have to mobilise and be aware of us instantly. Also unlikely.

 

[Neshuakadal]

Ritual casting is a red herring. It's a purely optional part of the vote that Mathilde will only do is she is confident she can do so reliably. If not, she will use the basic version.

Please do not raise it as an issue with the plan, as it is not part of the baseline, only a nice to have Mathilde can elect to do.

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To me it's one of the big problems with the plan. It doesn't matter to me that is not part of the base plan. The fact that it is an option being considered in the plan is a problem. Even if mathilde is confident she could do doesn't mean it would go well. The plan has ritual casting as a possibility. To me that is a problem because the consequences of a ritual going wrong are disastrous.

Mathilde's confidence in doing a ritual does not equate 1 to 1 in how the ritual will actually go. As long as the ritual part is in the plan I will not vote for the plan and I will continue to seek other ways of dealing with the problem.

 

[Necratoid]

Looking at how spread out things are my suggestion would be to not actually plan the main goal of today to be to seizing the Citadel (that would be a tier three objective). What you want to do first is bleed off the numbers from the filthy grobi first and then do objectives as they become available. Prepare bombardment of the lesser siege weapons and leave the cannons in the already taken peak. Set off distractions that draw the main clusters away from your kill force and pick them apart in smaller chunks. The main danger is the greenskins all bunch up and get momentum... so you want to avoid that.

Have the rangers set off gun powder charges away from your forces so parts of the hoard wander off away from the main battle. Have MC burning shadows villages/hovels enmass so they run off to go deal with that. Rage poison snipe random big boyz and start in fighting in the various clusters so they get bogged down away from your guys. Set off explosions that lead a random cluster off to go play with MT troll hoard. Cavalry to death the smaller/isolated groups and withdrawl them so the run at the kill force the run them down from behind. Your goal here is to deplete the greenskin numbers. Its weeks before the reinforcements start coming in anyway and time means your bases are more fortified.

Every idiot fighting you outside the Citadel is one more not fought inside it.

Also, Doom Gliders and greenskin siege weapons are a thing, so you don't want to find out what they have with all your troops bunched up in range. Once you manage to get the flow/tide of greenskins to stop coming out of the Citadel and they stop bunching up for bombardment, that is when you consider rushing into the Citadel. If you deal with whats outside today and then send in the scouts tonight that is a win. If you manage to take the Citadel today grand. If you don't tomorrow is a thing that happens.

Basically, your getting spoiled and prepped for victory disease here. One day sieges aren't a normal thing. If your fighting a comically effective defensive position, get the defenders to leave it before fighting them.

Also stay the hell out of the underground... it limits your ability to bombard things and run them down. Fortify and secure the over land routes, then handle that mess.

 

[Alratan]

Can't we do it without waiting? It's near noon and the sun should be overhead, but the citadel might still cast a shadow. We have several other peaks available too. Maybe we can have one of the Ghur Wizards ferry us from peak to peak to get the best casting angle?

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From what BoneyM said, we need a structure. Parts of the planet don't seem to work, probably for the same reason night doesn't courtly as shadow.

In the afternoon, the shadow of the Citadel points toward us, not towards the Caldera, so the plan can't work. It can only be used in the morning, ideally at daybreak.

To me it's one of the big problems with the plan. It doesn't matter to me that is not part of the base plan. The fact that it is an option being considered in the plan is a problem. Even if mathilde is confident she could do doesn't mean it would go well. The plan has ritual casting as a possibility. To me that is a problem because the consequences of a ritual going wrong are disastrous.

Mathilde's confidence in doing a ritual does not equate 1 to 1 in how the ritual will actually go. As long as the ritual part is in the plan I will not vote for the plan and I will continue to seek other ways of dealing with the problem.

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Your view is that you know more about how Mathilde's magic works than Mathilde does? Ok

I can remove it if other people insist, but it seems a bizarre attitude to take. We used a ritual to hide the gold which was much less critical.

 

[Gul Damar]

I was suprised there were no reaction rolls in how badly Belegar and Kragg would react to Math knowing about the Dawi Zharr, or were those included with the Mork rolls as a general package?

 

[SuperSonicSound]

It's also probably a terrible idea to ask the humans to fight immediately after a lot of them got drunk and went on a bender. Dwarves might not suffer hangovers but humans absolutely do.

 

[WorldSlayer]

This is absolutely a possibility but it's possible regardless of the plan chosen? At least with the burning shadows plan we'll have killed a crap ton of Grobi before the battle occurs and wiped out a bunch of Green skin shamen.

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Aha! This is where you're wrong. For the masterfully written Plan Slayer has taken this into account! It includes proper scouting which will reduce the risk of Skaven attack.
For example if we spot skaven in position to attack we can wait until they're done attacking the greenskins and then go after the weakened forces or alternatively be prepared for the Skaven attack and be able to take them on with reduced risk.

The spell doesn't take that long to cast and it's well within our casting range. This is a moderate difficulty spell not fiendish. The spell we're talking about takes something like ten seconds to cast in 2E which is the length of a round.

So that's pretty incredibly unlikely. They'd also have to mobilise and be aware of us instantly. Also unlikely.

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The citadel's shadow can be weaponized for sure but I'm not sure how easily done it can be.

I either misread what you said or got it mixed up with someone else and reached the conclusion that the plan was to stand on a mountain peak and snipe with Mathilde's personal shadow. Your plan would work as written, the Citadel's shadow can be weaponized.

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Seems a bit ambiguous on the difficulty.

On the other hand Mathilde could potentially just keep casting it until she's exhausted. Why acid burn greenskins once when you can do it half a dozen times. Shame it's not good on inanimate objects and they'll be quick to take shelter though. Should keep their heads down at least.

 

[Neshuakadal]

From what BoneyM said, we need a structure. Parts of the planet don't seem to work, probably for the same reason night doesn't courtly as shadow.

In the afternoon, the shadow of the Citadel points toward us, not towards the Caldera, so the plan can't work. It can only be used in the morning, ideally at daybreak.


Your view is that you know more about how Mathilde's magic works than Mathilde does? Ok

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That is not what I said at all.

What I said is that Mathilde's confidence in her ability does not 1 to 1 relate to the end result of the spell. That black orc shaman was likely pretty confident in the ritual he was making. Mathilde was confident in her ability with magic dart yet things went wrong very quickly. There is a world outside of Mathilde's ability after all. Believing that everything will go perfectly with no complications is how things go bad very quickly.

 

[Alratan]

Or until the greenskin horde overrun us.

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This is a spell Mathilde successfully cast while running away from the goblins after assassinating their boss.

Also, Mathilde can have already cast a Shadowsteed and be ready to jump on if she needs to bug out. She can also probably cast it out of line of sight of the bottom of the Caldera and of the inside of the Citadel right at the base of the wall, but those are things we shouldn't need to micromanage.

 

[ctulhuslp]

I mean, we have Kragg for large scale battle casting, he probably can clean up hordes better than Mathilde.

Mathilde is best assassin/scout of expedition, best use her in that role and leave going loud, fortifying and clearing out waves to other people.

Edit: kill some war bosses, plant explosives, provoke fights via Bewilder and Take No Heed or whatnot. Set shantytown on fire and plant explosives in other end of it. Start false rumours of large dwarf attack from opposite direction.

Using shadow to overcast acid shadow is probably just going to pale compared to Kragg's battle magic.

 

[Alratan]

@BoneyM, is it possible for us to know how hard the roll to cast Burning Shadows ritually is (with plentiful Black Lotus, if that helps)? Or is it not IC knowledge?

I mean, we have Kragg for large scale battle casting, he probably can clean up hordes better than Mathilde.

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We want Kragg to save his arsenal for emergencies. Once he's used a rune it's gone as far as we're concerned, and we don't know how many he has left.

There's also a chance that his anvil is in the shop out of commission to prevent the fracture getting worse.

 

[ichypa]

As long as she doesn't jump into the middle of any other godly squabbles, she'll be fine. So I fully expect her to do it again by the end of the week."

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He knows us so well already.

WAIT

We set the town on fire then, start killing gobbos while on fire.
Inefficient? Yes
Cool as all hell? Also yes

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Wait, what if we set ourselves on fire, survive because we're immune to it, and then just run through Grobi Town setting fire to everything we touch?

 

[Alratan]

That is not what I said at all.

What I said is that Mathilde's confidence in her ability does not 1 to 1 relate to the end result of the spell. That black orc shaman was likely pretty confident in the ritual he was making. Mathilde was confident in her ability with magic dart yet things went wrong very quickly. There is a world outside of Mathilde's ability after all. Believing that everything will go perfectly with no complications is how things go bad very quickly.

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That applies to literally any plan and any choice we make, as Mathilde makes the fine grained decisions about how to implement them herself; and that can include spellcasting, even ritual spellcasting, without explicit instructions to do so.

 

[Xilentxium]

Wait, what if we set ourselves on fire, survive because we're immune to it, and then just run through Grobi Town setting fire to everything we touch?

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Grobi can't get you if you're on fire