Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Glau]

@LadyLynn , as far as I can tell it's a desire to have exclusive credit and control, and a desire for all the research to be done by Mathilde's hands rather than just learning about the results later. I'm in favor of handing it off for others to research, ideally using access to it as a recruitment bonus for WEB-MAT.

can Mathilde cast necromancer spell with Ulgu and make someone immortal by using not dhar but pure Ulgu in said spell? After all she already adapted one necromancer spell as Matrix

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As far as we know now, no, but that's largely because Dhar and ulgu behave very differently in how they interact with living things and other winds. The adoption of the earlier spell was almost blocked by having to manually construct a superstructure to hold the internal spell rarity than just relying on Dhar stickiness to tack it in place, so my bet is immortality has similar disjunctions.

Overall though, it should be possible from the hints given to us by Cython.

 

[ReImagined]

I have finally reached most recent update in my reading through this magnificent story and started on omajes!

And because of reading omakes and how often Liber Mortis mentioned in them and watching Highlander I had seen a dream... and now I have a question to those more deep in the lore and mechanics of the this fantastic world - can Mathilde cast necromancer spell with Ulgu and make someone immortal by using not dhar but pure Ulgu in said spell? After all she already adapted one necromancer spell as Matrix

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Welcome aboard!

I'm pretty sure making vampires that don't rely on Dhar would be a task just as big as the Waystone Project.

 

[Centergg]

Snip

Click to shrink...

I was talking about pure Ulgu.
We saw what pure Shyish can make undead. The Shyish concentrated rised skeletons and other things in Sylvania.
In Highlander I saw, after this story, what a human overflowing with lightning magic is Immortal.
Because of that I thought - what happened if someone was sustained not by dhar or Shyish or lightning but by Ulgu?

 

[LadyLynn]

Back during the K8P days, every time we had a chance to propose AV to Belegar as our next task, people shot it down. I was on the pro-AV side, so I undoubtedly have a very biased memory of those arguments, but you can find them if you search and judge the OOC reasoning for yourself.

In-character, I think it's mostly a combination of the daemonology thing and also the fact that Mathilde literally can't outsource a lot of this. When we asked Boney about using Max and Johann for some of the AV actions back in K8P, we were told that their senses just weren't up to Mathilde snuff for detecting some of the magical interactions going on -- and we saw that ourselves, that time Johann was stuck on the Ratling Gun for a long time until Mathilde unblocked him with her better Windsight. So AV is mostly a Mathilde-only show by practical necessity as well as by political necessity, which slows our pace down a lot.

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I see, thank you!

Was this before or after Johann got better Windsight?

I'd definitely be in favor of making AV more a WEB-MAT thing if WEB-MAT is able to help.

 

[ReImagined]

I was talking about pure Ulgu.
We saw what pure Shyish can make undead. The Shyish concentrated rised skeletons and other things in Sylvania.
In Highlander I saw, after this story, what a human overflowing with lightning magic is Immortal.
Because of that I thought - what happened if someone was sustained not by dhar or Shyish or lightning but by Ulgy?

Click to shrink...

Pure Shyish doesn't make undead, you need the Dhar to subvert the properties of the Shyish.
Being suffused with a wind and having incredible longevity is what Cython was talking about, but that's less of a spell and more of a state of being.

 

[Codex]

Pure Shyish doesn't make undead, you need the Dhar to subvert the properties of the Shyish.
Being suffused with a wind and having incredible longevity is what Cython was talking about, but that's less of a spell and more of a state of being.

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Example of this being Elspeth von Draken, who doesn't look all that old for a woman who might be a century+ old.

 

[Glau]

And to build on that, the default path to getting to that point is to acquire arcane marks, which are physical reflections of your soul getting innundated with a particular wind.

 

[Altom]

[x] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
- [x] One Overwork Action
- [x] COIN: The Father
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
- [x] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Tindomiel)
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
- [x] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
- [x] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)
[x] Plan: No Recruitment with Arcane (Marks and Spells)
- [x] One Overwork
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Red Rider)
- [x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Ring of Sudden Dawn, Take No Heed/Radiant Gaze)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-- [x] Coin: The Gambler
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Mantle of Mist)
- [x] Attempt to finish off the Grey College spellbook by learning Shadow of Death, Cloak Activity, and the MAPP.
- [x] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
- [x] The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books
- [x] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms Book
[x] Plan: No Recruitment
- [x] One Overwork
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
- [x] WEB-MAT: Hunt an apparition with a member of WEB-MAT (Johann, Red Rider)
- [x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Ring of Sudden Dawn, Take No Heed/Radiant Gaze)
- [x] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
- [x] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
- [x] Investigate how the Vitae reacts to a power stone.
- [x] Attempt to codify Rite of Way so that others can learn it.
- [x] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
- [x] The many legends about the amount of books contained within and under Castle Drakenhof still haunt you. Organize an expedition to mine the ruins for books
- [x] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms Book

 

[Rafin]

We saw what pure Shyish can make undead. The Shyish concentrated rised skeletons and other things in Sylvania.

Click to shrink...

You must have mixed up something. It's the Dhar that makes undead rise on their own. Shyish makes risen dead lay down again.

Pure Shyish doesn't make undead, you need the Dhar to subvert the properties of the Shyish.

Click to shrink...

I'm actually not sure that you need Shyish to get naturally occuring undead under nobody's control. Sure, classical necromancy done by a professional uses Shyish tongs to manipulate Dhar and thereby colors the Dhar to be more Shyish flavored and favors doing stuff with dead and death, but it's mostly the Dhar that makes a mockery of the natural order. But maybe undeath does need a Dhar-Shyish mixture and dead people are Shyish-attracting enough that a sufficient concentration of Dhar and Winds not sucked up by Waystones just raises the dead anyway. I'm curious what Sylvania levels of Dhar then would independently do in a place that really attracts a different Wind.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Over 24 hours later, I have finally caught up with the thread. I'm probably far too late now, but I wanted to ask anyone planning to use the Father to use a Library action to reach out to the Verenans in some capacity.

Verena's not the most likely candidate - she's supposed to be Shallya's mother. But that doesn't necessarily rule her out entirely. Time is funky in the Realm of Chaos (consider the competing, mutually exclusive timelines of Gods we've come across), and if you told me that a God ended up as their own grandparent I might believe it. There's also the fact that the entire Daughter hunt is predicated on the concealment of family ties; covering up the truth with a deception seems entirely plausible.

It's a bit of a long shot, but it's one that's essentially free to test, if we reorder our plans to go for a Verenan library on the turn we use the Father, which seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[Rafin]

Over 24 hours later, I have finally caught up with the thread. I'm probably far too late now, but I wanted to ask anyone planning to use the Father to use a Library action to reach out to the Verenans in some capacity.

Verena's not the most likely candidate - she's supposed to be Shallya's mother. But that doesn't necessarily rule her out entirely. Time is funky in the Realm of Chaos (consider the competing, mutually exclusive timelines of Gods we've come across), and if you told me that a God ended up as their own grandparent I might believe it. There's also the fact that the entire Daughter hunt is predicated on the concealment of family ties; covering up the truth with a deception seems entirely plausible.

It's a bit of a long shot, but it's one that's essentially free to test, if we reorder our plans to go for a Verenan library on the turn we use the Father, which seems like a no-brainer to me.

Click to shrink...

I say we do that when we approach the Damsels or other Lady worshippers again. Because going to the Verenans before opening the Library, mining Drakenhof and checking up on Karak Vlag seems like a hard sell to me.

 

[Glau]

I'm sort of counting on the bank shot- we're likely to recruit library staff and that should include Verenaians, so hopefully we'll get a chance to test this.

 

[Sparsebeard]

I'd like to both try and unlock the trade with Laurelorn and get the balls rolling as fast as possible for the Library to be fully operationnal as soon as possible. Which is why my plan has two actions for both EIC and KAU, I think it's worth it to do both now to reap the benefits as soon as possible rather than space up our actions.

For the Laurelorn trade, the motivation is evident, we are spending more than we gain and are in a great position to corner the market for Laurelorn Imports/Exports (or at least take the lead). My plan is to insert the EIC in Nordland since they are throne of the most likely obstacles to trade between the Eonir and the Empire, but also there is already a road from Tor Lithanel to Nordland's capital and trade by sea is also possible. There is also the fact that if we can solve the Nordland issue, our employer is bound to be pleased (and solving problems that are plaguing our employers is kind of our thing).

So I want to infiltrate Nordland AND investigate trade goods so that we are ready to set up trade next turn if possible. Another benefit of iniltrating Nordland is that we might get advance information if the Elector Count decides to do something stupid. Boney keeps bringing up Nordland's discontent and I wouldn't want to ignore the warnings...

As for the library, I'd like to do both scribes and librarians this turn. Narratively, the actions go well together and might involve the same type of people. And since many scribes options might take some time to activate, I'd like to get started as soon as possible.

[X] Plan Commerce and Books
-[X] One Overwork Action
-[X] COIN: The Father
-[X] WEB-MAT: Hire someone as a full-time Gyrocopter pilot (Adela)
-[X] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[X] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Haléthan Hedgewise)
-[X] Branulhune's ability to disappear and reappear at a thought allows entirely new forms of combat. Continue to work on them.
-[X] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[X] EIC: Insert agents into a particular province, cult, company, or institution to start gathering their secrets. (Nordland)
-[X] KAU: Decide who your library staff will consist of, and go about recruiting them.
-[X] KAU: Go about recruiting an army of scribes so you can start copying entire libraries of material.
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book: Windsoak Mushrooms (1/2)

 

[picklepikkl]

I see, thank you!

Was this before or after Johann got better Windsight?

I'd definitely be in favor of making AV more a WEB-MAT thing if WEB-MAT is able to help.

Click to shrink...

Both, though AFAICT he didn't get better windsight in the sense of being more attuned to magical phenomena (the way Mathilde went from regular Windsight to Windreader to Windsage), but rather in the sense of the ability to use his existing windsight to substitute for mundane sight.

So I want to infiltrate Nordland AND investigate trade goods so that we are ready to set up trade next turn if possible. Another benefit of iniltrating Nordland is that we might get advance information if the Elector Count decides to do something stupid. Boney keeps bringing up Nordland's discontent and I wouldn't want to ignore the warnings...

Click to shrink...

The problem here is that the EIC has no presence whatsoever in Nordland, so our normal spy network is completely incapable here. This is what people were arguing last turn with regard to using the EIC to scout Ostermark -- I thought it would be fine anyway, and it turned out that they were right and I was completely wrong. I think this is part of what the people who want the Hochlander to have an HQ are angling for: if he can recruit and train agents that aren't bound to our normal structure of "EIC merchant who gets up to extracurricular activities, like spying directly or being a handler for local informants," we may be able to penetrate places we otherwise can't get good intel on.

 

[Codex]

Both, though AFAICT he didn't get better windsight in the sense of being more attuned to magical phenomena (the way Mathilde went from regular Windsight to Windreader to Windsage), but rather in the sense of the ability to use his existing windsight to substitute for mundane sight.

Click to shrink...

He got better Windsight, but not in the traditional sense like Mathilde. He had a higher bonus on the Waystone investigation roll than Mathilde because he's a living compass for example. It's situational though, and might not prove all that useful for AV.

 

[MooseHowl]

[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT with Book Mine
[X] Plan Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire AP, AV Enchantment
[X] Father and Foundations Deluxe
[X] Foundational Farms and Enchanting
[X] Plan Don't Disregard WEBMAT, Acquire More AP (Fatherless)
[X] Plan Who's Your Father

Skimming down the list, this bunch of plans look like they meet my relatively simple criteria: 1, Tindomiel. 2, either trying out The Father or Apparition binding.

But the Elfses are the important bit, yeess.

 

[Briefvoice]

I'll try this again. I would really like everyone to think twice about trying to recruit the Hedgewise. Not just because you want the Coin on another face, but because I think having them in on Lay the Foundations is a bad idea. It's too much open recognition, especially in front of representatives of other colleges and a bunch of foreign magic users. Sure the elves don't care at all, but there are a lot of eyes here. Do we really want word spreading out the international community that the Hedgewise were brought in as a co-equal contributor, sitting at the table and acting like they're legitimate?

Yes, Algard seemed to think it could be managed, but that was with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If they're to be brought in, bring them in later as just another resources. I don't want them in our Foundations.

 

[Robotninja]

I have finally reached most recent update in my reading through this magnificent story and started on omajes!

And because of reading omakes and how often Liber Mortis mentioned in them and watching Highlander I had seen a dream... and now I have a question to those more deep in the lore and mechanics of the this fantastic world - can Mathilde cast necromancer spell with Ulgu and make someone immortal by using not dhar but pure Ulgu in said spell? After all she already adapted one necromancer spell as Matrix

Click to shrink...

Try it and find out.

But most likely no. Non Dhar based vampires would be a megaproject of absurd complexity that honestly is not even worth it when we put that effort into figuring out reliable Wind based ascension programs to get to the next level of human wizardry.

Or get some sort of control or influence over arcane marks and then turn them from a curse into a blessing.

 

[A_Somebody]

[X] Plan No Recruitment
[X] Foundational Farms and Enchanting

I admit to some confusion at AV powerstones being a non-WEBMAT project. I got the impression powerstones require someone to carefully shepherd winds into solid form. Since AV is all the winds and we've repeatedly seen that human mages can't really handle more than one, I thought this specifically could use casters from other winds to make reduce risk.

Nobody uses the library yet. The We do occasionally request books, but giving up a book after they have it is conceptually similar to death for them, so books are purchased for them out of their accumulated silk funds.

Click to shrink...

Apologies if I'm reading too much, but does that mean the We's "social education" is more or less done, or to the point everyone involved thinks they can make educated consent/decisions on selling their incredibly valuable silk and using it to buy stuff other than direct necessities???? If so yeessssss the glorious spiders advancement!

 

[CrimsonOddball]

I'll try this again. I would really like everyone to think twice about trying to recruit the Hedgewise. Not just because you want the Coin on another face, but because I think having them in on Lay the Foundations is a bad idea. It's too much open recognition, especially in front of representatives of other colleges and a bunch of foreign magic users. Sure the elves don't care at all, but there are a lot of eyes here. Do we really want word spreading out the international community that the Hedgewise were brought in as a co-equal contributor, sitting at the table and acting like they're legitimate?

Yes, Algard seemed to think it could be managed, but that was with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If they're to be brought in, bring them in later as just another resources. I don't want them in our Foundations.

Click to shrink...

There's a bit of a fallacy in the reasoning here
Not on the potential risks of recruiting the Hedgewise, weighing whether or not that's worth it is its own thing
But on the specific idea that squeezing them in before the foundations are set up is somehow inherently more risky than later

The Waystone Project as it exists right now has the least amount of attention that it will ever get, unless it outright fails, because it literally hasn't done anything yet
That's the reason outside groups have to be bribed with a bit of quid pro quo before they offer resources on board, instead of actually seeking an in to the project of their own initiative
That's the reason we have yet to be confronted with any opposition, despite expecting it from the outset from the Sigmarites and Nordland
Eyes on the Waystone Project will only grow in number and scrutiny as we progress and actually produce tangible results, so saying that the Hedgewise are too risky to bring in right now, but will somehow become less risky to bring in later doesn't make a lot of sense

If you don't think that the Hedgewise can contribute anything worth the trouble of bringing them in, or that Algard's suggested excuse for Hedgewise involvement won't work, then fine
But that's an argument for refusing to bring them in at all
Bringing the Hedgewise in later doesn't make the action any safer, it just makes integrating their insights harder

 

[picklepikkl]

I admit to some confusion at AV powerstones being a non-WEBMAT project. I got the impression powerstones require someone to carefully shepherd winds into solid form. Since AV is all the winds and we've repeatedly seen that human mages can't really handle more than one, I thought this specifically could use casters from other winds to make reduce risk.

Click to shrink...

This isn't the "make AV into a powerstone" action, which we cannot take because we don't know how to make powerstones. This is "study what happens when they interact with one another." We bought a Crystal Mist back in 2483 for this purpose -- we then bought another to use for enchanting our robes, but the original is still kicking around in our inventory.

Apologies if I'm reading too much, but does that mean the We's "social education" is more or less done, or to the point everyone involved thinks they can make educated consent/decisions on selling their incredibly valuable silk and using it to buy stuff other than direct necessities???? If so yeessssss the glorious spiders advancement!

Click to shrink...

Happened a while ago:

The We are your next major concern, and you check in with the Priestess who has been working amongst them for the past year. Her main concern and the first thing she reports is that although she hasn't quite managed to convert them to Esmerelda, she has managed to conceptually extend their fundamental communalism into an appreciation for more artificial collectives, and that based on this understanding it has requested to become part of the Karak-We. You're still not entirely sure how that would technically work, but you're pleased with the development nonetheless. What you see as a more significant development is that the Priestess has managed to communicate, in one form or another, the concepts required for them to enter into an informed trade relationship. From the understanding that the Karak-We-Not-We were unable to produce silk of their own, they were able to grasp the idea that the unique labour of their stomach and their spinnerets had added value to the protein they had digested, and therefore that silk was more valuable than the protein that eating it would provide. The obvious question from there is 'how much more valuable', and the We had considered and ultimately rejected a great deal of economic theory in favour of a much more easy to grasp 'twice as valuable'. Twice the weight in protein, or roughly eight times it in live animals.

Click to shrink...

There's a bit of a fallacy in the reasoning here
Not on the potential risks of recruiting the Hedgewise, weighing whether or not that's worth it is its own thing
But on the specific idea that squeezing them in before the foundations are set up is somehow inherently more risky than later

The Waystone Project as it exists right now has the least amount of attention that it will ever get, unless it outright fails, because it literally hasn't done anything yet
That's the reason outside groups have to be bribed with a bit of quid pro quo before they offer resources on board, instead of actually seeking an in to the project of their own initiative
That's the reason we have yet to be confronted with any opposition, despite expecting it from the outset from the Sigmarites and Nordland
Eyes on the Waystone Project will only grow in number and scrutiny as we progress and actually produce tangible results, so saying that the Hedgewise are too risky to bring in right now, but will somehow become less risky to bring in later doesn't make a lot of sense

If you don't think that the Hedgewise can contribute anything worth the trouble of bringing them in, or that Algard's suggested excuse for Hedgewise involvement won't work, then fine
But that's an argument for refusing to bring them in at all
Bringing the Hedgewise in later doesn't make the action any safer, it just makes integrating their insights harder

Click to shrink...

This is well-said. I think right now is the easiest time to slip in "Magister Grey" or whatever other cover identity they use under the radar. And the Empire is literally the only polity that cares.

 

[MooseHowl]

I'll try this again. I would really like everyone to think twice about trying to recruit the Hedgewise. Not just because you want the Coin on another face, but because I think having them in on Lay the Foundations is a bad idea. It's too much open recognition, especially in front of representatives of other colleges and a bunch of foreign magic users. Sure the elves don't care at all, but there are a lot of eyes here. Do we really want word spreading out the international community that the Hedgewise were brought in as a co-equal contributor, sitting at the table and acting like they're legitimate?

Yes, Algard seemed to think it could be managed, but that was with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If they're to be brought in, bring them in later as just another resources. I don't want them in our Foundations.

Click to shrink...

The project has four Imperial Colleges involved. To outside observers (at least those who care and don't automatically think mages are bad), this project appears to be normal College work: evaluating disorganized magic-users for their suitability to join the Colleges.

Involving the Hedgewise is showing them respect and recognition, yes. They are entitled to it, due to their millennia of history. I don't think denying them that is healthy or diplomatic. Many Wizards of the Grey College, and presumably some of the other Colleges, are former Hedgewise (Kurtis counts double, maybe triple). Being respectful to their families and history is smart, even as we work to build a stronger, safer, integrated magical paradigm.

Hedgewise are still better regarded than Wizards in some parts of the Empire.

 

[Briefvoice]

But on the specific idea that squeezing them in before the foundations are set up is somehow inherently more risky than later

Click to shrink...

Yes, that is exactly what I think. If you think differently, that is a difference of opinion not a "fallacy".

The Waystone Project as it exists right now has the least amount of attention that it will ever get, unless it outright fails, because it literally hasn't done anything yet
That's the reason outside groups have to be bribed with a bit of quid pro quo before they offer resources on board, instead of actually seeking an in to the project of their own initiative
That's the reason we have yet to be confronted with any opposition, despite expecting it from the outset from the Sigmarites and Nordland
Eyes on the Waystone Project will only grow in number and scrutiny as we progress and actually produce tangible results, so saying that the Hedgewise are too risky to bring in right now, but will somehow become less risky to bring in later doesn't make a lot of sense

Click to shrink...

It makes sense to me. There's little attention now, but people have memories. If this amounts to anything, "how it started" will be a story. "Who was in the room" will be remembered. I don't want the story to be that the Hedgewise were sitting across from Thorek and representatives from the Light College and Jade College and the Grey Colleges.

Bringing them in later and it's easier not to make a big deal out of it. Though we can also figure out if we even need them first. If things seem to be going well, maybe we'll have better things to do.

Involving the Hedgewise is showing them respect and recognition, yes. They are entitled to it, due to their millennia of history. I don't think denying them that is healthy or diplomatic. Many Wizards of the Grey College, and presumably some of the other Colleges, are former Hedgewise (Kurtis counts double, maybe triple). Being respectful to their families and history is smart, even as we work to build a stronger, safer, integrated magical paradigm.

Click to shrink...

I think we can show them "respect" without bringing them into Lay the Foundations, if they end up being necessary at all.

 

[BeepSmile]

Nobody uses the library yet. The We do occasionally request books, but giving up a book after they have it is conceptually similar to death for them, so books are purchased for them out of their accumulated silk funds.

Click to shrink...

I keep staring at this and longer I look the more questions arise. Naturally "I haven't developed this aspect of worldbuilding right now" is an expected answer, especially since we've not interacted with the We in a very long time.

In my view, the We are a hive-mind that emerges from the interactions (links) a sufficient number of individual spiders (nodes) of the right types. So I had imagined books as being auxiliary storage for information - just an external hard drive, not so much an attachment or extension of their mind/personhood.

This is intensely cool.

I am wondering though - what happens if the We get two prints of the same book? Is the second treated as worthless/backup-at-most, or do both have value beyond that, despite having the same information?

 

[DragonParadox]

I'll try this again. I would really like everyone to think twice about trying to recruit the Hedgewise. Not just because you want the Coin on another face, but because I think having them in on Lay the Foundations is a bad idea. It's too much open recognition, especially in front of representatives of other colleges and a bunch of foreign magic users. Sure the elves don't care at all, but there are a lot of eyes here. Do we really want word spreading out the international community that the Hedgewise were brought in as a co-equal contributor, sitting at the table and acting like they're legitimate?

Yes, Algard seemed to think it could be managed, but that was with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If they're to be brought in, bring them in later as just another resources. I don't want them in our Foundations.

Click to shrink...

I mean what are they going to do, argue with the Queen about it? This is not the Empire and this is not an Imperial project. I think it is worth keeping in mind that the people who would be 'told' in this instance are the same people who know that there is very little difference between say a member of the Hedgewise and one of the Hags, one has a state behind them and the other does not, but there is no more,likelihood o dark magic. So I guess the question then becomes do we trust the Jades and the Lights to have basic common sense?