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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Lupercal said:
We are no more prone to possession them we ever have been. Mork influenced us because we got in the middle of a massive ritual and disrupted it through brutal cunning. It is extramely unlikely to happen again and we were no more likely to suffer it than anyone else would have been.
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I'm actually not sure that's true. We know that Mork left a hole in our soul, since that's what Ranald used. It's possible that that was something of a "door" that Ranald could close behind him, but given the way that orcs usually approach problems, it's equally possible that they "kicked down a wall" that has to heal on its own.

Moreover, now that we've come to the dark gods attention, we're probably a more likely target for future fuckery.
 
Lupercal said:
We are no more prone to possession them we ever have been. Mork influenced us because we got in the middle of a massive ritual and disrupted it through brutal cunning. It is extramely unlikely to happen again and we were no more likely to suffer it than anyone else would have been.
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Mork possessed Mathilde and used her as his glove puppet and mouthpiece. He spoke through her.

We have no idea what the consequences are and whether it left behind a vulnerability to her being used again, and neither does Mathilde. The dwarves probably don't know either. All they're know is that something they didn't previous consider as a realistic possibility to be one, and they've no way at all of knowing how likely it is to recur.
 
It's too late, there's just nobody left who can argue effectively in a way that won't get dismissed as WRONG and TERRIBLE, while the "Tell everything the problems don't exist and the citations don't matter because we can come up with a reason to dismiss them" lobby has plenty of gas left in their tanks because they have righteous fury and objective correctness and logic backing them apparently. (Given how none of their arguments are wrong after all and they're all correct objectively and absolutely.)

Whatever, I've quite literally been up all night watching this teeter around, and now that more people are waking up to spew bile at how objectively wrong it is to not spill everything and how our opinions are filthy and incorrect and logically unsound because clearly it's only a good thing and we must accept our penance for being in the wrong place at the wrong time whatever it is, if I remain I'm going to get infracted I expect.
 
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This whole discussion has been tiresome and near impossible to follow.
My own concern regarding disclosing Mork possession is mostly around it denting Belegars perception of Mathildes reliability.
Might he start wondering- if she's been possessed by Mork once, can it happen again? Is Mork listening in to the War Council via Mathilde now? Even if we still trust what she says, should we exclude her from planning meetings?

Like all the other rampant speculation offered for the positions, I've no way of knowing whether this is likely. But it is something I worry about.
 
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Alratan said:
We have no idea what the consequences are and whether it left behind a vulnerability to her being used again, and neither does Mathilde. The dwarves probably don't know either. All they're know is that something they didn't previous consider as a realistic possibility to be one, and they've no way at all of knowing how likely it is to recur.
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If that's the case, then there are two people Mathilde needs to speak with until she can get into contact with Heideck:

Kragg the Grim, and Grandmaster Wulfhart.

Mathilde having no idea what the consequences are is justification for Mathidle to seek urgent spiritual counseling from the experts.


Redshirt Army said:
Moreover, now that we've come to the dark gods attention, we're probably a more likely target for future fuckery.
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That's all the more reason for a responsible Mathilde to seek spiritual help ASAP as opposed to keeping it to herself! Mathilde remaining silent under this logic is a case of the Idiot Ball.
 
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Andmeuths said:
But the trigger is not unknown. Mathilde fully knows what the trigger was.
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Mathilde knows what the trigger was last time. She has literally no information on what other possible triggers there are. A single observation gives no information on the probability distribution of that event happening beyond the fact that it's possible.
 
Garlak said:
Y'know what, I'm not sure we should care if the Dwarfs might-or-might-not send an expedition somewhere in 300 or 3000 flipping years.

I don't think that's any of our business or our responsibility what they do with that information. They're grown-ass adults, not children, if they want to declare a grudge or plan a campaign, they can decide that without us even taking the choice from them. And if they do or don't, that's their business. If they decide that it's too dangerous and unwieldy to even attempt before they've reclaimed every Karak, well, that's just what they'll do. ... Bluntly put, I don't think it's even something we should care about OOC. I certainly don't -- and just... can't muster up any speck of interest or enthusiasm about the idea.

Now, if we had reason to suspect that they'd drop everything and Leeroy at the newest-revealed problem... or if we were sharing secrets that might cause them to get super-ultra-mad at Ulthuan, then I'd probably care and prefer keeping quiet...

Although (and I've only skimmed a page or two) I hadn't seen the "What if Kragg thinks we're possessed by Mork? Eh? Eh? What then?" idea coming. That was, uh, a thing. I mean, if I were worrying about that, if I thought it a genuine concern, I'd probably want a Dwarf Runelord to look me over just to make sure but hey. =/
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Given how chief rationale for refusing to talk seems to be "what if they throw a tantrum despite us being a Dwarf Friend and having been consistently useful and saving hundreds or even thousands of dwarf lives?", I don't think people understand that dwarfs are not, in fact, children with particularly poor impulse control.
 
I forgot to mentioned, Mathilde also has to tell her grey college about what happened, not informing them is unwise, witholding vital info and not doing her duty, This can probably increased Ranald's standing within the college and Mathilde's peers and fellow grey wizards.
 
Andmeuths said:
If that's the case, then there are two people Mathilde needs to speak with until she can get into contact with Heideck:

Kragg the Grim, and Grandmaster Wulfhart.

Mathilde having no idea what the consequences are is justification for Mathidle to seek urgent spiritual counseling from the experts.





That's all the more reason for a responsible Mathilde to seek spiritual help ASAP as opposed to keeping it to herself! Mathilde remaining silent under this logic is a case of the Idiot Ball.
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oh, and also this
Mathilde has no fucking clue what any of that means. This means she must seek counsel of an expert in such matters, unless she fears the answer more than she fears the results.

Our chief choices are Head Priest and Kragg, for different reasons.

Not talking to either means Mathilde prizes not talking about the events more than...ensuring that she is not some kind of weird half-orc now?
Which sounds like a very very weird sense of priorities to my ears.

edit: i mean, I would get it if it were Witch Hunters and possession by Chaos Gods, but it is not them and possession by Mork just flat out does not happen. What happened probably was us hijacking Story of Mork's Prophet, and I think someone with more theological chops can figure that out.
 
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Andmeuths said:
If that's the case, then there are two people Mathilde needs to speak with until she can get into contact with Heideck:

Kragg the Grim, and Grandmaster Wulfhart.

Mathilde having no idea what the consequences are is justification for Mathidle to seek urgent spiritual counseling from the experts.
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We've already had it confirmed by BoneyM that Kragg would be insulted by the idea that his knowledge of dwarven applied theology based on his experience as a dwarf and priest of a Living Ancestor was relevant to Greenskin applied theology.

In character, Mathilde probably has no idea that he's a priest. This isn't an IC reason to speak to Kragg the Grim about how she was used as an avatar of the will of one of the three entities that he hates most in all of existence and non-existence.

IC, why would Mathilde think that being a dwarf Rune smith wig their mechanistic use of programmed enchantments meant you had a deep understanding of the nature of the divine. That's not her understanding of what it means to be an expert in arcane magic.
 
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Andmeuths said:
If that's the case, then there are two people Mathilde needs to speak with until she can get into contact with Heideck:

Kragg the Grim, and Grandmaster Wulfhart.

Mathilde having no idea what the consequences are is justification for Mathidle to seek urgent spiritual counseling from the experts.
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It'd be nice if the results for talking to Kragg were as benign as a metaphysical health checkup - certainly, if the option to talk wins, that's the result I'll be hoping for from the dice.

But I don't think it's fearmongering to be concerned that the "conservative by dwarf standards" Kragg might not take the news particularly well.
 
DragonParadox said:
You know what I give up on this, I hope whatever rolls we have to do in the next updates update turn out OK, I would much rather be wrong than right in this instance.
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I just want this shit to be done with and hopefully not fuck everything over because people invented an excuse to go full disclosure and successfully managed to reduce all arguments to the contrary as objectively incorrect because it fails to align with the other side's objectively correct viewpoints.

Oh, and how they're apparently the paragons of cool and rational debate and never make mistakes while we fumble around enough that other people must punish us for our stupidity by voting against our position, that too, that's also something I want to be fucking done so I can go back to enjoying the quest I love without having to feel miserable watching a gigantic number tick up bit by bit and being powerless to do anything more to push against the tide of Objective Correctness and reasonable arguments.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
Given how chief rationale for refusing to talk seems to be "what if they throw a tantrum despite us being a Dwarf Friend and having been consistently useful and saving hundreds or even thousands of dwarf lives?", I don't think people understand that dwarfs are not, in fact, children with particularly poor impulse control.
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I don't think you understand how big of an issue the super conservative priest suspecting the magic super assassin of getting possessed by an enemy GOD is
 
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Alectai said:
I just want this shit to be done with and hopefully not fuck everything over because people invented an excuse to go full disclosure and successfully managed to reduce all arguments to the contrary as objectively incorrect because it fails to align with the other side's objectively correct viewpoints.

Oh, and how they're apparently the paragons of cool and rational debate and never make mistakes while we fumble around enough that other people must punish us for our stupidity.
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I am not sure you are making a good argument against those who vote for full disclosure, if that is your intention.
What you said, once we remove salt, was basically "they counter every argument with a counterargument", which is...thanks for the endorsement????
 
Varano said:
A disadvantage of telling them about being compromised by Mork and that we worship the God of thieves will remove any existing trust, increasing mistrust regarding her and validate Kraggs suspicions.

See what I did there?
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They trusted Mathilde with their treasure, and Mathilde told them what happened, so why would they distrust her, when she has been honest? Plus Mathilde didn't steal any treasure. Plus there's the ranger dwarf who can vouch for her.

If she can't be trusted why, would she tell them this sensitive information in the first place?
 
ctulhuslp said:
I am not sure you are making a good argument against those who vote for full disclosure, if that is your intention.
What you said, once we remove salt, was basically "they counter every argument with a counterargument", which is...thanks for the endorsement????
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Well, yes, you're correct of course! Your opinions and citations are just objectively better after all, it helps that our entire position is just flat out gee golly wrong and we need to be educated by the perfectly arguing mass in favor of pure discl..

Fuck it, I'm out, I'm not letting you people bait me into infracting myself.
 
Varano said:
I don't think you understand how big of an issue the magic super assassin getting possessed by an enemy GOD is
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And if at Mathilde is at very real risk at being hijacked again, in her own mind? It sounds rather irresponsible for Mathilde not to take precautions, but spiritual defense is not quite her area of expertise.
 
Alratan said:
We've already had it confirmed by BoneyM that Kragg would be insulted by the idea that his knowledge of dwarven applied theology based on his experience as a dwarf and priest of a Living Ancestor was relevant to Greenskin applied theology.
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Kragg would be insulted if we compared greenskin gods to his own, but that doesn't mean he has no useful insights or that we can't ask him in a polite way.
 
Varano said:
I don't think you understand how big of an issue the magic super assassin getting possessed by an enemy GOD is
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The joke is that nobody understands it, Mathilde included.
If it were Tzeentch possessing us, it would at least make sense.


And, again: we were not purely "possessed", Mork does not do possessing humans. Our best guess is that we accidentally hijacked the Story of Mork's Chosen. That's qualitatively different from being possessed by some demon.
 
vsh said:
Kragg would be insulted if we compared greenskin gods to his own, but that doesn't mean he has no useful insights or that we can't ask him in a polite way.
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Or would the dwarf that clings to life through pure spite be insulted at the very concept that the knowledge would be cross-applicable, and so refuse to acknowledge it.
 
Varano said:
I don't think you understand how big of an issue the magic super assassin getting possessed by an enemy GOD is
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and I don't think that getting influenced by an enemy GOD during a ritual directly related to said GOD were we acted according to the themes of said GOD is as big of a consern as people are portraying it as because it is a nearly irrepeatable freak occurance that can't be stopped by anything that a mortal can accomplish anyway.
 
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